Debunking ultrasonic steeping

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smoked25years

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Without actually trying the very expensive kit from the German ultrasound/homogenisation site it is hard to tell how much is hype and how much is reality, they sell their kit on the basis you can turn out juice in minutes. That has to be taken with a pinch of salt though, being a German -> English translation.

I have also used that type of homogenizer... or a least one that looked identical to it... I don't really see any difference except that one is advertised as for e-liquid. It seems to me that they found a new way to market an old product.

I think a vortex, orbital shaker, or magnetic stirrer are better suited for mixing e-liquid. Some of the things linked from Amazon also look good.
 
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stols001

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I'm totally confused here and pretty sure I'm missing something, but what exactly does adding food coloring to VG/PG and noting that it does dissolve/darken prove, exactly? It proves that yes, UC will more rapidly dissolve colorant when shuffled around (and also heated, I don't think most UCs unless you are going high end are going to not heat to a certain degree) and that glass is better than plastic....

But, I don't use food coloring in my eliquids and food coloring is going to darken eliquids in a way nicotine and flavoring won't. I don't observe "color change" to be a determinant of steeping, in fact I have several well steeped juices at the moment that are totally CLEAR.

The real test of a UC is "will it speed up the process" of chemical change, and while you may have proved that it is the case for FOOD coloring, unless you plan to use food coloring instead of flavors, the science may well be good but I don't understand where you are then extrapolating to "UCs will mix and accelerate the mixing process with FLAVORINGS." They might. They might not. They might accelerate and mute, the heat may degrade some of the nicotine, which are like the major reasons many folks don't use them. I have an UC for cleaning stuff, but if I am trying to accelerate a mix for someone I am mixing for, the furthest I will go is to stand it in a container of set fairly high tap water and leave it there for about a half hour as it slowly cools.

I must be the only person missing what is going on Greybeard, to me a far more meaningful test would be of two identical testers one UC and one not and then tasting periodically and noting any differences. If they're too subtle to tell, well, that may tell you something, if you can note any differences, well that would tell you something. '

I just don't get how food coloring relates to DIY at all? @Old Greybeard, help me out here, I'm super confused. I mean I get that you got something to dissolve faster via UC than if it just sits but other than that, I am kind of at a total loss as to how that relates to a whole set of different chemical reactions, etc.
Anna
 

zoiDman

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I just don't get how food coloring relates to DIY at all? @Old Greybeard, help me out here, I'm super confused. I mean I get that you got something to dissolve faster via UC than if it just sits but other than that, I am kind of at a total loss as to how that relates to a whole set of different chemical reactions, etc.
Anna

I believe the Premise would be that if Steeping Time is Dependent, or Partially Dependent, on Ingredient Physical Interactions, then any Means of Accelerating such Physical Interactions would Accelerate Steeping.

So if this is True, what types of Containers that an e-Liquid is held in might Inhibited the Physical Motion that an UC might provide?
 
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DaveP

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I've tried UC fast steeping, shaking, and mixing with a milk frother. All work and contribute to the maturity of the mix. I've finally settled on the milk stirrer as my chief method of achieving a decent mix. It creates hundreds, maybe even thousands of bubbles in the mix and the clear juice turns into something that resembles a milk shake. Then, the bubbles rise and break over a few minutes and the juice is crystal clear again.

It's easy and it works to make steeping speed up significantly.
 
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tailland

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Q: Why exactly do we have the combination of a UC PLUS water PLUS bottle PLUS liquid ? Wouldn't it be much cleverer to cut out the middle man, and exchange the outer tank for the bottle?

Like here:
miniuc.jpg

It has a "removable" tank, which we could simply replace with our bottles.

Or here:
reguc.jpg

The inner diameter of this thing happens to be 9cm, which is the exact diameter of the dark brown standard pharma 1liter bottle. Why not press the bottle into it? As long as it firmly sits on the floor, it should get shaken just as well, no?
 
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DaveOno

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I go redneck here.

I rubber band 2 bottles to either side of the blade on my reciprocating saw. (2 bottles seems to balance it out better than the below vid.) I use these big thick rubber bands, and I do this in the basement, not on the living room couch!!!

But it will take a clear juice and make it milky opaque. Just 5 or 10 seconds. It takes 30 to 60 minutes to go clear again, for the air bubbles to rise up.

 

DaveP

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Anything that insulates the mix from the vibrations of the UC is certainly going to hamper the effectiveness of the UC. Plastic bottles are usually considered to be less effective in a UC than glass, but glass has to retransmit the vibrations through the glass and allow them to continue on into the juice.

I've always wondered if plastic or glass bottles reduce the effectiveness of the steeping of juice. Of course, you have to isolate the juice from the medium it's suspended in, so there's that issue.

Articles I've read say that glass and plastic don't stop the transmission. Maybe it's not a concern with juice in a bottle.
 
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Old Greybeard

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I'm totally confused here and pretty sure I'm missing something, but what exactly does adding food coloring to VG/PG and noting that it does dissolve/darken prove, exactly? ....

... I must be the only person missing what is going on Greybeard, to me a far more meaningful test would be of two identical testers one UC and one not and then tasting periodically and noting any differences.

@stols001, didn't mean to cause any confusion, quite the opposite in fact. The original researcher [Nik-o-tine] made an assertion on YouTube that using a UC was pointless when it comes to mixing juice, built I believe on faulty logic. Just because 2 liquids don't mix in a particular plastic container in a UC bath, doesn't mean they won't mix in another medium, e.g. glass. I tried to replicate his experiment as closely as I could, but the lack of a soft plastic bottle and liquid food colouring meant I couldn't duplicate it with 100% accuracy.

What it proves [and the second experiment really surprised me with it's effectiveness] is that a UC is extremely good and very quick at mixing PG and VG solutions. I expected it to take at least 5-10 minutes due to the natural viscosity of VG, and as I didn't turn on the UC's heating element. I'm so impressed with it, I'll use this method for my next set of 10ml samples, albeit in glass bottles. Larger volumes I think are more suitable for the magnetic stirrer. So far so good.

What the experiment doesn't address, as you rightly say, is any qualitative improvement in the ejuice, or to ask the same question in a different way - "Will a UC steep my juice better/quicker?" etc. The best we can answer at this point without further tests is "maybe". Which is a lot more encouraging for those who use a UC bath than the original assertion that no mixing equates to no steeping.

One of the tests that seem to be a good indicator of how well the juice has steeped is the colour, and when I get some more kit I intend to make a batch of juice both standalone and in the UC then compare the developing colour over a time period. I think this will be a much more objective test than my very subjective taste buds - it will be very interesting to see the results.

So much of the whole steeping/maturing debate seems to revolve around what works for individual people, yet there seems to be little understanding as to why a particular method works. Which is fair enough, if a particular method works for you and you are happy with the results, no problem. For a newcomer though, it is really confusing, as there are so many conflicting opinions and little hard theory or proof. About the only common factor I can see most people agreeing with is time. Yet, there are those that swear you can shorten that by any number of methods.

I didn't quite realise the can of worms I was opening here, but I really want to document my DIY progress and findings for the benefit of all. I don't have access to a research budget, or even much kit for that matter. What I will try and do is be as scientific and empirical as I can, and maybe dispel a few myths and make a few discoveries in the process. What I really don't want to do is fall into the trap of confirmation bias, where I've effectively made my mind up before the results are in.
 
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Old Greybeard

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jpasint

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I did a ton of research on this topic when I first started down the DIY path.
I came across this PDF document that goes into detail the topic of "Sonochemistry".
Although a bit boring, the document explains the process really well.

Ultrasonic waves have definite affect on our mixes.
 

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