D/AP concerns. Vocal minority?
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Video for ya of whats going down with people truly concerned about yours and my life using their own funds to secure our vaping and livelyhood into our futures.. Will it hurt in the future IDK, do not have to know, because of good people/companies doing the darn thing and getting it out..
AFAIK there was no vaping before around 2003. If you have other info I would love to know about it
Why is it everytime I hear a stranger is concerned about my life I get really nervous. Time and time again they make a decision I never would have and been just fine, I haven't needed outside help to care for myself in quite sometime and I like it that way.
I agree with all your comments but am confused how the bottom one relates because what does the " still likely to be far less dangerous than smoking " actually mean ? Seems lots of people use the "it's got to be better than smoking" so it's OK to do philosophy.
If i had a choice between smoking and vaping e liquid with diacetyl i would choose the latter of course but if i'm offered e juice that is free of diacetyl and other controversial chemicals i would much prefer to vape those because (to me) it's basic common sense.
The long term effects of vaping these controversial chemicals WILL NOT be known for many years to come , that is clear , it took a long time to discover cigarettes contributed to many getting cancer . Not saying diacetyl causes cancer and pulmonary issues and not saying it doesn't but after reading the Wilkspedia page on diacetyl it scared me to death which i did not think it would.
Popcorn lung never scared me , it's the other stuff discussed on that page that really shook me .
Anything that permanently scars lung tissue that is irreversible is something that you would think most would want to avoid but some clearly don't care and thats their right.
Does this scarring of lung tissue mean a shorter lifespan , i have no proof and i don't think anybody else does either but there's no question that it will eventually be known , not anytime soon though thats for sure.
With the super high wattages most are vaping at and the ridiculous amount's of juice people are consuming compared to years past not to mention many of these juices have levels of these chemicals that exceed that of an analog cigarette , no thanks .
People will do as they wish though and have a right to do as they wish , it's nobody's life but your own .
We all eventually reach that time in our lives where the consequences of what we did in years past will come to roost , for me , i think it's basic common sense to avoid these chemicals when you now have a choice to vape juice without them but thats me not you .
Enjoy your day everybody
Well the way its going you won't have to worry about it at all its being done behind the scenes and you can think you knew best when you thought that and be absolutely correct cause vaping is the awesome.
Soon the levels of diacetyl and AP will be null and void for us and woot vape heaven per se'. It's going down and it is right. Flavour arts and vendors like I posted prove it can be done and can still offer great flavor. It is an added product to flavoring and its not ok to vape..
That sums it up...
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Loving the recent unflavored posts by members but I need some flavor and I want it made with gold and platinum with silver sparklies flakes and stuff... That sounds ridiculous tho doesn't it..
Well the way its going you won't have to worry about it at all its being done behind the scenes and you can think you knew best when you thought that and be absolutely correct cause vaping is the awesome.
Soon the levels of diacetyl and AP will be null and void for us and woot vape heaven per se'. It's going down and it is right. Flavour arts and vendors like I posted prove it can be done and can still offer great flavor. It is an added product to flavoring and its not ok to vape..
That sums it up...
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Loving the recent unflavored posts by members but I need some flavor and I want it made with gold and platinum with silver sparklies flakes and stuff... That sounds ridiculous tho doesn't it..
Sorry but citing what vendors are doing doesn't make it scientific proof, and I don't buy into fear mongering. We will have to agree to disagree.
The thing is if you take all e liquids ( including those that have zero diketones ) and average them out, then this statement might be true. But if you take the liquids with the highest amount of diketones in them, not so much.
There is 6560 micrograms of diketones ( DA and AP combined ) in a pack of cigarettes. Evaluation of Electronic Cigarette Liquids and Aerosol for the Presence of Selected Inhalation Toxins
There are liquids in the market that can match that in less than 5 ml. This one from Propaganda ( the highest levels i have seen ) can do it in less than 2 ml. VAPOR SHARK - FINE ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES
There are also some studies that suggest aerosol from e liquid will penetrate deeper into the lungs ( this is where BO strikes ) than cigarette smoke :
DA_PD_monograph.pdf
and this presentation from Dr. Hubbs of NIOSH ( at 1 : 47 ) :
Disclosure : I am not a scientist and don't have the credentials to agree or disagree with the above presentation and paper.
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FYI - you can go to the Capella site if you want to check it. They show the test results for every flavor they make. I looked up Cappuccino, I guess that's the one you got. It's one of a handful that they show as having higher levels than their test limit, which I think is 5ppm. They also have a list of flavors that they are reformulating to remove A/P's and Cappuccino isn't on that list. So you got a little unlucky there. I've read A/P's occur naturally in coffee extracts so you have to work a little harder to get a coffee flavor without the stuff.
Just google capella flavor drops. There's a tab called A/P Status on the home page that gives you the full list.
Thank you Mazinny! I will go look at it in a few. I appreciate you posting something I can actually read and think about. I am not above listening to something if someone's says it with a little respect as you did.
I would say that 100 times lower levels is not a small difference (1% of the content of tobacco cigarettes). But let me clarify that this refers to the average from all positive-tested liquids. There were liquids with very high levels, exceeding 2000ppm. These were of course much higher compared to tobacco cigarette, even for moderate users of 3-4mL per day liquid consumption.
Finally, i would like to add that the issue is not if e-cigarettes are safer than smoking. The problem is that it is unacceptable (in any consumer product) to deliberately add a compound that may cause harm. Since it is easy to remove these compounds, i do not see why there should be such a big discussion about the issue. Perhaps some people may knowingly want to vape DA and AP containing liquids and make an informed decision. However, the vast m,ajority of vapers (outside the forums, more than 99% of all users) are unable to even understand what it means for a liquid to contain DA and AP. So, even of there is labelling, that does not necessarily mean the consumers can make informed decisions.
Despite the above, i should say that legally none is (currently) obliged to remove or even mention in the label if a liquid contains DA or AP. But this is not a discussion about the legal aspects but about the right thing.
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Okay, so let's say for sake of discussion that a pack of smokes has 6500 micrograms, and (just for sake of making a point) that an eLiquid exists where 1ml equals 7000 micrograms.
Person smokes a pack a day for 25 years, and has moderate health issues, but nothing serious with lungs. Then vapes for 5 years at 1 ml a day.
Are we to believe there is, even in this hypothetical, a strong likelihood that this person will encounter lung issues? And that this is solely attributable to inhaling diketones?
If yes, then would it be fair to say that if smokes could get diketones out of their product, that smoking would be safer, perhaps causing zero lung issues in all users? Cause that really really really appears to be the argument that is put forth. And I had to go with hypotheticals (on the vaping side) that don't really exist, or if they do, are the exception to some fairly established rules, even by all participants in this thread.
Even in the workplace exposure examples, that are only information we have for actual harm, the likelihood of DA being deemed a causal factor is 1 in a thousand chance. Yet, some in vaping community are suggesting that having DA in eLiquid equals very strong chance that ALL vapers would be harmed (lung problems) and that would be (solely) attributable to the presence of DA.
Let's say that 1 in a thousand people that inhale nicotine have some very significant, perhaps even lethal malady that happens to them. They are only inhaling 1.2% nic at 1 ml a day. But science determines their malady is caused by them inhaling nicotine for say 3 months straight. So, even if 999 other people who inhale similar amount are not affected, shouldn't we be equally worried (along lines of DA concerns) that this is a very harmful ingredient in eLiquid and that it ought to be removed? That the whole industry could get shut down if we don't remove it? Cause clearly many vapers, who vape non-nic liquid, are establishing that this is not necessary ingredient in eLiquid. Therefore, why would anyone suggest that we need to have it in there?
Me, I hope nic is sold in eLiquid indefinitely, as an option to entire consumer base, and that DA laced liquids are an option to that same base, forever and ever. And that we realize 30 years from now (or 3 days from now, or even 300 years from now) that magically only .1% of the population seems impacted by this thing that a vocal minority was very concerned about in 2015.
ETA: That after reading Dr. F.'s post, it must be noted that removing nic from eLiquid is the right thing, because it is a compound that may cause harm. Hope we can all get aboard that train. /sarcasm
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really, lol? ... you could smell it in the air?
Yes. Especially when walking through someone's cloud.
Find a flavor ingredient that's known to have a lot of D/AP. This isn't hard as D/AP is perfectly acceptable for food flavorings. Add it to a base. Vape it. Note the flavor, the feel of the flavor, and the scent. Get a control flavor and add it to a base. Vape it. Compare. I'm betting you won't forget the that taste after that.
first a thanks to @KFarsalinos for weighing in.
Regards
Mike
?. Is this new math? When you add the vinegar its 1000 parts per million parts of water.(0.001%)
Regards
Mike
Where was the math wrong guy what are you trying to prove here? The water has 0ppm the vinegar has taken over the water and its now it boss its not @ 0 ppm anymore. The vinegar is 1000 times more parts than the water which was at 0 ppm its not rocket science and while you post is correct in percentage my post was never incorrect or needed to be corrected.. Where do you
people come from lolblu ecigs average daily consumption? Most non cigalike vapers consume well over 10 times the juice consumed in blu ecigs.
Just what is the average daily juice consumption?
Some consume upwards of 30 ml per day. I am a low wattage vaper and consume at least 10 ml per day.
There is NO WAY I could consume 10 ml per day in cigalikes. Maybe 3?
?????? What?Where was the math wrong guy what are you trying to prove here? The water has 0ppm the vinegar has taken over the water and its now it boss its not @ 0 ppm anymore. The vinegar is 1000 times more parts than the water which was at 0 ppm its not rocket science and while you post is correct in percentage my post was never incorrect or needed to be corrected.. Where do you
The water had 0 vinegar parts per million parts of water before the vinegar was added.
After adding the vinegar you have 1000 parts of vinegar in a million parts of water.
There is not 1000 x more vinegar than water. There is 1000 x less vinegar than water
in the mix.
Regards
mike
1% with diacetyl is very small considering the chemicals composition of concentration. Lol its 1% thats very small.
When people realize that figure is liken to on the head of a needlepoint in some instances maybe they will get off this its ok I smoked more when I smoked tobacco.. Its uber strong stuff. A tiny drop of it to season 10,000 gallons of beer -- its that strong...
I'll never forget that incident where a company that sold bad nicotine to us DIY e joos peeps, they mistakenly sold 200-300mg as 50-100mg they had made a huge mixing mistake. It was a thread on the diy page here for a long time IDK if it's still there now, just think if a company makes this mistake and that concentrated diacetyl is double or triple the numbers. With nic you know by being over nic'd or can use a measuring kit with diacetyl there is no kit to measure it until your bad off and there is no cure for it..
I did not know you tested e joos with higher numbers than analogs -- that right there is scary.. I did know clickbang has also tested e joos with higher numbers than analogs and that was enough for me..
Wake up people it is something we can get rid of..
What? Have you any clue??????? What?
The water had 0 vinegar parts per million parts of water before the vinegar was added.
After adding the vinegar you have 1000 parts of vinegar in a million parts of water.
There is not 1000 x more vinegar than water. There is 1000 x less vinegar than water
in the mix.
Regards
mike
There is 1000 times more ppm than the 0ppm water.
0ppm distilled water absolutely 0ppm.
What do you not get..
There is no electrical conductivity in the water, 0,
when you add that one drop of vinegar now the water has an electrical characteristic that is measured at 1000ppm.. Just stop.
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