Contact Micro Coils Vs Spaced Coils

[SLIPPY_EEL]

i straightened out some 20g by twisting a strand in a drill whilst holding the tail with pliers, just to see how it does when tension wrapped, tension wrapped with two sets of pliers and a drill bit is as far as im willing to go, well anyway, it took a good while to get the coil firing smooth, only after agitating the wraps a few times

the coil reacted the same as a coil with wire unstraightened/used straight from the spool without twisting

 

[MacTechVpr]

i straightened out some 20g by twisting a strand in a drill whilst holding the tail with pliers, just to see how it does when tension wrapped, tension wrapped with two sets of pliers and a drill bit is as far as im willing to go, well anyway, it took a good while to get the coil firing smooth, only after agitating the wraps a few times

the coil reacted the same as a coil with wire unstraightened/used straight from the spool without twisting

Takes a lot more strain to stretch 20 slip. And I'm almost afraid to consider you'd do to yourself if you had that kind of power in your hands.



Seriously, I'd imagine you'd need a jig to get to that point. All coils will heat from the center. That's not what the effect is. It's more direct surface contact aiding oxidation. Certainly 20 AWG can benefit. It'll get interesting when one of us gets the time, opportunity and resources to start looking at the actual electrical input/output consequences. I've attempted to enlist a few who might help. And I'm working on it. But the science is solid and there should be efficiency benefits for single and multi wire of that mass. Can we use it effectively? Dunno. Personally for fun slip, i like a little waste. Diffusion's great and the big cloud machines are awesome. That's not my mission as you know but I enjoy it as much as the next guy. Efficiency for getting there, that's a good question. I think certainly it's there to be had. But I think you'd need a serious jig like Bill's to get there.

On the other side of adhesion with a micro as I've been suggesting lately is a super-hot micro (including leads). Convo's I've been having with supe and other's on here and off. An observation I think a loud of cloud jockey's may have missed. Wicked right that kind of extraordinary heat concentration's gotta be a thrill for someone. I've tried to avoid posting them as again not what I'm after with those comin' up. But a couple got through.

Either way slip whether electrical hand wound precision or powerhouse showcase winds, we're dinosaurs already. Our days are numbered if the regulated/regulator one-size-fits-all guv types have their way with us all this'll be a passing fanciful moment. That's why the urgency on my part if folks think I'm trying to stir a frenzy. I'm not. Just more vapers.

As for 20, I'd say get jiggy with it. I've no experience on that frontier and would be very interesting. I'm workin' 24 extensively right now and so far it can't stand up to a hand wind. The response is good. I've seen others tension 22 with good and detectable response. But too few to tell if it can be done consistently by the average person. I think 22's about the limit without a jig.

Any news always welcome. Love your stuff whatever you do slip.

Take care and good luck.

 

[The.Drifter]

Took a little longer than I had anticipated, but I finally ran 30ml of my favorite Gunking juice thru my spaced coils.

Here is a shot of the original wick build for comparison:

and here are the results after about 10 days and 30ml:

as you can see, there is some buildup starting to form between the coil spaces.

Normally I build macro contact coils at the same ohm range (0.5) but wanted to see how the spaced coils held up in comparison. I am really pleased with the results so far on the spaced coils. On my contact coils I get about 10ml thru those coils before I have to dry burn and rewick because the coils are covered in black buildup.

I will keep on running this build and run another 30ml thru and post the results when that milestone is hit.

 

[Flavored]

^ how's the vape compare?

 

[The.Drifter]

^ how's the vape compare?

I think the contact coils have a slightly denser vape but the flavor seems to be about the same for me. I do get more juice pops with the spaced coils compared to the contact coils.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Took a little longer than I had anticipated, but I finally ran 30ml of my favorite Gunking juice thru my spaced coils.

Here is a shot of the original wick build for comparison:

I will keep on running this build and run another 30ml thru and post the results when that milestone is hit.

I'm trying to get a hold of an original Aris for testing from a juice maker I know. That is one nice build on that. I dunno from gunk other than more wire more hung. But you need more power to produce more transport of juice. And more juice is what gives us more flavor at the end of the day. We shouldn't let that flavor our observations but that's the reasoned expectation.

Hit us up with your results. I wish my gunky juices were that benevolent…on anything.

Good luck.



p.s. Did I see you driftin' at that other basement lounge?

 

[The.Drifter]

I'm trying to get a hold of an original Aris for testing from a juice maker I know. That is one nice build on that. I dunno from gunk other than more wire more hung. But you need more power to produce more transport of juice. And more juice is what gives us more flavor at the end of the day. We shouldn't let that flavor our observations but that's the reasoned expectation.

Hit us up with your results. I wish my gunky juices were that benevolent…on anything.

Good luck.



p.s. Did I see you driftin' at that other basement lounge?

Thanks, glad you like the coils on that build. I've been pleased with the results so far.

Yes, that's me too down under

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks, glad you like the coils on that build. I've been pleased with the results so far.

Yes, that's me too down under

I like anything that's well built (especially if they're blonde, about 5'7" and friendly).



In vaping…it's good to have a backup.

Good luck.

 

[RGLP4Lyfe]

I like anything that's well built (especially if they're blonde, about 5'7" and friendly).



In vaping…it's good to have a backup.

Good luck.

Yes. We all need back-ups for our "back-ups!" Even though mine are all well built, i build and buy more an more. Back-ups x20!

My love- Kawa green Reo grand LP w/ TRA Super light door, with TOBH and chuff top!

 

[Nicktterrell]

Not to sound lighthearted or anything, is it possible to make a contact coil without a torch? Please don't answer that torch is cheap; I'm homeless. All I've got is a pair of pliers. Tried using cigarette lighter didn't work, but heated the pliers all right.

I can't help but think that this is a troll... Homeless but can afford to vape?
Regardless, I'll answer the question anyway; wrap the coils, put them in your mod, and dry fire them without cotton to heat them, then pinch them together with your pliers. Be careful not to touch them WHILE you fire or the electricity will short through the pliers.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I find the coils with slight spacing to greatly increase run time with gunky NET's. Also these coils with small even spaces seem to give a smooth consistent vape, smoother than contact coils. It has been mentioned that contact coils are more efficient, and in an earlier post in this thread I mentioned something to the effect of spaced coils being less efficient and requiring slight changes to match the contact coil, but the reality has turned out to be that my batteries are lasting at least as long as they were before, and I am getting a better vape experience. Another observation that surprised me was when I built my first intentionally-spaced coil, and I fired it (juiced up) with no cap on the RDA. The vapor dispersion is completely different to a contact coil.

I'm pretty well done with contact coils. No amount of theory or speculation will change that for now, its just my opinion from my own observations. That doesn't mean I can't learn anything from the contact coil proponents, in fact everything I know about coil winding is from them, and I thank them very much for that knowledge, especially Super_X, and I appreciate it. I guess that leads to the question, how far apart are they

Firs Ian, thanks for your post and I'm glad that you're enjoying a great vape. However, it seems to me that your above statement is rather absolute and we don't really gain anything by it. Like I said, happy that you are. But it's your experience. Let me shed some light with a little anecdote.

Back in the Eighties a certain prominent motorcycle manufacturer decided to protest the dumping of motorcycles on U.S. shores. They were exhibiting a price advantage through government sanctions in Japan that was seen as unfair. In their infinite wisdom our government chose to attack performance and regulated the sale of 750cc class bikes. Well, the Japanese makers response was sweet. They started producing 700cc motorcycles, effectively destroking the 750cc class. It was brilliant. These motorcycles ran utterly smooth and efficiently under the lower stress loads and having a higher mass to combustion ratio running the same blocks with smaller cylinders.

What I submit Ian is that you have destroked your vape.

Accordingly you should see a smoother, cooler less and less gunkier vape. You're producing less. Less production, less stress. Also less vapor and flavor. But you seem comfortable at that level.

My question then…is why not just design for that in an efficient way?

When you build a tensioned version of a contact micro coil you have optimized the insulation of that microcoil and can achieve no greater efficiency (thermal transfer) from a coil of that wire length designed that way. That is the very purpose of the technology…to achieve the most practical way to produce such an element.

It's not a style, not a wind nor a preference. It's a science.

I would ask you if you ever have successfully built a t.m.c.? If you had, you would have observed the very result you are claiming at a higher delivered power level. Or you could target that temperature level you prefer with greater efficiency…also producing the result you desire.

I would ask that rather than an absolute generalization that we actually compare apples and oranges.

However, you've made an admirable case for your own convictions and I respect that.

Thank you and good luck.

 

[f1vefour]

I can't help but think that this is a troll... Homeless but can afford to vape?
Regardless, I'll answer the question anyway; wrap the coils, put them in your mod, and dry fire them without cotton to heat them, then pinch them together with your pliers. Be careful not to touch them WHILE you fire or the electricity will short through the pliers.

Where I live the homeless shelter provides homeless folks with ego kits, so don't be too quick to judge

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

Takes a lot more strain to stretch 20 slip. And I'm almost afraid to consider you'd do to yourself if you had that kind of power in your hands.



Seriously, I'd imagine you'd need a jig to get to that point. All coils will heat from the center. That's not what the effect is. It's more direct surface contact aiding oxidation. Certainly 20 AWG can benefit. It'll get interesting when one of us gets the time, opportunity and resources to start looking at the actual electrical input/output consequences. I've attempted to enlist a few who might help. And I'm working on it. But the science is solid and there should be efficiency benefits for single and multi wire of that mass. Can we use it effectively? Dunno. Personally for fun slip, i like a little waste. Diffusion's great and the big cloud machines are awesome. That's not my mission as you know but I enjoy it as much as the next guy. Efficiency for getting there, that's a good question. I think certainly it's there to be had. But I think you'd need a serious jig like Bill's to get there.

On the other side of adhesion with a micro as I've been suggesting lately is a super-hot micro (including leads). Convo's I've been having with supe and other's on here and off. An observation I think a loud of cloud jockey's may have missed. Wicked right that kind of extraordinary heat concentration's gotta be a thrill for someone. I've tried to avoid posting them as again not what I'm after with those comin' up. But a couple got through.

Either way slip whether electrical hand wound precision or powerhouse showcase winds, we're dinosaurs already. Our days are numbered if the regulated/regulator one-size-fits-all guv types have their way with us all this'll be a passing fanciful moment. That's why the urgency on my part if folks think I'm trying to stir a frenzy. I'm not. Just more vapers.

As for 20, I'd say get jiggy with it. I've no experience on that frontier and would be very interesting. I'm workin' 24 extensively right now and so far it can't stand up to a hand wind. The response is good. I've seen others tension 22 with good and detectable response. But too few to tell if it can be done consistently by the average person. I think 22's about the limit without a jig.

Any news always welcome. Love your stuff whatever you do slip.

Take care and good luck.

Hi Mac

Yer, i'm probably not giving the 20g enough oomph to get sufficiant stretch by TMC standards, getting it to stretch is only half the battle, a heavy duty tool would be required to keep the coil from opening back up LoL something like molegrips with a hard rubber or plastic inlay, something with teeth so as it could hold any length coil(the teeth would stop the grips from squeezing or altering the coil's leg's).

When i've made coil' s with thinner wire's like 24-32gauge and have tension wrapped to eel standards i noticed compared to a normal wrapped coil that the tensioned when heated in a mod will heat up along both leg's and instead of taking the normal route you want it to take it seem's to bypass that and takes an against the grain route between the leg's jumping from wrap to wrap with maybe a tiny ziggyzag here or there, i only get this with coils ive tensioned i dont think ive seen this on normal side by side wrapped coils but i did manage to get this phenomenon with the 20g A1 Kanthal.

What does the electricity do or what path does it normally take when you've done a proper TMC regardless of gauge ?
I just like to fanny about with wire & see what is possible & what is poss with minimum tool's and brute force, i'm not in it to get perfecto TMC's.

Speak soon

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hi Mac

Yer, i'm probably not giving the 20g enough oomph to get sufficiant stretch by TMC standards, getting it to stretch is only half the battle, a heavy duty tool would be required to keep the coil from opening back up LoL something like molegrips with a hard rubber or plastic inlay, something with teeth so as it could hold any length coil(the teeth would stop the grips from squeezing or altering the coil's leg's).

When i've made coil' s with thinner wire's like 24-32gauge and have tension wrapped to eel standards i noticed compared to a normal wrapped coil that the tensioned when heated in a mod will heat up along both leg's and instead of taking the normal route you want it to take it seem's to bypass that and takes an against the grain route between the leg's jumping from wrap to wrap with maybe a tiny ziggyzag here or there, i only get this with coils ive tensioned i dont think ive seen this on normal side by side wrapped coils but i did manage to get this phenomenon with the 20g A1 Kanthal.

What does the electricity do or what path does it normally take when you've done a proper TMC regardless of gauge ?
I just like to fanny about with wire & see what is possible & what is poss with minimum tool's and brute force, i'm not in it to get perfecto TMC's.

Speak soon

A very astute physics students did a nice write up on this phenomena which I labelled the effect in my blog.

In brief, you get a very fast concentration of heat at the center when the electrons encounter this nearly-continuous short. But then you get a streamlined uniformity of flow following the circuit path as oxidation sets in. It's an effect you see in all solenoids but it is enhanced when you overcome the short and the better you do (the more uniform the oxidation). All the variations you refer to and they exist slip there's no perfect coil, are indications of deviation. Small gaps, slight differences in turn tension, or imbalance of lead tension, imperfections in the run-out of the coil ؅the list is long. I just kinda freaked out finding this because tension just FLATTENS most of these out. But you're right not necessarily all. However, the tighter tension gets it the greater the chance that further oxidation will. And working in logistics and manufacturing many years…any time you find any simple way to cure physical obstacles bro you've got something there. Whether it's working on your car or making a space shuttle. You want to find efficiencies in the real world of getting it done.

Working with thicker wire makes getting to a micro easier but you tend to hide a lot of the imperfections. Vape still may be acceptable if you're not venting too much heat to air. But I have to think and now so many of the pro builders I've been sharing with that getting that energy maxed out on the wick does make a difference to the better. That's to say if you want diffusion of the density it's probably best to get those kinds of clouds with airflow effects rather than increasing the ratio of coil energy vented to air. Which a looser wind will do.

At the end of the day we seek the pleasurable middle ground somewhere for our vape. I'm only interested in using nature to help us getting there. We're all learning as we go slip. That's why I love vaping.

Hey at least I finally made the time to get away from the dang Protanks long enough to do some 24's. Gimme a little credit, huh. It's only taken me sixteen months. I must be slow or somethin'.



Vape on!

 

[atroph]

Please explain the "all solenoids" reference above. I think it is a context issue but as it is now it doesn't make sense. Solenoids don't rely on shorts or oxidation of the wires.


Also I don't believe that the "electrical short" theory is quite correct. If this was true then all coils with touching wraps would read a short when placed on the atomizer and the resistance would dynamically change when heated. We know this is not true as all tightly wrapped coils would not fire on mods with protection. The only way that I have gotten a coil resistance to drastically change is to directly apply moderate pressure to the coil while reading it on a meter. Even then it was not a short. Microseconds or not this is illogical. I believe that the nature of kanthal in general makes this "short" theory next to impossible due to the make of the wire. NI200 otoh is a different animal and DNA40 users are indeed experiencing too low of resistance when the wraps are touching.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Please explain the "all solenoids" reference above. I think it is a context issue but as it is now it doesn't make sense. Solenoids don't rely on shorts or oxidation of the wires.

What is "the effect" I was referring to? Did you read the reddit? I never stated solenoids rely on shorts or oxidation. The effect described the initial concentration of electrons at a coil's center. That's what I was talkin' about.

Also I don't believe that the "electrical short" theory is quite correct. If this was true then all coils with touching wraps would read a short when placed on the atomizer and the resistance would dynamically change when heated. We know this is not true as all tightly wrapped coils would not fire on mods with protection. The only way that I have gotten a coil resistance to drastically change is to directly apply moderate pressure to the coil while reading it on a meter. Even then it was not a short. Microseconds or not this is illogical. I believe that the nature of kanthal in general makes this "short" theory next to impossible due to the make of the wire. NI200 otoh is a different animal and DNA40 users are indeed experiencing too low of resistance when the wraps are touching.

A common short you and I both should agree is not what were discussing. What we all know we encounter in vaping is the electrical effect of a short or faulty continuity, i.e. the equiv of a bad contact post connection, disruption of flow. A similar effect. So yes, you're right, it is a context issue. We don't really have a word for what we experience and can get balled up in descriptions because we're not supposed to be contacting our wires in common electronics. I've relented at the suggestion of an engineer on the Protank Micro thread to refer to it there as a thermal short better describing the effects of asymmetry and inadequate oxidation.

So yes I'll acknowledge that I am relating thermal and electrical inefficiency to the word short.

And yes in some respects we are going to need to establish some new terms…hopefully that are functionally relevant and so better understood. My bad if I jumped the gun on this thread.

I've suggested that winding with strain to an optimal state of contact promotes the best potential for maximally uniform oxidation. What we want. We can't vape effectively or efficiently without it using Kanthal. So I devised a way to do create such a rational wind simply, even for a beginner. And once achieved a t.m.c. does away in good measure with most of the gremlins in both common and thermal shorts.

Works for most. And that's crucially important to what I'm trying to achieve which is getting new vapers on to more of what the rest of us enjoy. Just sayin' atroph. They are my concern.

So I'm not trying to change anyone's religion here. Only getting newcomers in particular wanting to try rayon and DNA40's and everything coming down the pike…vs a standard that works consistently for them.

Glad to see that. Then they can be informed and effective judges of what's the best vape for them.

Good luck and a great vape.

 

[etherealink]

Mac, just from playing with it, I can tell you that 20 AWG can be tensioned but it takes considerable strength to do it by hand.

I will be trying it shortly with a drill-mounted jig and fire you some results

 

[etherealink]

A very astute physics students did a nice write up on this phenomena which I labelled the effect in my blog.

In brief, you get a very fast concentration of heat at the center when the electrons encounter this nearly-continuous short. But then you get a streamlined uniformity of flow following the circuit path as oxidation sets in. It's an effect you see in all solenoids but it is enhanced when you overcome the short and the better you do (the more uniform the oxidation). All the variations you refer to and they exist slip there's no perfect coil, are indications of deviation. Small gaps, slight differences in turn tension, or imbalance of lead tension, imperfections in the run-out of the coil Ø…the list is long. I just kinda freaked out finding this because tension just FLATTENS most of these out. But you're right not necessarily all. However, the tighter tension gets it the greater the chance that further oxidation will. And working in logistics and manufacturing many years…any time you find any simple way to cure physical obstacles bro you've got something there. Whether it's working on your car or making a space shuttle. You want to find efficiencies in the real world of getting it done.

Working with thicker wire makes getting to a micro easier but you tend to hide a lot of the imperfections. Vape still may be acceptable if you're not venting too much heat to air. But I have to think and now so many of the pro builders I've been sharing with that getting that energy maxed out on the wick does make a difference to the better. That's to say if you want diffusion of the density it's probably best to get those kinds of clouds with airflow effects rather than increasing the ratio of coil energy vented to air. Which a looser wind will do.

At the end of the day we seek the pleasurable middle ground somewhere for our vape. I'm only interested in using nature to help us getting there. We're all learning as we go slip. That's why I love vaping.

Hey at least I finally made the time to get away from the dang Protanks long enough to do some 24's. Gimme a little credit, huh. It's only taken me sixteen months. I must be slow or somethin'.



Vape on!

Mac, my brother-from-another-Mother... you are not slow, you are thorough.... perhaps OCD slow at times, but in a good way.

Enjoy the journey.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, my brother-from-another-Mother... you are not slow, you are thorough.... perhaps OCD slow at times, but in a good way.

Enjoy the journey.

I am the tortoise, not the hare. But I can raise hell at a party.



Good luck.

 

[CloudKick]

Nope just did another test. If I squeeze the wraps with a set of pliers the resistance will indeed change to something lower than what is actually there. Same thing happens when I use my fingers so it is not the metal pliers causing the difference. The wires within the wraps must have a miniscule opening in between the wraps. I wrapped these super tight and only got a lower ohm reading when I actually put pressure on the coil.

Lol just googled it. Kanthal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For heating, resistance wire must be stable in air when hot. Kanthal FeCrAl alloy forms a protective layer of aluminum oxide (alumina).[1] Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity; special techniques may be required to make good electrical connections.

I guess torquing them down in attys or the relatively long connections in clearos makes them have a "good" electrical connection.

I don't think it is a coating, but more a lack of conductivity of the wire itself. It is resistance wire after all

I tried going through all the replies and couldn't find if you found a definitive answer, but you mostly came to the correct conclusion yourself. You are using resistance wire, in any form it will never be a dead short. Ampacity is what drives the heat in your coil. If you wrap contact coils you're still using a material that has the same properties as a non contact coil, hence the resistance will be "similar". The reason it is not exactly the same is you're creating a larger path for the current to run through, and as it heats the resistance rises. As the resistance rises the path of least resistance becomes scattered throughout the coil and the current runs everywhere. I'm trying to put it in layman terms best I can without going into technical jargon. This is why the entire coil heats up.