DA, AP and "Popcorn Lung"

[olix00]

As there are a lot of experienced vapers, I would like to ask if anyone has developed "popcorn lung"/bronchiolitis, COPD or anything yet, or is it mor or less...just a joke ?

I'm asking because of the fact that some, including the media say that diacetyl, acetyl-propionyl and other diketones could be able to trigger the diseases mentioned, while scientists say that DA is present in only trace quantities in only some of the e-liquids available (levels from 100 to up to 750 times lower than that of cigarettes), and they may not even be the main culprit behind bronchiolitis obliterans, and more so, not in those quantities.Personally.

I steered away from custards or creams and tried to use only capella V2 (DA and AP free) when wanting a creamier taste, but I frequently buy flavours from local food labs also that just buy the concentrated flavors and dilute them, and as a consequence, they don't know what might contain what exactly (That's why I'm afraid of using their caramelised or custard flabvours, and I think that some fruit flavors, like pear, apple or bubble gum might contain DA).... What do you guys say and what are your experiences up until now ? Has vaping gotten you into any health related issues (besides sore throat or dehydration) ?

I would also be interested to know what are the opinions of any non-smokers.

Thank you for all your answers!​

 

[retired1]

Moved to General E-Liquid Discussion

 

[Eskie]

"Popcorn Lung" is not a joke. It's quite real and can happen with high levels of exposure. That said, even in e-liquid that contained DA there have been to my knowledge, no cases ever reported. The level of exposure even in those liquids was well under the occupational exposure which has been linked.

Most e-liquid vendors (certainly the reputable ones) do not use flavorings containing DA/AP in their preparations, and many offer certificates of analysis (not perfect protection as the cutoff for testing is quite important, if set too high, the analysis will report "no detectable"). Personally, I'd rather not have DA in my liquid despite the highly remote chance of illness related to exposure. It's an avoidable risk for me, so why do it.

 

[Maestro]

Like you said, it's 100 to 700 times higher in cigarettes. Yet it's still considered a rare condition. I don't know anyone who had it, do you? It's a fart in a hurricane. Don't worry about it.

 

[Bonskibon]

I smoked for over 30 years and inhaled countless harmful chemicals into my system I'm personally not going to freak out if there are trace amounts of something potentially harmful in my ejuice. That's just me, I'll avoid if possible, but not going to lose sleep.

 

[dashbb]

Yeah it is REAL disease. Only buy liquid from reputable companies. Health first.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

 

[Zipslack]

With the much higher exposure in cigarettes, I still haven't seen any cases of Popcorn Lung attributed to smoking (with decades of use). The vaping community has done a pretty good job of regulating itself, with DA being a prime example. Not many juices have it any more and the levels are so low...why worry excessively?

 

[vjc0628]

You know I wonder about this, I mean every where you turn someone blow up a Chinese battery charging it on a computer another droped a battery and broke a toenail and eciggs are evil, But I have not seen one case of popcorn lung on the news.

I mean do I really need to steer clear of a Juice I might love. I mean is a juice like 5 pawns really that dangerous or is it all over kill?

I don't know the answer. I don't know I can get anything but opinions that vary.But I am starting to feel if I have one or 2 juices in the mix with higher levels and I am probably only going to vape another year at most, I am not going to worry and would rather enjoy a good vape

But then again I may end up posting a warning if it does not go well

 

[Frenchfry1942]

To much of anything is not good. For cigarettes, it is just one to be to much.

 

[Jdurand]

If you are planning on being a vaper for life, then I would seriously consider this to be a potential hazard. If you plan on being a short term vaper, then I would happily vape whatever you wish.

JMHO

 

[tj99959]

The nice thing about vaping is that you have choices. If you're worried about DA & AP, it's not that hard to avoid.

 

[Iron Molly]

I've turned into a mouth to exhale vapor, like a cigar smoker. I very rarely inhale at all. So at this point, I'm not worrying much about DA & AP.

 

[Hitmetwice]

I think of the quantities and exposure needed. Think of the end user of microwave popcorn, the aroma fills the house once maybe twice a week from 1 or 2 bags. Then the factory worker working day in day out processing likely tons of popcorn each day.

How many cases have there been in avid movie/popcorn buffs?
Even in the factory type environment the number of cases is very low percentage wise.

I liken the above two scenarios to vaping (movie buff popcorn lovers)....
And smoking cigs (long time factory workers).

It is almost impossible to find a case of PL in a smoker anywhere.
And millions have smoked for years.
Chances are that finding a case in a vaper never smoker will be zero.

On a list of daily risks we must face each day, on a scale of 1-10, my fear of popcorn lung is zero and I vape custards almost exclusively and have emphysema from a 40 year tobacco addiction.
Cheers.

 

[sonicbomb]

As far as I know this whole scare was originated by a small number of factory workers who developed PLS. But there was never any concrete evidence that the chemicals in use in that factory were actually to blame. Also consider that there are a hundred times more in cigarettes, and not one case of smoking related PLS.

I think the whole thing has been vastly blown out of proportion and rather than protecting vapers, it has done incalculable damage to our cause.

I use custard and cream flavors daily, recent evidence has shown that other flavors like mint may show far more cause for concern.

 

[alex_at]

here'smy take on the subject:

I guess the case of the guy sniffing microwave popcorn for 2 years and developing popcorn lung shows us that Diacetyl is not exactly harm free when inhaled.

The case with the factory workers shows the same thing, but they have been inhalong quantities that are very high, so they may not be the best example.

Now regarding the fact that cigarettes do contain Diacetyl too: the problem with diagnosing bronchitis oblitrans is that you would need to examine a sample of the lung, a biopsy of an actual piece of lung to be able to clearly say that this lung is/has been suffering from BO. The second problem with BO is that the symptoms are the same as with COPD which brings us to the main problem: from all the COPD suffering patients how many of them have actually COPD and not Bronchitis Obliterans? We don't know!

The Diacetyl is also suspected to be causing emphysema as well.

What we also don't know is how different the reactions is between burning Diacethl containIng tobacco vs heated vapor. It could be possible that Diacetyl either transforms, looses partial harmfulnes due to being burned. It might also be possible that a lot of the diacetyl in cigarettes is not consumed due to being burned before inhaling.


These are valid points to consider before shouting out that cigarettes contain more diacetyl and no one has had popcorn lung before. You don't know!

Tests made with rats have shown scarring effect on their tissue, and their respiratory system is not too different from the humans.

Have vapers had popcorn lung? Not that I know, but you wouldn't get copd after smoking for relatively short time either, unless your'e pretty much unlucky.


The next problem would be: let's say X is a vaper. He's been vaping for 5 years now and before he had been smoking for 25 years. X loves his custard, doughnut, pancake and cereal vapes. Now X develops respiratory issues, shortness of breath and so on. X goes to the doctor and gets himself examined. Now he's more likely to be diagnosed with COPD because of his smoking career rather than Bronchtis Obliterans, simply because to be sure that he has BO a lung sample would needed to be analyzed. But who pays for that? That's why he will be diagnosed with COPD but in reality he could have Bronchitis Obliterans, maybe from vaping, maybe from smoking, maybe from both. And the numbers of vapers with BO remains zero on the paper.

 

[VNeil]

here'smy take on the subject:

I guess the case of the guy sniffing microwave popcorn for 2 years and developing popcorn lung shows us that Diacetyl is not exactly harm free when inhaled.

The case with the factory workers shows the same thing, but they have been inhalong quantities that are very high, so they may not be the best example.

Now regarding the fact that cigarettes do contain Diacetyl too: the problem with diagnosing bronchitis oblitrans is that you would need to examine a sample of the lung, a biopsy of an actual piece of lung to be able to clearly say that this lung is/has been suffering from BO. The second problem with BO is that the symptoms are the same as with COPD which brings us to the main problem: from all the COPD suffering patients how many of them have actually COPD and not Bronchitis Obliterans? We don't know!

The Diacetyl is also suspected to be causing emphysema as well.

What we also don't know is how different the reactions is between burning Diacethl containIng tobacco vs heated vapor. It could be possible that Diacetyl either transforms, looses partial harmfulnes due to being burned. It might also be possible that a lot of the diacetyl in cigarettes is not consumed due to being burned before inhaling.


These are valid points to consider before shouting out that cigarettes contain more diacetyl and no one has had popcorn lung before. You don't know!

Tests made with rats have shown scarring effect on their tissue, and their respiratory system is not too different from the humans.

Have vapers had popcorn lung? Not that I know, but you wouldn't get copd after smoking for relatively short time either, unless your'e pretty much unlucky.


The next problem would be: let's say X is a vaper. He's been vaping for 5 years now and before he had been smoking for 25 years. X loves his custard, doughnut, pancake and cereal vapes. Now X develops respiratory issues, shortness of breath and so on. X goes to the doctor and gets himself examined. Now he's more likely to be diagnosed with COPD because of his smoking career rather than Bronchtis Obliterans, simply because to be sure that he has BO a lung sample would needed to be analyzed. But who pays for that? That's why he will be diagnosed with COPD but in reality he could have Bronchitis Obliterans, maybe from vaping, maybe from smoking, maybe from both. And the numbers of vapers with BO remains zero on the paper.

The flaw in your argument: over the years millions of smokers lungs have been autopsied even if only a small fraction of dead smokers lungs are autopsied. The idea of a silent epidemic just does not hold water.

As to your other points it is possible tomorrow pigs will fly and you cannot prove otherwise. It is scientifically and philosophically impossible to prove a negative but it does make great FUD which is where all this stuff comes from.

 

[tj99959]

 

[skoony]

Popcorn lung is a occupational disease caused primarily from diacetyl laced dust found in the mixing areas of large food production facilities. Mostly micro-wave manufacturers. Aside from 2 cases reported in the last 2 years in a coffee roasting plant in Texas no confirmed reports have surfaced since the early 2000's. Only one non-industry worker has ever been diagnosed with popcorn lung. Although his claims were of a dubious nature a civil court ruled in his behalf.

"The disease appears in different forms, depending on the type of dust you inhale. One of the most common forms is black lung disease, also known as miner's lung. It’s caused by breathing in coal dust. Another is brown lung, which comes from working around dust from cotton or other fibers. Other types of dusts that can cause pneumoconiosis include silica and asbestos. Diacetyl, the compound used to give movie popcorn its buttery flavor, also can lead to the disease. This is known as popcorn lung. "
Pneumoconiosis | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library


Regards
Mike

 

[razberrydazzle]

I smoked for over 30 years and inhaled countless harmful chemicals into my system I'm personally not going to freak out if there are trace amounts of something potentially harmful in my ejuice. That's just me, I'll avoid if possible, but not going to lose sleep.

I TOTALLY agree with this, especially as someone who's had bronchitis before. It's the worse. I'm almost positive that if anything goes awry at this point, the main cause would be the cigs I've inhaled with lord knows what. I understand the concern though.

 

[olix00]

But for a non-smoker (never-smoker), do you believe there is any chance of him (me in this case) to develop any thing ( i don't mean popcorn lung specifically this time) ? Thanks. And thanks for all the prevous answers