Coordinated effort to KILL VAPING ?

[ScottP]

I'll restate the premise this way, over-powering can char or cook juice quickly; whereas, under-powering for the juice flow rate may do this over time (if vaporization temps prove inadequate for the entire volume of flow).

How does TC model or predict this?

Let me put it this way. Chicken needs to reach 160F to be considered "done". You can cook it in an oven at 100F for a thousand years and it will still never reach 160F.

Formaldehyde forms at between 430F and 450F (depending on PG/VG ratio). So if you set TC to 420F, it will be impossible to ever reach that 430-450F range even if you vaped a full 10ml tank in one really really long puff.

You have to remember the raw juice does NOT have formaldehyde, benzene, and things like that in it at all. Since the artifacts don't exist, concentration cannot make them greater. They are formed when the juice reaches specific temps that cause the Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen that make up the actual PG and VG to start breaking free and rearranging into completely new molecules such as these bad chemicals. Thus TC prevents the formation of these chemicals by not allowing the juice to reach temps where these chemicals can form.

 

[ScottP]

Scott, my above had nothing to do with whether or not breakdown occurs at high temps. I'm not criticizing TC's merits there.

Here's my take on this…temp over time Scott. Whatever artifacts may be present in juice will prove greater if in concentration. Those same increased ratios must then be present in the vapor stream.

What happens to juice (food) that's repeatedly heated to high temp? And in this state of reduction (i.e. concentration), when it is ultimately vaporized? Can we ack that under certain conditions of inadequate vaporization juice darkens in both tanks and rda's, for example? Isn't the buildup from our coils precisely this, un-vaporized solids, components of the juice that have been reduced?

What some may refer to as a "dirty" state of a coil is simply the accretion of these reductions over time. All the while that part of the concentration which is not deposited must contribute to the ratio of vaporized artifacts as they are eventually vaporized. Over-building for flow relative to effective power I think is commonplace. Without considering or isolating these circumstances, I surmise that's what may be seen in some tests.

I reread and realized I didn't address the rest of this adequately. As far as "coil gunk" (for lack of a better term) goes, I don't think anyone has ever scraped it and analyzed it to see what it is really made of, but the general consensus seems to be that it is caramelized sugars from the juice as sweeter juices build this up faster. Also this being a solid isn't being vaporized and thus will not be present in the vapor itself.

Darkening of juice can be explained by the fact that the nicotine itself darkens when heated, yet still remains nicotine.

Every vapor test I have seen (mostly around various aldehydes) and more recently benzene, all of them only show these chemicals being created in scenarios where the juice is over heated during the pull that was tested. Even then only in trace amounts unless you reach a scorched wick scenario. TC only really helps if you set it at a temp low enough to prevent the formation of these chemicals. Personally I vape at 435F while this is slightly inside the formaldehyde producing range, but the trace amounts I am producing is not much, if any higher than ambient air anyway.

Finally, even with the levels of the various chemicals they have found in overheating scenarios the concentrations of these chemicals is still significantly lower than smoking. So using this to dissuade people from switching to vaping is going to cost lives.

For me at least, until someone can show a lower temp test or a "dirty coil" test
that shows SIGNIFICANT levels of something dangerous, I am content to keep on vaping.

 

[RayofLight62]

Hello MacTechVpr,

I fully agree that a better and deeper knowledge of the Vapour production process is required, in order to minimise risk taking.

My suggestion of vaping at low temperature in an umbrella suggestion, certainly not a golden rule but a path of precaution when you know nothing about the boiling points of the components, nor the components, of an e-liquid.

When you buy an RTA, you get nothing in terms of instructions, power needed, heat transport and dissipation; when buying a wire, the TCR and resistance curve is unknown; the release of metal under power is unknown; how many nano liters of eliquid can a square centimeter of cotton wick transport per second? Clearly stated on the cotton package!

I don't want to continue, I think I gave the idea. All the analitics necessary for risk control are, clearly, missing.

I did some personal research because I needed some safety info, to decide if I could have continued to vape or not. It is frustrating that manufacturers doesn't release ANY data, and haven't identified a path of harm minimisation for vaping.

Again, only valid for myself, is the precautionary rule of vaping mostly at the lowest possible level. Secondly, vaping with TC below 200 C. Vaping unflavoured.
Spending time finding safety tested devices. Unsurprisingly, the Juul is one of the safest devices; incidentally it uses e-liquid in sparing quantities and a very stable TC.

To say the last. Vapers are getting lost on FB, this is why here is a "ghost town" compared to just few years ago. If we were good numbers, we could have forced the manufacturers to publish the data, and the reviewers to verify the safety and health of vape devices and components.

As things stand now, we can only hope and pray. And, when possible, give a nudge in the right direction to the manufacturers.

Edit. I did what I could for the gunk. Sugar, carbon in small quantities, and acrolein for most. The same chemical that forms on burned toast and French fries - chips in English.

 

[ScottP]

When you buy an RTA, you get nothing in terms of instructions, power needed, heat transport and dissipation; when buying a wire, the TCR and resistance curve is unknown; the release of metal under power is unknown; how many nano liters of eliquid can a square centimeter of cotton wick transport per second? Clearly stated on the cotton package!

When you buy an RTA they cannot possibly tell you the power needed because that depends on the coil YOU put in it. They cannot state how much liquid cotton can transport because that depends largely on on how compressed it is inside the coil you built. The TCR of TC capable wire is known.

Those that use TC properly do not need to know these things anyway (except TCR obviously). The reason is that wicks that transport more liquid cools the coil faster so TC increases wattage to adjust to maintain the correct temp. It also adjusts for air flow, and other factors that would normally affect temp in wattage mode.

The only real downfall to TC is making sure your mod does it correctly. For instance Smok and Sigelei mods are notoriously bad at TC.

 

[dthor68]

This is a great example of what is so very wrong with our country today. Sure, the tobacco industry is hurting due to the vaping industry. Of course they are going to do whatever they can to stop it. But at the same time, the video I just watched here looks like it was brought to us by the vaping industry. In the end, you are only going to believe in what you want to believe in. You are only going to listen to who is telling you what you want to hear. The open mind is dead.

However, I will add this. My son is a senior in High School. I have been taking him to and from school for years. At 3:30, when school lets out there are hundreds of students that walk by my parked car. Not one kid is smoking a cigarette and I have only ever seen 4 kids vaping. When I went to school, half of the kids smoked. We would light up right when we hit the parking lot. It was nothing to see 40 kids congregated at our rides smoking and conversing. Telling me that vaping is a problem with kids today, not buying it until I see it.

 

[MacTechVpr]

When you buy an RTA they cannot possibly tell you the power needed because that depends on the coil YOU put in it. They cannot state how much liquid cotton can transport because that depends largely on on how compressed it is inside the coil you built. The TCR of TC capable wire is known.

Those that use TC properly do not need to know these things anyway (except TCR obviously). The reason is that wicks that transport more liquid cools the coil faster so TC increases wattage to adjust to maintain the correct temp. It also adjusts for air flow, and other factors that would normally affect temp in wattage mode.

The only real downfall to TC is making sure your mod does it correctly. For instance Smok and Sigelei mods are notoriously bad at TC.

I'd agree with your first and last statement. My above posts were about vaporization efficiency though, not electrical efficiency or TC's effectiveness of function. Rather generally what happens when build design or defect produces inadequate output irrespective of the set res for the setup. Think this is quite common, may be perceived as normal or even acceptable yet may explain certain results. Don't see how TC's read on res or any algorythm extrapolating assumptions on airflow or saturation can adequately capture what is happening in such circumstances.

As I said, I think TC has it's place and users that own that space are getting satisfactory performance.

Thanks guys for all the input on benzene.

Good luck all.

 

[bombastinator]

I make a point of never subscribing on YouTube to anything. The whole tracking thing creeps me out. I did watch several of the videos on his site and bookmarked it though

 

[RayofLight62]

"When you buy an RTA they cannot possibly tell you the power needed because that depends on the coil YOU put in it."

If you think of an RTA as a thermodynamic system, the vaping chamber is the engine, and the coil is... the gasoline.

The volume of the vaping chamber, and the total airflow - do define the power an RTA can handle (a window of power range, to be precise).

The size of the coil has a relationship with the e-liquid flow, but not the maximum power the RTA can handle.

 

[ScottP]

The size of the coil has a relationship with the e-liquid flow, but not the maximum power the RTA can handle.

The coils resistance and mass are the PRIMARY indicators of the power requirements. Even if you use the exact same coil size and wraps, a 32ga Kanthal coil and a Framed Alien Staple coil are going to need two wildly different levels of power applied. Air flow and juice flow are secondary and even then how tight you wick will alter juice flow and most airflow is adjustable. There is no way a manufacturer or sales person can predict what you are going to put in it, how tight you are going to wick it, or how you will set the airflow.

Sure, I guess they could tell you 12w to 250w as a range but that would be most RTA's and it's not really helpful.

 

[RayofLight62]

Alloy material and its total mass are relevant for its specific heat in the heating process.
The wire morphology (Alien, Clapton, etc.) are relevant only for their partecipating to the wicking process and heat transmission surface area.
The rated power of an atomiser is a precise and known number, measured for a given airflow and liquid flow, set by the Carnot equation for a non-adiabatic thermodynamic system.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The rated power of an atomiser is a precise and known number, measured for a given airflow and liquid flow, set by the Carnot equation for a non-adiabatic thermodynamic system.

When one looks at a System, Fundamental Thermodynamic Laws are many times Easy to Apply.

But where things start to get Messy is when Interdependent Non-Linear Dif-EQ's start to crop up for things like Airflow or say Fluid Dynamics.

And understanding how Small Changes to one things can Sometimes have Not So Small Changes to another can be Difficult.

 

[vimagreg]

Adding to this debate, just read this in The Guardian newspaper...

Yes, it looks like vaping is the new worlds villain. And, again, someone else are trying to say me what to do. Just can't agree with it.



We ignored the evidence linking cigarettes to cancer. Let's not do that with vaping

We ignored the evidence linking cigarettes to cancer. Let's not do that with vaping | Brendon Stiles and Steve Alperin

Enviado de meu ONEPLUS A6013 usando o Tapatalk

 

[CMD-Ky]

Adding to this debate, just read this in The Guardian newspaper...

Yes, it looks like vaping is the new worlds villain. And, again, someone else are trying to say me what to do. Just can't agree with it.



We ignored the evidence linking cigarettes to cancer. Let's not do that with vaping

We ignored the evidence linking cigarettes to cancer. Let's not do that with vaping | Brendon Stiles and Steve Alperin

Enviado de meu ONEPLUS A6013 usando o Tapatalk

When evidence is presented, I'll listen. What I have seen is rather long on opinion and rather short on facts. And, I only believe studies that conclude what I want them to conclude. My remedy: wait until tomorrow, there will be a contradictory study "suggesting" a result that I want to believe.

 

[Eskie]

Truth is, if I were 35 years old I'd be thinking about an exit strategy at some point in the future after stopping smoking for several years. At my age, and that of other long term ex-smokers around here it's less relevant. I have no issue with paying attention to long term studies for unknown potential risks, but by the time those are done we'll be 10-15 years down the road. I'll worry about it then.

 

[ScottP]

The study I want to see is a study of former long term smokers that switched to vaping for at least 1 year and how their health has been altered. Based on my own personal observations in both the real world and on this forum, the result would be that near 100% if not 100% would be showing significantly improved health, better breathing, improved O2 saturation, more energy, and an all around improvement in how they feel. If this were done it should go a long way toward showing that all smokers should be making the transition.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Perhaps the most elusive answer is how long gov and institution may continue to ignore the burgeoning number of vapers for which no extremes of illness, malady or cataclysm have ensued.

Good luck.

The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see. ―Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead

 

[bombastinator]

Perhaps the most elusive answer is how long gov and institution may continue to ignore the burgeoning number of vapers for which no extremes of illness, malady or cataclysm have ensued.

Good luck.

The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see. ―Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead

Oh no. Not her. I feel a rant coming on..

As an avid reader of Science Fiction, I am not an Anne Rand fan myself. Rather the opposite. I always felt she was a minimally talented author who wrote her ham handed trope filled political propaganda in a science fiction format because it’s easier to make your philosophy work no matter how weak it is as long as you control the universe. The stuff reads like teenage slashfic with “lessons” instead of creepy sex. Writing decent science fiction was totally out of her reach.

The rich and therefore the libertarians love her of course. She promotes their interests and supports the particular ideologies that help in turn support them.

Imho the only more profoundly overpromoted SciFi author ever is L. Ron Hubbard, the guy who founded Scientology.

IMHO The two together are a major reason SciFi is never taken seriously as literature and instead relegated to genre stuff along with bodice rippers and such. The two most “famous” authors in the category are also some of the worst.

 

[ScottP]

Oh no. Not her. I feel a rant coming on..

As an avid reader of Science Fiction, I am not an Anne Rand fan myself. Rather the opposite. I always felt she was a minimally talented author who wrote her ham handed trope filled political propaganda in a science fiction format because it’s easier to make your philosophy work no matter how weak it is as long as you control the universe. The stuff reads like teenage slashfic with “lessons” instead of creepy sex. Writing decent science fiction was totally out of her reach.

The rich and therefore the libertarians love her of course. She promotes their interests and supports the particular ideologies that help in turn support them.

Imho the only more profoundly overpromoted SciFi author ever is L. Ron Hubbard, the guy who founded Scientology.

IMHO The two together are a major reason SciFi is never taken seriously as literature and instead relegated to genre stuff along with bodice rippers and such. The two most “famous” authors in the category are also some of the worst.

I can honestly say I have never read anything by either of them, so I cannot comment on the quality of their work or their talent at writing. What I can say is they were both apparently masters at marketing. Especially Hubbard in marketing his cult to the Hollyweird rich.

I still wouldn't consider them the two most famous I would say Issac Asimov, H.G. Wells, and a few others are more famous.

 

[Uncle Willie]

 

[MacTechVpr]

Oh no. Not her. I feel a rant coming on..

As an avid reader of Science Fiction, I am not an Anne Rand fan myself. Rather the opposite. I always felt she was a minimally talented author who wrote her ham handed trope filled political propaganda in a science fiction format because it’s easier to make your philosophy work no matter how weak it is as long as you control the universe. The stuff reads like teenage slashfic with “lessons” instead of creepy sex. Writing decent science fiction was totally out of her reach.

The rich and therefore the libertarians love her of course. She promotes their interests and supports the particular ideologies that help in turn support them.

Imho the only more profoundly overpromoted SciFi author ever is L. Ron Hubbard, the guy who founded Scientology.

IMHO The two together are a major reason SciFi is never taken seriously as literature and instead relegated to genre stuff along with bodice rippers and such. The two most “famous” authors in the category are also some of the worst.

Whatcha talkin bout Willis? LRN has to be one of the greatest narcissistic plagiarists in human history! And the E-Meter's gotten more confessions than all the lie detectors in human history. Give the man his due for cryin out loud.

As for Rand she was brilliant in her prophetic assessment of humanity's collectivist trajectory. But when she gushes through her protagonists on self-interest as the source of individual virtue (as many libertarians do in the absolute) she sounds altogether too much like Nietzsche to make me comfortable.

But they both spin a good yarn. Watch the volcano's will ya?

Good luck.