Dehydration: very serious, with serious and painful consequences

[AndriaD]

Hi! Due to severe medical problems with my digestive system (three operations in the last three years - I'll spare you the details here) I'm very aware of the symptoms (including excruciating cramps, headaches, dry mouth, etc) and dangers of dehydration (been hospitalised several times for IV fluids). I can confirm that, although it's important to drink a good quantity of water/ fluid (at least a couple of litres) daily, just upping the amount of water intake alone carries the danger of upsetting the right balance of salts (electrolytes) in the body. Although you may not like the slightly salty taste, it can be beneficial to use either a proprietary mix (like Dioralyte, or similar) or simply (cheaper!) make your own: 6 level 5ml spoonfuls of Glucose, 1 heaped 2.5ml spoonful of Sodium Bicarbonate, 1 level 5ml spoonful of Sodium Chloride (salt) dissolved in 1 litre of tap water. Google "St. Mark's solution" for more info. Hope that helps someone. (Disclaimer: I'm NOT a doctor and have no medical training and accept no responsibility for following this advice - but, unfortunately due to my poor health, being around hospitals and specialists long enough you do learn something...!)

That's probably a good solution for the dehydration, but for me, if the taste isn't tolerable, I simply won't drink it, I just can't get it down. And that includes anything salty-tasting. Which is why I've gone with the rather-sweet Goya coconut water, with a bit of pineapple juice added so it's not so sweet.

I'm not sure but I might have a problem, since I've been drinking all this with such a high potassium level. Yesterday I discovered that the incision in my navel, for the laparoscopic appendectomy, was tender and inflamed, so this morning I called the surgeon's office, went in so they could look at it, and received a prescription for "Bactrim." The prescription facts sheet says there may be a problem taking this drug if you have a high potassium blood level. I don't know if mine is currently high or not, I just know that I am trying desperately to resolve the imbalance that led to the edema, and ingesting high levels of potassium seems to be helping a great deal. Anyone know anything about this?

Andria

 

[mistike]

That's probably a good solution for the dehydration, but for me, if the taste isn't tolerable, I simply won't drink it, I just can't get it down. And that includes anything salty-tasting. Which is why I've gone with the rather-sweet Goya coconut water, with a bit of pineapple juice added so it's not so sweet.

I'm not sure but I might have a problem, since I've been drinking all this with such a high potassium level. Yesterday I discovered that the incision in my navel, for the laparoscopic appendectomy, was tender and inflamed, so this morning I called the surgeon's office, went in so they could look at it, and received a prescription for "Bactrim." The prescription facts sheet says there may be a problem taking this drug if you have a high potassium blood level. I don't know if mine is currently high or not, I just know that I am trying desperately to resolve the imbalance that led to the edema, and ingesting high levels of potassium seems to be helping a great deal. Anyone know anything about this?

Andria

Potassium can be dangerous for the heart if the blood levels are too high. As I said I'm taking a medication that may up that blood level (it's called a potassium-preserving diuretic) and I had to get a blood test prior to taking it and another after a couple of weeks (next week).

If he put you on a medication that may interact with potassium blood levels, he should have had you get a blood test. I would call him and ask him for his opinion first. If you're supposed to take it for a long time, ask for a blood test prescription.

 

[AndriaD]

Potassium can be dangerous for the heart if the blood levels are too high. As I said I'm taking a medication that may up that blood level (it's called a potassium-preserving diuretic) and I had to get a blood test prior to taking it and another after a couple of weeks (next week).

If he put you on a medication that may interact with potassium blood levels, he should have had you get a blood test. I would call him and ask him for his opinion first. If you're supposed to take it for a long time, ask for a blood test prescription.

Well it's just for 10 days. I did call the pharmacy, since they know a lot more about medications than most doctors, and explained to them that I'd been drinking coconut water daily for extreme dehydration following my appendectomy, and their advice was that a food/drink containing potassium should not cause a problem, that the warning was primarily for the type of medicine you mention, a potassium-preserving diuretic and other meds of that type. So I guess I'm safe to continue drinking it, but I might decrease the amount from 12oz daily to maybe 8oz daily. And maybe stop using the Lite Salt, since it's 50% potassium chloride.

Andria

 

[silkakc]

Really glad you started this thread, AndriaD! This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about lately as well, because I've been having some dehydration-related issues. Based on your description, I think we've been dealing with a similar root cause, but mine presented a little differently than yours (I haven't experienced any swelling, etc.). I hope describing it here might help someone, too.

I've always had fairly low blood pressure naturally (90/60 normal resting), and it's pretty easy for me to get pushed into hypotension depending on what I'm doing and the environment around me (eating/ drinking enough, get overheated, etc). I vape 50/50. When I started vaping, I definitely wasn't doing enough to offset the dehydration it causes, and for me, that resulted in low blood volume and a MAJOR uptick in orthostatic hypotension episodes. I call 'em synchopes, and generally get quite a few in the summer, but nothing like this. Before I realized what was going on, I got to where I couldn't even bend at the waist-- standing!-- without having one.

So, I started making an effort to refill my water bottle more often, and it helped a little bit, but not as much as I had expected. Also, I was ...... like crazy. I knew that electrolyte imbalance can contribute to dehydration, so I decided that being majorly dehydrated and then drinking a lot of water might have flushed my system of electrolytes and maybe I should try to go about replacing them. Not having any other option at the time, I got myself a couple gatorades (ICK. So very, very gross.) and didn't have my normal coffee at work. Within an hour or so, I was able to bend normally without having synchopes. Yay!

So, I've continued limiting my coffee to 2 cups in the morning frown and have been trying to make sure I take in adequate electrolytes with the extra water I'm drinking. I hate the taste of gatorade and other 'sports' drinks with a passion (and it's hard to find them without fake sugar), so I've been trying to get my electrolytes from fruits and vegetables instead, which does seem to be mostly working, though I have trouble getting enough that way. I have a toddler, so I don't have time for much of anything ME-related...

Tried a coconut water yesterday morning, and though I generally love coconut, that was kinda icky too. I definitely agree with AndriaD and others who have an aversion to the 'salty' taste in these kinds of drinks. ICK. It was marginally better than gatorade though, so I think I'll try to find some fruit juice to mix it with for tomorrow. I'm limited to what I can quickly grab at a gas station on the way to-and-from work, so we'll see.

I am like Walter and have low blood pressure. (By the way Walter, have them test your adrenal hormones and your sodium and potassium levels. It sounds like you might need Fludrocortisone to keep your blood pressure up. That drug has saved my life.)

I have an adrenal gland problem that causes dehydration. I take meds that counteract that tendency and I haven't had any problems with vaping. I do use 100% VG so perhaps that has less drying tendencies?

 

[AndriaD]

I am like Walter and have low blood pressure. (By the way Walter, have them test your adrenal hormones and your sodium and potassium levels. It sounds like you might need Fludrocortisone to keep your blood pressure up. That drug has saved my life.)

I have an adrenal gland problem that causes dehydration. I take meds that counteract that tendency and I haven't had any problems with vaping. I do use 100% VG so perhaps that has less drying tendencies?

I think so, although it may still cause a small amount of dehydration. Someone observed that my own problems with VG might be more because of my dehydration than VG's viscosity, but I'm not sure about that; since I started diluting the VG part of my ejuice pretty heavily with water, so it's quite thin (thinner than PG!), it doesn't seem to cause me nearly as much trouble.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Well it's just for 10 days. I did call the pharmacy, since they know a lot more about medications than most doctors, and explained to them that I'd been drinking coconut water daily for extreme dehydration following my appendectomy, and their advice was that a food/drink containing potassium should not cause a problem, that the warning was primarily for the type of medicine you mention, a potassium-preserving diuretic and other meds of that type. So I guess I'm safe to continue drinking it, but I might decrease the amount from 12oz daily to maybe 8oz daily. And maybe stop using the Lite Salt, since it's 50% potassium chloride.

Andria

I wanted to post an update on this, as it relates to my ongoing recovery from the dehydration/electrolyte imbalance. I've been taking the Bactrim antibiotics now for 2 full days; both yesterday and today, in light of what I had read about potential problems with high potassium levels from use of this drug, I decreased my consumption of coconut water by about 50%, and I do believe I see a *very slight* "thickening" on the inside of my right ankle; it hasn't gone so far as soft tissue swelling, i.e., there's no flesh being pushed up by the edge of my tennies, but it does appear that it might be a slight return of the edema, just beginning. So tomorrow I'm going back to my full 12oz of coconut water, since I am indeed beginning to vape more than I smoke, and apparently my metabolism needs the potassium to calibrate fluid levels properly.

Andria

 

[patkin]

My coconut water contains approx 500mg potassium per serving which is actually half the carton (trash already went out so I don't have one right now but I think that's 6 or 8 ounces.) I used to drink flavored waters because I don't like the taste (I know not supposed to have any) of plain water so I just started adding my pineapple flavored coconut water to my water to taste sometimes with a squirt of lemon too. I guess, doing it that way, I was getting about 10 ounces of coconut water mixed in about 6 large (18 ounces each) water daily. Works for me. If the high potassium in CW is worrisome, the health food stores or pharmacies carry potassium tablets in the vitamin section. They're 99mg per tablet. I also use No Salt 100% potassium which is usually only in the evening meal if at all and do eat a bit of salt in lunch meats and canned goods. I don't have HB since starting to vape but did when I smoked. I don't take diuretics... so just giving my info to help others. I do still get a slight swelling of the right ankle if I sit too long so I make a point of walking every hour if I'm going to be at the computer or watching TV without my feet up. But, the doc has looked at it like I said and he said its "unremarkable." BTW, I also think age factors into the swelling issues. For the most part its pretty normal to develop the sitting-too-long or standing-in-one-spot ankle swelling issues when aging... something to do with the valves wearing out.

 

[AndriaD]

My coconut water contains approx 500mg potassium per serving which is actually half the carton (trash already went out so I don't have one right now but I think that's 6 or 8 ounces.) I used to drink flavored waters because I don't like the taste (I know not supposed to have any) of plain water so I just started adding my pineapple flavored coconut water to my water to taste sometimes with a squirt of lemon too. I guess, doing it that way, I was getting about 10 ounces of coconut water mixed in about 6 large (18 ounces each) water daily. Works for me. If the high potassium in CW is worrisome, the health food stores or pharmacies carry potassium tablets in the vitamin section. They're 99mg per tablet. I also use No Salt 100% potassium which is usually only in the evening meal if at all and do eat a bit of salt in lunch meats and canned goods. I don't have HB since starting to vape but did when I smoked. I don't take diuretics... so just giving my info to help others. I do still get a slight swelling of the right ankle if I sit too long so I make a point of walking every hour if I'm going to be at the computer or watching TV without my feet up. But, the doc has looked at it like I said and he said its "unremarkable." BTW, I also think age factors into the swelling issues. For the most part its pretty normal to develop the sitting-too-long or standing-in-one-spot ankle swelling issues when aging... something to do with the valves wearing out.

Yeah, those pesky valves. I have some varicosities in my ankles from those, and man are they ugly. But one of the better side effects of switching to vaping, for me, was that I no longer suffered "popsicle paws" -- even back in March when I had first given up the smokes, and it was still pretty cold, my hands and feet were warm all the time, probably only a couple weeks after the smokes were gone.

I'm really not all that worried, since the pharmacy did say that the elevated blood potassium was much more a factor of certain medications, than any amount you could get from a good diet, so I'm just going to proceed with that, and continue with the coconut water/pineapple juice "treatment"; it's helped just amazingly. So I had a small glass this morning while I was waiting on my first cup of tea to brew; I'll have another small glass later in the afternoon, and after supper, I'll have another slightly larger glass, and that should account for the 12oz daily serving, and keep the ankle from showing the troubling signs again. Once I'm back to full-time 100% vaping, I might even need to increase it slightly.

I naturally looked at my ankle very closely when I first got up, and I was right, it was just a bit swollen last night. Normally, the inner ankle bone, which I believe is the end of the tibia, has a very slight concavity down its center, but last night it was slightly rounded, so just the very beginning of a swelling. It was, as I had expected, showing the normal concavity after a full night's sleep (elevated feet), and so far today, appears perfectly normal.

But, this is precisely why I'm not rushing like mad to reinstate full-time vaping; I needed to see how my body responds as I gradually increase vaping, and what I'm seeing is very encouraging. Also, diluting the VG about 25% with water does seem to be working to keep it from troubling my breathing; not feeling any "hairballs" in throat or chest, so it must have been the viscosity that made the VG so troubling before. Once I get some more (and hopefully better) flavors, I can continue my experiments with PEG400, but at this point, it appears that just substantially decreasing the PG and diluting the VG is working pretty well for me.

Andria

 

[Exchaner]

What if you eliminated pg altogether and went for straight vg diluted by 25%? Some of your flavorings might be in pg, but the amount is normally minimal - FA Virginia for example is good at 2%.

 

[williamclarkonet]

Thanks for the info

 

[AndriaD]

What if you eliminated pg altogether and went for straight vg diluted by 25%? Some of your flavorings might be in pg, but the amount is normally minimal - FA Virginia for example is good at 2%.

I couldn't abide the FA Virginia, it smells and tastes like rotten celery to me. ecigexpress has a couple of TobaccoExpress flavors I'm planning to try, called "Virginia" and "Golden Virginia." The Golden sounds more like what I'm after, but I can't really know for sure until I taste it compared to the other one.

As for the PG... I might be able to try that eventually, but right now I have a fair stock of high PG juices, that I don't want to go to waste. So I'm mixing them, where I can, with other juices that are diluted high VG. And I have a couple of real faves that are 50/50, Hard Rock Vapor makes some excellent ejuices, so I leave them almost completely alone, just add maybe .2ml of water per tank.

Also I'm still a bit nervous of the VG, given the extreme nature of the problem it caused me before, not being able to breathe -- frankly an order of magnitude worse problem than swollen ankles! -- so I want to raise the VG level very slowly and carefully, so if there does start to be a problem, I'll realize it before it becomes really severe. Tobacco harm reduction is pretty useless if you end up smothering yourself with VG (or giving yourself a heart attack because your electrolytes are so out of whack!).

Andria

 

[Exchaner]

I am beginning to question whether VG is any less dehydrating than PG. I have heard if you expose both to open air, the VG will absorb more of the moisture - to the point where you will notice change on the surface of the VG. Can anyone chime in with some documentation comparing the two?

 

[AndriaD]

I am beginning to question whether VG is any less dehydrating than PG. I have heard if you expose both to open air, the VG will absorb more of the moisture - to the point where you will notice change on the surface of the VG. Can anyone chime in with some documentation comparing the two?

I've been trying to find some sort of comparison like that in wikipedia, but so far no luck. However, I *did* see VG described as "hygroscopic" which is the property of PG that I think is responsible for dehydration. What that property means, I think, is that it grabs water and hangs on to it, even the water that's supposed to be in your body, it just grabs it and ties it up so it's not available to the body.

If I was a chemist, or maybe even if I'd just taken chemistry, I might understand the scientific jargon better; wikipedia provides numerous stats on both chemicals, but they really don't mean anything to me.

Andria

 

[Mailablemage]

I actually just logged in to make a thread about just this topic. Ive been noticing symptoms of dehydration for about a week now. Swollen feet, dry mouth, gum and teeth pain, headaches, irritability.

I finally got myself a decent sized water bottle. The goal is to drink at least 5000 mils of water a day at least. Especially since its been extremely hot here in southern oregon. Im pretty sure its still almost 100 degrees outside.

I was also thinking of putting a small pinch of salt in the water to help with retention since I'm not really in to sports drinks unless I'm nursing a hangover .

But I really don't think I can express enough how important drinking your water is. Remember people, take a puff and a chug.

 

[Exchaner]

It must be really hot in Oregon.... If I remember correctly the recommended amount is 8 glasses of water per day. That translates to approximately 2000 ml or less.

 

[Mailablemage]

It must be really hot in Oregon.... If I remember correctly the recommended amount is 8 glasses of water per day. That translates to approximately 2000 ml or less.

Yep, its been triple digits for almost 2 weeks now. The worst part is that it doesn't start getting dark till 9:30. So its hot all the time. 8 glasses is fine for a non vaper. but moisture is constantly being sucked out of us when we vape so we need much more than that.

 

[AndriaD]

If you're already that dry, water alone may not be enough, and drinking that much may actually make the situation worse; it's flushing electrolytes that you need out of your body.

I don't blame you one iota about the sports drinks; one and all, they're pretty nasty, but they didn't correct the problem for me either. My own best success is with coconut water, though I'm aware that some people are allergic to anything from a coconut -- my own son for instance. In that case, I'd recommend adding fruit juice to the total liquids consumed; most fruit juices are fairly high in potassium, but as a dietary source, it shouldn't play hell with the balance even if you're taking one of the medicines that fiddles with sodium/potassium. I add about an ounce of pineapple juice to every 7oz of coconut water, so it's not so sweet, and pineapple juice seems to have a pretty good bit of potassium itself.

WATER ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH. Especially if you've got those puffy ankles, it's more than just dehydration at this point, it's electrolyte imbalance, and just drinking more and more water will only make it worse, if you don't try to replace and balance the lost electrolytes. I had a hard time accepting/understanding this; I drank and drank and drank, water water sports-drink water, all day long, and just kept ...... constantly, wondering why I was ...... so much if I was so dehydrated -- because: dehydration LEADS to electrolyte imbalance; once it gets to that point, you can drink enough water to float a battleship, but if you don't replace the electrolytes and try to get them balanced, the problem will not go away, it will just keep getting worse.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I've done a bit more reading on this property that PG and VG apparently share, but what I can't seem to find is in what proportion they share it. I've learned that both are "alcohols," though they differ chemically; apparently glycols "contain 2 -OH groups" (which I think makes them a "double alcohol" and glycerols (VG) "contain 3 -OH groups." Which I guess makes them a triple alcohol. I've also learned that you can actually create PG from VG. VG seems chemically to be closer to an oil-type substance, though in the properties detailed in wikipedia, VG is described as "miscible" in water, which apparently (?) means "fully soluble, forming a solution." I also noted that adding water to VG not only creates a solution, but changes VG's chemical properties somewhat, so this may be the key; adding water to the VG before trying to vape it. But that's total conjecture; as noted, I really know nothing about chemistry, beyond a simple layman's understanding of the most basic terms.

But as for a comparison of either their hygroscopic properties, *or* potential to cause dehydration (which *might* be the same thing?), I can't find anything. If anyone has any kind of background in chemistry, maybe you could find out.

Andria

 

[Exchaner]

Thanks Andrea, good info. I'll try and see what else I could find. Meantime I started a thread on the subject , and a couple of people seem to think pg and vg are equally dehydrating.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/582509-vg-dehydration.html

 

[AndriaD]

Thanks Andrea, good info. I'll try and see what else I could find. Meantime I started a thread on the subject , and a couple of people seem to think pg and vg are equally dehydrating.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/582509-vg-dehydration.html

Not sure I really want to .... in to the conversation there; they all seem convinced that simply drinking more water will fix the problem, and as I've learned, that just ain't so, sometimes drinking more water just makes it worse. But they didn't ask my opinion, so I don't feel like being Ms. Buttinsky Knowitall and offering it gratuitously. I started this thread primarily *because* just drinking more water is not the solution to the problem if the problem has already moved into electrolyte-imbalance territory (puffy ankles, sore feet, etc), yet people just keep repeating over and over, drink more water, drink more water. Drinking more water when you're in that condition just flushes more electrolytes, with all the .......

Andria