Coordinated effort to KILL VAPING ?

[smoked25years]

I am open to hearing truths. I would like to point out a few things though.

1. Based on that paper it seems one of the criteria for Benzene to be present is if the flavoring contains benzaldehyde. How many and which flavors actually contain this apparent precursor for Benzene formation? Sounds like probable cherry picking to get the results they wanted.

You are incorrect. See figure 1 and table 1 in the article.

2. The found quantities were in the 1.X MICROGRAM range then they say the US ambient air contains 1 MICROGRAM anyway. This means that even what they found was essentially 0.X micrograms (since the air already contained 1 microgram before it even passed through the atomizer). So the concentration is barely above the ambient air in the US. OMGOZZORS we all gonna die!!! So that poster may as well have said "Breathing the natural air around you will expose you to Benzene, Formaldehyde, and other pollutants found in paint thinner, gasoline, and cigarettes and that it may kill you".

3. While people are crying about the 0.x micrograms in vapor IF you happen to be using a flavor that contains the precursor, actual cigarettes that no one is threatening to ban out of existence contains 200,000 micrograms!!! So even if their tests started with 100% clean air those 1.x microgram numbers are still negligible.

This is clearly not true. 750 is greater than 1. 5000 is greater than 1.

4. While they did tell us what wattage they used, they did not tell us the device types (of the two "tanks") or resistance of the coils. Therefore it is impossible to know or even begin to guess what temp they heated this up to for this to even occur. My guess and yes it is a guess, but it is highly likely they overheated the juice to get this to occur (similar to the formaldehyde issue).

That is not correct. Read the WHOLE article. They did specify the wattage, the devices and the resistance of the coils.

Bottom line, this is much ado about literally nothing. If I am going to be inhaling roughly the same amount of benzene as regular air, I may as well get my nic with it. Thanks for the concern, but I think I'll stick with vaping.

All of this said, I welcome more studies BUT they have to come with an HONEST discussion from them, not hyped up bovine excrement fear tactics over minuscule findings.

I will post the whole article for you.

 

[ScottP]

Thanks for posting the whole thing. Just as I suspected they are overheating it. I have used those EVODs and with those 1.2 ohm coils 6-8 watts was max you could use. They start tasting burnt at 10 watts and at 13 watts you would probably be scorching the wick. So while sure you CAN produce that nastiness with an ecig, you can't do it and still have any reasonable sort of normal taste. So I don't see this as a problem.

Again even IF you did vape the right combo and you could manage to stomach the burnt taste to get the 5000 mcg levels, that is still 1/40 (one fourtieth or 2.5%) of the levels in cigarettes, but nobody cares about that. This means even under the worst unrealistic conditions vaping is still 97.5% safer than smoking as far as benzene is concerned.

 

[charlie1465]

Interesting video we have long suspected this but this research actually provides some evidence. If collusion in the interest of gaining financial aid can be proved then this is worthy of an indictment is it not?

Perhaps there is someone out there willing to take this on...No win no fee?

With regard to the cited study this is just a sub-element of the original thread's collusion premise... so the question to ask here is where does the money/funding trail lead to.

I'm English and live in France and i'm wondering how much and at what level this occurs over here. If it does happen then it seems to be rarely effective at distorting common sense as born out by recent events in the UK concerning vaping

This may explain why I often hear things/actions coming from the states that I think are totally bonkers...so much so that it's become a general part of my thinking.

In my view this is corruption plain and simple and should lead to prosecution

 

[smoked25years]

I draw the line at buying the equipment and repeating the experiment. The answer to your question of whether there are any articles is yes. This was just one. You don't like it. Lots of others to read but I'm not willing to go to this much effort for all of the articles that exist.

There is a lot that we can benefit from studies of vaping. If something is bad, we can learn from it to change it for the better when possible. Some risks will be unavoidable but some won't.

 

[ScottP]

I draw the line at buying the equipment and repeating the experiment. The answer to your question of whether there are any articles is yes. This was just one. You don't like it. Lots of others to read but I'm not willing to go to this much effort for all of the articles that exist.

There is a lot that we can benefit from studies of vaping. If something is bad, we can learn from it to change it for the better when possible. Some risks will be unavoidable but some won't.

Here is the thing. I have no doubt that this study did in fact find what they claim to have found, so repeating the study is not necessary. My point is and has always been that ALL of these byproducts that CAN form in ecigs require being heated to the point of "partial combustion". However, at those levels the "flavor" (regardless of what it started as) will become stale ashtray flavored and so heating to these levels has a built in deterrent.

My other big concern is that every time they do prove some new chemical can be produced they over inflate the significance, make these outlandish posters, and try to scare people into not vaping despite the fact that smoking contains the same chemical only in MASSIVELY higher doses. Which is not only ridiculous, it is dishonest and could cost people their lives. Deterring someone from switching from 200,000 mcg of benzene to a product that in a worst case scenario only has 5000 mcg should be prosecuted the same as that girl that convinced her boyfriend to commit suicide, because that is exactly what they are doing.

 

[ScottP]

One side note. If you burn or even over cook food, and eat it, you will be ingesting many of these same chemicals as well.

 

[smoked25years]

Here is the thing. I have no doubt that this study did in fact find what they claim to have found, so repeating the study is not necessary. My point is and has always been that ALL of these byproducts that CAN form in ecigs require being heated to the point of "partial combustion". However, at those levels the "flavor" (regardless of what it started as) will become stale ashtray flavored and so heating to these levels has a built in deterrent.

My other big concern is that every time they do prove some new chemical can be produced they over inflate the significance, make these outlandish posters, and try to scare people into not vaping despite the fact that smoking contains the same chemical only in MASSIVELY higher doses. Which is not only ridiculous, it is dishonest and could cost people their lives. Deterring someone from switching from 200,000 mcg of benzene to a product that in a worst case scenario only has 5000 mcg should be prosecuted the same as that girl that convinced her boyfriend to commit suicide, because that is exactly what they are doing.

The marker keeps moving. The post was originally to answer yes to your question: "I mean has anyone ever seen or even heard of a report claiming".

Your claim now is that the studies (that you previously had never seen or even heard of) are not performed correctly. Of course, we would need to read those other articles to make an informed decision.

 

[United States]

These days there are folks trying to ban anything they themselves don't agree with. The nanny state says it is for our own good but it's really about control.

Control to a degree can be a good thing. Like making sure a chemical that is safe to eat, but creates volitiles when super heated is not present. I'm ok with that but what I'm not ok with is the adgenda driven knuckleheads who have the medias attention and used their new found fame to strap the little guy down to a government approved chair and spoon feed them government sanctioned nutrition.

Technology is a wonderful thing, but it also comes at a cost at times. Like the exploding vape pen, or polyunsaturated margerine. I mean it's like this; there was a time when draining blood from a sick guy seemed like a good idea. So did that fake butter that turned out to be worse than butter for arteries. Time worked it out.

These days vaping is becoming bigger and bigger. And now that folks who call 911 because McDonalds is out of McNuggets are vaping it is just a natural progression that haters found out about vaping too.

Concerted effort to kill vaping? Conjecture plays a roll in the matter. But things will unfold in time. I don't see the industry being completely banished anytime soon. Freedom of choices being reduced, yes.

But there's a lot of money to be extracted from all those fiending for their nicotine fix. Not my opinion, but of those who see vaping as an illness or a scurge. They think they've nearly wiped out cigarette smokers and now these vapers come along? "Oh no Skip" says Jane. "Look, it's cloud makers, they're going to poison the planet even more than plastic straws are".

Phewey on all that. Just relax, take a few nice flavor rich puffs and enjoy the new way to relax. It sure beats smoking.
Sit around and just let it happen? No way!! Just don't let it wreck your day is all I'm saying. Educate where you can by all means. And keep on the good foot.

 

[charlie1465]

With regard to the US system and corruption laws etc. This gives a pretty negatice exposition for the way your laws are set up around this type of thing..

 

[mattiem]

These days there are folks trying to ban anything they themselves don't agree with. The nanny state says it is for our own good but it's really about control.

Control to a degree can be a good thing. Like making sure a chemical that is safe to eat, but creates volitiles when super heated is not present. I'm ok with that but what I'm not ok with is the adgenda driven knuckleheads who have the medias attention and used their new found fame to strap the little guy down to a government approved chair and spoon feed them government sanctioned nutrition.

Technology is a wonderful thing, but it also comes at a cost at times. Like the exploding vape pen, or polyunsaturated margerine. I mean it's like this; there was a time when draining blood from a sick guy seemed like a good idea. So did that fake butter that turned out to be worse than butter for arteries. Time worked it out.

These days vaping is becoming bigger and bigger. And now that folks who call 911 because McDonalds is out of McNuggets are vaping it is just a natural progression that haters found out about vaping too.

Concerted effort to kill vaping? Conjecture plays a roll in the matter. But things will unfold in time. I don't see the industry being completely banished anytime soon. Freedom of choices being reduced, yes.

But there's a lot of money to be extracted from all those fiending for their nicotine fix. Not my opinion, but of those who see vaping as an illness or a scurge. They think they've nearly wiped out cigarette smokers and now these vapers come along? "Oh no Skip" says Jane. "Look, it's cloud makers, they're going to poison the planet even more than plastic straws are".

Phewey on all that. Just relax, take a few nice flavor rich puffs and enjoy the new way to relax. It sure beats smoking.
Sit around and just let it happen? No way!! Just don't let it wreck your day is all I'm saying. Educate where you can by all means. And keep on the good foot.

So did that fake butter that turned out to be worse than butter for arteries. Time worked it out.

More government control. I used and enjoyed Sheads (sp) Spread Country Crock fake butter for many many years until the government and their puppets decided it wasn't good for me. Formula changed and now it tastes like some kind of chemical mixed with dirt. Needless to say I no longer use it. I am 70 years old. I used it for a good 30 years. My arteries are just fine. My husbands arteries are just fine. My choice was taken away. That is just one tiny thing but one more thing taken away by those with an agenda and was basically told it was for my own good. I had no choice other than to no longer buy the product.

My vaping cannot be taken away. I have made sure of that but those with an agenda and the money to back them up have been trying and will continue to try to demonize this life saving technology until they can get total control of it. The bottom line is too much money is being lost by those that have grown rich through the years and they are fighting back with lies, half truths and pure deception. Once they have total control over it the lies will stop. The rich will get richer and all the little guys that built businesses around this technology will be out of business.

All this to say. We have too many folks with an agenda who are in the pocket of the ones that can fund that agenda. Young folks are being trained from a very young age to accept whatever they are being spoon fed. The brainwashed are much easier to control. Once upon a time one could pretty well believe what they saw. Even that isn't true today. Facts are being manipulated to prove what isn't true but will be believed by those that don't know any better and fail to question.

If you've not watched the series "Continuum" you might want to. Really far fetched but it gives us an idea as to what it could be like if one giant corporation had total control over us. The wealthy and those working directly for them to police everyone else live the good life. The rest of the folks are slaves or worse. I can actually see it happening if we allow it. Sadly though, I think we have already gone too far down that path to turn around now. The distance between rich and poor is getting wider every day and I fear before we know it we will find that there is no one left in the middle. I am glad I won't be around to see it. It isn't going to be a fun place to be.

 

[MacTechVpr]

More government control. I used and enjoyed Sheads (sp) Spread Country Crock fake butter for many many years until the government and their puppets decided it wasn't good for me. Formula changed and now it tastes like some kind of chemical mixed with dirt. Needless to say I no longer use it. I am 70 years old. I used it for a good 30 years. My arteries are just fine. My husbands arteries are just fine. My choice was taken away. That is just one tiny thing but one more thing taken away by those with an agenda and was basically told it was for my own good. I had no choice other than to no longer buy the product.

My vaping cannot be taken away. I have made sure of that but those with an agenda and the money to back them up have been trying and will continue to try to demonize this life saving technology until they can get total control of it. The bottom line is too much money is being lost by those that have grown rich through the years and they are fighting back with lies, half truths and pure deception. Once they have total control over it the lies will stop. The rich will get richer and all the little guys that built businesses around this technology will be out of business.

All this to say. We have too many folks with an agenda who are in the pocket of the ones that can fund that agenda. Young folks are being trained from a very young age to accept whatever they are being spoon fed. The brainwashed are much easier to control. Once upon a time one could pretty well believe what they saw. Even that isn't true today. Facts are being manipulated to prove what isn't true but will be believed by those that don't know any better and fail to question.

If you've not watched the series "Continuum" you might want to. Really far fetched but it gives us an idea as to what it could be like if one giant corporation had total control over us. The wealthy and those working directly for them to police everyone else live the good life. The rest of the folks are slaves or worse. I can actually see it happening if we allow it. Sadly though, I think we have already gone too far down that path to turn around now. The distance between rich and poor is getting wider every day and I fear before we know it we will find that there is no one left in the middle. I am glad I won't be around to see it. It isn't going to be a fun place to be.

Sad to think the train left the station long ago Matt. We live in a variable relative statistical universe everymore. Never mind the blood and guts on the floor or the frozen toes in the tent city nobody sees.

Good luck.

 

[stols001]

If corruption were prosecutable, a bunch of us would be writing a new declaration of independence... And then moving in a smoooothhh backward direction so as to not be accused of corruption ourselves. Etc.

It is long past time for an over haul I don't disagree. It's just that overhauling governments is so darned tricky.

Like, I think NY just passed a ballot measure or something that you can OWN a gun you just aren't allowed to take it outside. Ever. Etc. Kind of a neat workaround, and I'm sure it can't possibly stand? But until it's ruled unconstitutional pretty much all you can do is lie cuddled up to your bed at night.

Which, if I lived in NY, I might consider DOING. Mainly due to their tax structure, etc.

Anna

 

[United States]

When I saw one of Steve McQueens last movies "Tom Horne" it showed me the future for the average middle class working folks who made it possible for the new crop of politicians to take advantage of the ignorant crowd.

Then in the 1980's a president created an economy that made it much easier to reach that golden ring. The predecessors have been taking it back, one step at a time.

Many dictators realized the populace will fight more for a sandwich than a freedom. So little by little they've learned how to dole out free stuff while plucking away the rights of those same people.

I remember in the 90's watching a bunch of people who used to hold protest signs during Vietnam were in the ruling crowd. I thought "oh dear Lord, don't the hippies run the place" then one day I realized those folks are now in charge. A group who once shouted out about ultimate freedoms are now the ones trying to take away the freedoms to decide for yourself. And they have big money funding the whole thing.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Beauty of our system is that it only requires a reset. Problem is that our presumptuously divining politicians, jurists and other varied and sundry scalawags derive cover from convincing us we should conserve the mess of those who preceded them, burying us in "process", to the point that it couldn't possibly matter (as if).

I say, make it matter. Give 'em as much as they can handle…which isn't much.

Good luck.

 

[ScottP]

Control to a degree can be a good thing. Like making sure a chemical that is safe to eat, but creates volitiles when super heated is not present.

Here is the problem with making sure things that can create these chemicals are "not present". Practically everything that is safe to eat (both plant and animal based) as well as many harmful chemicals, contain or are made up of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen. These are the same three atoms that make up PG and VG and also the same three atoms that make up formaldehyde, benzene, and all the other "nasties" they are finding in vapes that are over heated. What a particular molecule is, is simply a matter of how many of each of these atoms is present in the molecule and how they are arranged. This is why over heating PG/VG or even normal food can create these bad molecules. Some of these chemicals can even be created from certain foods and drinks in your stomach during digestion (aspartame is really bad about this) as things get broken down and rearranged into other molecules. There are only two ways to prevent them from forming. Make sure the source product/food/drink is missing at least one of those atoms completely, OR prevent them from being heated or digested to the point the bad molecules can be formed. However to remove one of those elements would mean starting with completely new molecules (not PG or VG).

This is why these chemicals are found in cigarette smoke (and in much higher quantities). As I mentioned all plant matter contains these 3 atoms and when combusted they rearrange into all sorts of stuff. Cigarettes create more because they are more combusted than vaping. Even when juice is over heated it is only partially combusted resulting is less of these bad chemicals. So any way you slice it vaping is still significantly safer than smoking.

For reference:
PG = C3H8O2
VG = C3H8O3 (note only 1 extra oxygen atom vs PG, otherwise identical)
Formaldehyde = CH2O
Benzene = C6H6
Toluene = C6H5CH3

On a side note here are some fun links:
Benzene as a Chemical Hazard in Processed Foods
Benzene emitted from glowing charcoal
Formaldhyde is so dangerous yet it is used in vaccines according to the FDA:
Common Ingredients in U.S. Licensed Vaccines

Note in the first link that smoked foods seem worse probably because the smoke created from combusting the material to cook it is releasing extra benzene into the food as evidenced in the second link showing charcoal emits benzene.

I also really loved this quote from the first link:

"While studying the mechanism of benzene formation in carrot juice for children, Lachenmeier et al. found that some substances, such as β-carotene, phenylalanine, or terpenes, may decompose during processing to yield benzene"

Why is no one trying to "save the children" from benzene in carrot juice? Just saying.

Bottom line, if you want to completely avoid benzene, toluene, formaldhyde, and such you are going to have to move to a planet previously untouched by humans, grow your own food and then eat it raw.

 

[RayofLight62]

My take on the entire benzene story since I knew it: MTL vape at the lowest level that the coils allows, i. e. 8.5 W on a standard Nautilus coil of 1.8 Ohm, or 180 C.
In this way, the temperature is too low, including coil end-of-life, to form dangerous compounds.
DTL is another story, definitively more risky if you don't employ good TC.

 

[MacTechVpr]

My take on the entire benzene story since I knew it: MTL vape at the lowest level that the coils allows, i. e. 8.5 W on a standard Nautilus coil of 1.8 Ohm, or 180 C.
In this way, the temperature is too low, including coil end-of-life, to form dangerous compounds.
DTL is another story, definitively more risky if you don't employ good TC.

You can get the same or frankly even cleaner production at higher watts/amps with an optimal wire to wick distribution of power. It's not about too much but symmetrical consistency of thermal delivery. So no, the answer is not low watts. Early atomizers were notoriously dirty and easily under or overdriven. Neither is temp control a panacea as juice can just as unfavorably be inadequately vaporized (cooked) with inappropriately matched coils for the power level. More uniform and effective vaporization is the answer at whatever volume of output is desired.

Far more has to do with element design for a solution than is generally acknowledged or discussed. The real answers come with greater user understanding of the process of vaporization and its configuration to achieve safely consistent rewarding vape temp's and vaping experience.

Better that we have 100's of thou encouraged to pursue those beneficial methodologies which are already prevalent here rather than picking for needles of toxicity in the haystack of false equivalency that is general public knowledge about vaping.

To understand just how ludicrous our situation one might imagine how gov might undertake to regulate cooking. And that is what vaping most resembles.

If there's a failure it's that ECF is a ghost town compared to what it was and should have been.

Truly sad.

Good luck.

 

[ScottP]

Neither is temp control a panacea as juice can just as unfavorably be inadequately vaporized (cooked) with inappropriately matched coils for the power level.

This statement is wrong. It is absolutely 100% temperature that causes the breakdown of juice into these chemicals, thus as long as you set the temp (using temp control) to a point below where the breakdown occurs it cannot possibly breakdown. Now you may not get a great vape at that temp but then that is where the coils and such come into play.

 

[Katdarling]

Risking redundancy...

Depressing beyond-beyond, but vital to know.


Collusion | Dirty Details of the Coordinated effort to Kill Vaping | RegWatch

 

[MacTechVpr]

This statement is wrong. It is absolutely 100% temperature that causes the breakdown of juice into these chemicals, thus as long as you set the temp (using temp control) to a point below where the breakdown occurs it cannot possibly breakdown. Now you may not get a great vape at that temp but then that is where the coils and such come into play.

Scott, my above had nothing to do with whether or not breakdown occurs at high temps. I'm not criticizing TC's merits there.

Here's my take on this…temp over time Scott. Whatever artifacts may be present in juice will prove greater if in concentration. Those same increased ratios must then be present in the vapor stream.

What happens to juice (food) that's repeatedly heated to high temp? And in this state of reduction (i.e. concentration), when it is ultimately vaporized? Can we ack that under certain conditions of inadequate vaporization juice darkens in both tanks and rda's, for example? Isn't the buildup from our coils precisely this, un-vaporized solids, components of the juice that have been reduced?

What some may refer to as a "dirty" state of a coil is simply the accretion of these reductions over time. All the while that part of the concentration which is not deposited must contribute to the ratio of vaporized artifacts as they are eventually vaporized. Over-building for flow relative to effective power I think is commonplace. Without considering or isolating these circumstances, I surmise that's what may be seen in some tests.

I'll restate the premise this way, over-powering can char or cook juice quickly; whereas, under-powering for the juice flow rate may do this over time (if vaporization temps prove inadequate for the entire volume of flow).

How does TC model or predict this?

So, I don't believe temp control is a panacea. It has a valuable function I would agree but does not exclude the benefits of user knowledge as to the mechanics of vaporization.

Good luck.