Consider the possibility we lose

[tomsa34]

Now I hate to be the one to play devils advocate here but someone should. What if we lose out against the FDA? What happens if the FDA takes a dump on all of our best intentions and attempts to save vaping as we know it? Where do we go from there? Outside of stock up on mods, coils, juice etc. I realy have no answers myself but many of you are much wiser than myself.

We can't just all go back to smoking, and I don't really believe the FDA is going to concede much ground when it comes to regulating the life out of this industry if we fail to stop them. Could we rebrand, repurpose, re apply, call mods and juice something they aren't in hopes to maybe survive through a loophole? What are your thoughts everyone? We all need to consider the alternative, fight the best we can but prepare for the worst.

 

[JMarca]

No matter what we will lose, we were never aiming at wining just damage control.

They won't EVER ban e-cigs that's never going to happen it would be financial suicide for their tax dollars. The goal here is to not let them rip us off the way they rip off tobacco users, that's the REAL fight. They will impose a tax on these things the question is how far will they regulate and will they screw over the small vendors we have today.

A "loss" in my opinion would be they screwing over new vapers with insane taxes impossible FDA regs for new upcoming products and them putting us back into the smoking corner not allowing us to vape in public anymore.

A "win" would be them actually seeing this product as something that can potentially help people, not trying to rip us all off and lessening the regs on new products and companies coming into the market. Also not putting us back into the smoking zone areas.

Either way in the end it's a win for them because they only care about tax dollars and that's exactly why they're pushing the FDA for a swift decision so they can start making money sooner rather than later.

AGAIN, a vape ban will NEVER happen.

 

[tomsa34]

I just don't share your certainty in anything when it comes to the long arm of the fed. Not to go political, its just that this administration has done alot of things I never thought I would see happen and the FDA is as much a part of that as any other entity. Now with that said I understand what you are saying. Heavy taxation will be just as prohibitive to new and old vapers as an all out ban. If juices and rigs get heavily taxed then it could happen where there is little to no cost benefit in switching. Being as most Americans think with there wallets this could be disastrous for all parties (vapers, modders, juice makers and the like). So what then? I'd hazard a guess that alot of current vapers switched due to the savings vs analogs.

It is common place that regulations turn into heavy taxes.

 

[JMarca]

I just don't share your certainty in anything when it comes to the long arm of the fed. Not to go political, its just that this administration has done alot of things I never thought I would see happen and the FDA is as much a part of that as any other entity. Now with that said I understand what you are saying. Heavy taxation will be just as prohibitive to new and old vapers as an all out ban. If juices and rigs get heavily taxed then it could happen where there is little to no cost benefit in switching. Being as most Americans think with there wallets this could be disastrous for all parties (vapers, modders, juice makers and the like). So what then? I'd hazard a guess that alot of current vapers switched due to the savings vs analogs.

It is common place that regulations turn into heavy taxes.

Ask yourself this... of all the dumb things they've ever done have they ever done anything that hurts their tax revenue? Not likely!

They can do alot of damage to this industry without banning it outright, that's what I'd gladly fight for, but the scare of them eliminating the market, that will never happen. It could get really bad to where no one would want to even try it and that would be just as bad but it's not going away. They've even tried to ban all imports from china in the past.

 

[tomsa34]

That really was the point of my post, I should have been more clear. It was not intended to bring up the argument of ban vs tax but the outcome of a heavy tax. What would be our loophole in that scenario?

 

[rzil]

Now I hate to be the one to play devils advocate here but someone should. What if we lose out against the FDA? What happens if the FDA takes a dump on all of our best intentions and attempts to save vaping as we know it? Where do we go from there? Outside of stock up on mods, coils, juice etc. I realy have no answers myself but many of you are much wiser than myself.

We can't just all go back to smoking, and I don't really believe the FDA is going to concede much ground when it comes to regulating the life out of this industry if we fail to stop them. Could we rebrand, repurpose, re apply, call mods and juice something they aren't in hopes to maybe survive through a loophole? What are your thoughts everyone? We all need to consider the alternative, fight the best we can but prepare for the worst.

They can't outlaw everything because the materials are all used in different industries and how can 1 outlaw metal tubes ? or batteries ? seems like they do not understand that it's a lost battle for them .

Funny ah ? they want to ban the 1 thing that people can make themselves what makes it impossible to stop but when it comes to tobacco smokes they are not even thinking about banning those.

 

[tomsa34]

My thoughts exactley. How can they tax all things involved in vaping when really all the parts are quite ambiguous on there own? Part of me feels that it is a mute point for the FDA. We can't underestimate the fed though

 

[fraychek]

I would still vape if it cost MORE than smoking. I vape to not smoke, not to save money, although saving money would be a nice side effect if it ever happened.

 

[rzil]

No matter what we will lose, we were never aiming at wining just damage control.

They won't EVER ban e-cigs that's never going to happen it would be financial suicide for their tax dollars. The goal here is to not let them rip us off the way they rip off tobacco users, that's the REAL fight. They will impose a tax on these things the question is how far will they regulate and will they screw over the small vendors we have today.

A "loss" in my opinion would be they screwing over new vapers with insane taxes impossible FDA regs for new upcoming products and them putting us back into the smoking corner not allowing us to vape in public anymore.

A "win" would be them actually seeing this product as something that can potentially help people, not trying to rip us all off and lessening the regs on new products and companies coming into the market. Also not putting us back into the smoking zone areas.

Either way in the end it's a win for them because they only care about tax dollars and that's exactly why they're pushing the FDA for a swift decision so they can start making money sooner rather than later.

AGAIN, a vape ban will NEVER happen.

I don't think we are the real objective here , they probably have done their research and they realize that people who are already deep into this are not backing away and will find their ways to bypass any ban thrown at them .
I think they are actually aiming for the current smokers , before you started vaping would you go for it if there was no option other than D.I.Y? , maybe so but other smokers would use it as another excuse not to switch to vaping , along with the fear mongering of the media and politicians .

 

[WillyZee]

my biggest fear is the stranglehold they could put on nicotine ... they could ban online sales and make nicotine very hard to obtain.

They could literally hand the distribution of eLiquid over to heavily taxed BT ... many of the juice venders will not be able to financially comply to outrageous fees, so unfortunately, it will be game over for them ... I can honestly see some established juice venders actually being bought by BT (even a 5P wouldn't shock me).

 

[Huh?!]

You can still order from overseas. Would it suck for local vendors? Yes. But the fact is if regulations are effected that impose heavy taxes, there is still a source to get our vape on from. We aren't the only country that currently vapes at an "affordable" price.

Now, taking my thought a step further, the feds could then try to enact a law that prohibits mailing of such items. However would not come for a long time.

 

[JMarca]

They can't outlaw everything because the materials are all used in different industries and how can 1 outlaw metal tubes ? or batteries ? seems like they do not understand that it's a lost battle for them .

Funny ah ? they want to ban the 1 thing that people can make themselves what makes it impossible to stop but when it comes to tobacco smokes they are not even thinking about banning those.

They aren't thinking about banning e-cigs either, they just want as much money as they can get off them. They are not trying to ban anything here, they just want heavy regulation. It would turn the commercial side of this industry upside down if they get their way, would you still be able to get them yes but not from where you et them now.

 

[denali_41]

we won't lose ,only be heavily regulated .there is too much money to be lost if ecigs get banned !!!


nic can be acquired from other sources ,not just the tobacco plant

 

[supertrunker]

The sad facts of the case are that even in legislative hearings there is some old ponce carrying on about how flavours are marketed at kids. The FDA does not have the authority to ban anything, but the regulation they may impose could amount to the same thing. Nothing over strength x etc..an impossible approval process..

Whether that is able to stop those of us with 2 decades of liquid stored and the ability to make all our own mods if we need, we'll see. But what it would do is to stop current smokers thinking of trying an alternative that is a little (err about 1000x) safer than burning tobacco, because the closer the costs are to cigarettes, the less inclined they'd be to bother.

Given the annual deaths from smoking in the US alone, i consider an attack on e-cigarettes a willful refusal to acknowledge the facts of their safety compared to combustible tobacco, and organisations with lung/cancer and so on in their names are doing those that currently suffer from these things and those that will undoubtedly follow a grave (no pun) disservice.

T

 

[JMarca]

I do believe e-liquids will come with a heavy tax and possibility may decline in quality and variety if they impose these regulations to have each individual e liquid certified. So I definitely see the point when I see people stacking up on base Nicotine. I think if we can find some off shore or even US based Nic supplier that can still operate under regulation we'd be ok. I do have about a liter of 100mg in the freezer but I don't think my wife would appreciate much more than that in there.

The problem with regulation is all these quality liquids we have now can become too expensive to regulate if the FDA has their way, therefore they'd go out of buisness and really the only people left that could afford these certifications would be big tobacco and that would be a tragedy. It might not impact us as much as it does the newer vaper however, alot of us over the years have learned to DIY but someone new wouldn't have a clue.

 

[tomsa34]

Nicotine will be where we encounter issues. If it becomes prohibitivley expensive or unavailable I worry that people would turn to unsafe "bathtub" style extractions and the like. Also the unscrupulous industry that will emerge in the wake of heavy taxes selling and profiting off of poor quality nicotine and the sort.

I have no doubt that the advanced vapers will have no problem circumventing any problems that may arise. I worry about new, and would be vapers. We want to save lives here ya know?

*This is all just speculation, and not intended at all to be fear inducing or anything close. Please take everything I say in this thread with a grain of salt, again I am just playing devils advocate in order to get this discussion moving and possibly helping to solve some problems before they arise

 

[Wow1420]

we won't lose ,only be heavily regulated .there is too much money to be lost if ecigs get banned !!!


nic can be acquired from other sources ,not just the tobacco plant

I could not disagree more. Heavy regulation as stated in the deeming proposal would be a big-time loss. Only big-tobacco companies selling cig-a-likes and disposables have pockets deep enough to jump through the registration and new product application hoops.

There is no practical way for an individual (non-chemist) to extract a meaningful amount of clean, pure,nicotine from any source.

 

[XJ-linux]

Someone needs to figure out how to crank out powdered or solid nicotine pellets we can store with little degradation in concentration for decades. Then you just need to get flavor and PG/VG mixed and add the nicotine. Only reason I don't stock up on 100mg nicotine base is I don't have freezer space to stick 2 decades of it away and keep below 32 degrees.

 

[rzil]

Someone needs to figure out how to crank out powdered or solid nicotine pellets we can store with little degradation in concentration for decades. Then you just need to get flavor and PG/VG mixed and add the nicotine. Only reason I don't stock up on 100mg nicotine base is I don't have freezer space to stick 2 decades of it away and keep below 32 degrees.

The problem is that solid nicotine is highly dangerous , I wouldn't want such thing in my house especially when i got my nephews visiting their cool uncle

 

[tomsa34]

Yeah, I wonder if you could evaporate nicotine liquid into a powder and store it that way? That is bordering on the unsafe side though as the majority of people do not have the skills required to handle concentrated nicotine powder.