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Diacetyl in butterscotch and caramel

Discussion in 'Clouds of Vapor' started by J**2, Apr 23, 2012.

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  1. Bigbuyer

    Bigbuyer Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Sep 5, 2009
    Florida, USA
  2. J**2

    J**2 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2012
    Medical Lake, WA, USA
    Nicotine in juice is .024 for 24 mg juice or 2.4 % solution. So you are saying that diacetyl is 1/10 as concentrated as nicotine ???

    The real issue is what is more important 1) Exposure to high concentration briefly such as the famous case 2nd to popcorn popping or 2) cumulative exposure. There are many poisons in our environment that are found at low levels which are felt to not be of importance because they don't reach a threshold for toxcicity. Is this the case ? Beats me.


    GG, Provari, iatty2, DIY wannabe chef
     
  3. Teach

    Teach Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 3, 2010
    Florida
    J** not sure you can compare Nic to diacetyl, butdiacetyl does occur naturally in many things - take a look at the diacetylselection in wikipedia - simplified for us common folk.

    If you can make it through the day without eating or inhaling it, I'd be surprised.One thing to consider, if small doses are so bad, why do I keep smellingpopcorn in the halls at school? The FDA will protect our young people fromdiacetyl in e-cig juice which they aren't supposed to have access to in thefirst place, but they'll let those popcorn fumes waft down the hallway intohundreds of little lungs? That would be a scary thought! :confused:
     
  4. Lethalp

    Lethalp Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 29, 2011
    Indiana
    I received a sample of the vanilla cream at Vapebash, and just found it in all my stuff from there a couple days ago. So I loaded up a carto with it and vaped it and really started liking it. So that lead me to the site to explore more of the flavors. I needed more description and impressions of the juice so I came on here to see what flavors ppl were liking.

    Then I stumbled on this thread...

    Now I have mixed emotions about this new flavor I was loving. And while it's great that Bruce put it out there on the website, and has disclosed the info on this thread, I had no idea that there was even an issue with the sample I got. Maybe he didn't know at that time I dunno. But now I am bummed, and don't know if I should vape anymore or not. Makes me wonder how many other juices I have with this stuff in it. Will we ever really know?? Is it even anything to worry about in the percentage we are getting? Maybe someone should ask the popcorn ppl? Seems they should know. I know ppl still make popcorn, and even with a mask I would assume employees still inhale same of it.
     
  5. Digital-Dragon

    Digital-Dragon Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2011
    Lethalp, I think that j**2 just made bruce aware of the issue very recently.

    Most other flavorings, besides those that come from Nature's Flavors, like tpa, fa, capp, etc., either don't contain diacetyl, or list on the site which flavors have it. I read a thread saying that fa used to contain diacetyl, but they don't anymore. But short of getting it tested ourselves I guess we can't know for sure. As far as pre-mixed juices, there is a thread on ecf that is just a list of vendors that aren't supposed to contain it.

    And as far as how much is safe, I don't think anybody knows that for sure yet.
     
  6. MrWarspite

    MrWarspite Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Mar 20, 2012
    North Carolina
    From what i can dig up it seems diacetyl is in everything with butter,caramel,coffee, and cream flavor in it. It is generally regarded as safe for ingestion. Inhalation is another story as seen by osha looking at work place safety for popcorn workers who inhale the vapor for 8 hours per day. Diacetyl is also in analog cigarette smoke and is one of the most prevalent compunds in it, 2nd only to Acetaldehyde.

    The osha reports state that popcorn factory workers are exposed to 1-8 ppm. The guy who go lung damage from eating 2 bags per day of the heavy butter microwave popcorn was also exposed to 3ppm in his kitchen.

    the scary part is what is replacing diacetyl, the replacements are worse in different ways. So the vendors that have replaced it, what have they replaced it with is the question?

    We dont know how much of the diacetyl thats in a juice actually makes its way from the coil to you but given bruce's statement of < 1/4 of 1%, id wager its way less than is in analog cigarette smoke.

    I think its safe to say that diacetyl or its unknown, and possibly worse, replacement is in just about every juice out there but in a lower quantity than what is in analog cigarette smoke. Bruce is just the only vendor talking about it.
     
  7. AlmightyGod

    AlmightyGod My friends call me A.G. Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 23, 2010
    Vaping Heaven
    I'm going to vape it anyway. :)

    The stuff is good.

    Diacetyl is in natural flavorings, and the levels in these juices are miniscule.

    I'm not telling anyone else to do it, but Bruce has been vaping this stuff for a year, and he's ok.

    The FDA would have you believe the same stuff about vaping in general.

    Yes...someday I may jump from a plane without a parachute.;)
     
  8. Killjoy1

    Killjoy1 Ω Destroyer Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 15, 2011
    New Hampshire, US
    Just an interesting point that I heard elsewhere: cigarettes contain a trace amount of diacetyl, too, so we have been inhaling small quantities of it prior to vaping, anyway. Doesn't make it any better, really, but it was still an interesting point. I wish I could find a concrete reference on it


    EDIT: and BTW, I still plan on trying both the butterscotch and vanilla cream on my next CoV order, regardless ;-)
     
  9. Scottinboca

    Scottinboca Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 14, 2011
    Planet Vapton
    I think it's great that Bruce is upfront about this, as it proves that he does care about his fellow vapers. I found this on the OSHA website - Hazard Communication Guidance for Diacetyl and Food Flavorings Containing Diacetyl. As a point of reference 0.0025=25ppm(parts-per million). I think everything has risk in life, but if the number Bruce got was accurate, I don't think that it would cause any harm. As more studies are done, more data will become available on the effects of diacetyl. If you don't feel comfortable vaping it, don't vape it. At least the facts are on the table.
     
  10. Teach

    Teach Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 3, 2010
    Florida
    The diacetyl issue is certainly going to be there when the FDA points out the harmfulness of the 'demon e-cig' and they have made it rather obvious that they are interested only in banning rather than helping to create a safer alternative to tobacco. If you think about it, the FDA is protecting the tobacco industry by trying to stamp out the only real completion it has. Were I a doctor with the FDA, I think I would be having some severe moral conflicts.

    I think Bruce is tops for putting this out there for us to make the decision, and to be able to understand what’s going on. Personally, since I find no definitive information on the effects of such small amounts and my Dr. told me to ditch the buttered popcorn years ago and I have 2 giganto bottles of COVBS in backup – I think I’ll vape and research on it some more…..
     
  11. okwithit

    okwithit Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 11, 2011
    michigan
    well now, i guarantee you you will not be sorry for getting both these juices they are absolutely wonderfull vapes.

    edit: if your not happy with them send this way as i will take them off your hands!!!!!:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:cov:vapor:cov:vapor:cov:vapor:


    EDIT: and BTW, I still plan on trying both the butterscotch and vanilla cream on my next CoV order, regardless ;-)[/QUOTE]
     
  12. Lethalp

    Lethalp Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 29, 2011
    Indiana
    The whole reason I love this vanilla cream is because it's the best buttery tasting vape I have had! Lol my daughter walked through after I vaped and asked "where is the popcorn?" :). Guess I will most likely buy more, not because I am trying to show how much I don't care about diacty, but because it's so damn good! I vape wta too, so I guess one more unknown does not matter. At least not to me.

    I am certain, there are far more dangerous things we ingest on a daily basis, that we don't know about. So my question now is, are these the only 2 juices that contain the minuscule amounts? Now I can get back to what I came here for in the first place, which was finding out more about the juices, and what ppl were saying.

    Guess I will start another thread :) thanks for the education


    Sent from my vaping lair
     
  13. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 23, 2009
    Wisconsin
    Well, I'll add what I discovered in my research, and that's anything with a 'buttery' texture or feeling in your mouth is indeed diacetyl. This includes any naturally-occuring flavors, as diacetyl is a natural compound. So any 'organic' or 'natural' flavor that has that buttery or custardy taste/feeling? Yep. Diacetyl. Don't let any supplier tell you any different.

    And FYI, there are also some creamy-fruit compounds that contain trace amounts of the nasty stuff, but not as much as the butter and custard. Now, I have no idea and am not claiming to know what vaping this stuff means to us and our lungs, I'm just saying that anything that has butter or custard notes does indeed have diacetyl in it. Vape at your own risk. It's your body, you can make the choice.
     
  14. Digital-Dragon

    Digital-Dragon Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2011
    Thanks for the info Pheisty, I totally agree. I wish it was easier to find out for sure which flavors have it and which don't. For example, one of my 3 all-time favorite vapes is gingerbread from nature's flavors, but I'm not sure if it has diacetyl or not... The other 2 are boba's, (I read somewhere it doesn't have it, but who knows for sure...) and kona coffee milkshake from virgin vapor, and since they are also "natural and organic" I'm now wondering which of thier flavors have it, seems like all the creamy and buttery ones probably do contain it...
     
  15. J**2

    J**2 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2012
    Medical Lake, WA, USA
    TPA has good notes with regard to the diacetyl issue. They even have two flavorings that are identical EXCEPT one has the diacetyl taken out. Good place to train your tastebuds.


    GGTS, Provari , Reonaut, DIY wannabe chef
     
  16. J**2

    J**2 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2012
    Medical Lake, WA, USA
    From TPA site



    "Acetyl propionyl and acetoin.

    Both of these ingredients are replacements for diacetyl, which is no longer being used by many (but not all) flavor manufacturers. There are some who still include diacetyl in their flavors, but it is not used as an ingredient in any of the flavors we offer. Athough acetyl propionyl and acetoin are regarded as safe for use in Food Flavors, there are studies being done as to whether there are problems with inhalation.........

    Any time you have a flavor that has a vanilla-custardy type note to it, it will have one or both of acetyl propionyl and acetoin. There is also the possibility that there will be Diacetyl as an added ingredient, (the flavor manufacturing company that we purchase our flavors from is restricted by their insurance from using Diacetyl as an ingredient, because of employee environmental health issues, but this is not true of all flavor manufacturing companies).

    The flavor notes of diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin are rather obvious, and once a person learns how to recognize them, they are easy to spot. Just like once you know what cinnamon tastes like, you can usually tell if a cocoa recipe has cinnamon in it just by taste!

    Our vanilla custard is a good example. Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl).

    If you would like to learn a bit how to tell the differences, you can compare our Vanilla Custard (which has both acetoin and acetyl propionyl), with our Vanilla Bean Ice Cream. The Vanilla Bean Ice cream does not have any acetoin in it, but otherwise is the same flavor as the Vanilla Custard. So by tasting the two, you can learn to taste the difference between them and learn what acetoin 'brings to the party'. I like to experiment by tasting flavors in Cool Whip.......

    Then you can taste our original French Vanilla Flavor, which has neither acetoin nor acetyl propionyl, and compare with our French Vanilla Deluxe, or the Vanilla Beach Ice Cream, or the Vanilla Custard, which has them. You can see how the flavors are different.

    By learning how to recognize these flavor components, you will be more able to recognize them in flavors by other manufacturers too!

    Sometimes only a little bit of these "custardy" notes are added, just as a subtle nuance. For example our waffle has a little bit, but not nearly as much as the Vanilla Custard......."


    Hope this helps..... Jeff




    GGTS, Provari , Reonaut, DIY wannabe chef
     
  17. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 23, 2009
    Wisconsin
    Thanks for posting those notes from TPA, Jeff.

    I can pick out diacetyl pretty quickly. When I vape something that has that buttery, slippery, smooth feeling, I know that the nasty stuff is in there. It isn't so much a taste to me as a 'feeling'. For example, I was ordering eliquid from one of the more popular 'natural' e-juice manufacturers. It was an almond/amaretto type liquid, but I could definitely tell that it was more 'slippery' than my other liquids. I can guarantee you that it had diacetyl in it. I stopped vaping it immediately.

    Then, there are those others that are a given... Any gooey butter cake, butter anything, or vanilla custard will have it. Creams, on the other hand, don't necessarily have it. That's why it's important to get an understanding of how diacetyl tastes and feels. Keep in mind that eating diacetyl is not bad for you, but inhaling it is.
     
  18. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 23, 2009
    Wisconsin
    I can pretty much tell you with some certainty that Boba's is fine, as is KCM from virgin vapor. However, who really knows unless a complete analysis is done? I think you're pretty safe (again, just my opinion) with these two. Just get to know that slippery buttery feeling or taste that is in some juices, and you'll be able to identify the ones that have it...at least, those that have the highest concentration of it.
     
  19. Digital-Dragon

    Digital-Dragon Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2011
    So, it seems virgin vapor is actually an unknown: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/virgin-vapor/252051-contain-diacetyl-diketones.html
    My gut instinct is just what Pheisty already said; that all organic dairy flavors contain the trace amounts, like cov. Too bad. It will be great when lab analysis of flavors is commonplace.
     
  20. bah-num

    bah-num Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 2, 2010
    Florida
    I know this thread has been dormant for a couple months, but people might wind up here as they research diacetyl, and this requires correction:

    1/4 of 1% does reduce down to 0.0025, but it's still a dimensionless quantity and doesn't relate in any way to a "per ml" standard. We're talking percentages in a solution. No matter what the quantity, it's always going to be 1/4 of 1% (or 0.25% or 0.0025, however you want to write it, it's the same value).

    With that being said, the ppm concentration of the juice in question is not 25ppm... it's 2,500ppm. THAT IS EXTREMELY HIGH! Based on all the studies I've read concerning diacetyl, the largest concentration observed at one of those factories was around 1,200ppm. But the concentration levels were all over the place. Some areas were several hundred, others only 100, yet others were 5-25 and some were below detectable limits. To put things in perspective, in 2009 OSHA was considering time weighted average thresholds between 0.05-1ppm and short term limits between 0.2-4ppm. They decided not to do this and, instead, basically said "we're just gonna say this isn't safe at all (effectively a PEL of 0ppm) and do a butt load more research and come back to this".

    However... this is all a crapshoot... especially when it comes to us. What constitutes a "million parts" when it comes to vaping? Is it how much is in the juice? In the vapor? How much of it is even vaporized and reaches our lungs? Then you have to consider that only a very small percentage (something like 1.2%) of all those workers who were exposed to some measurable concentration of diacetyl 8hrs/day 5 day/week, came down with the disease. Some just got some asthma and shortness of breath, those symptoms went away in some people and others didn't have any adverse effects at all. There are so many variables and unknowns that it's impossible to say anything with any certainty.

    Some light reading:

    OSHA Direction 2011

    April 2008: OSHA Convenes SBREFA Panel on Diacetyl Proposal


    So far it's been shown that many (if not all) of these "replacements" are almost identical to diacetyl, and preliminary studies have shown that they have the same adverse effects on the respiratory system. Where they differ is in the fact they are less water soluble. This means they can more easily get deeper into the respiratory system (deeper into the lungs, meaning potentially more harmful). How much this effects us as vapors I don't know. Afterall, the whole concept of vaping revolves around "inhaling deep into the lungs". I don't know of anyone who puts their PV in their nose, so we're bypassing the protective aspects of our upper respiratory system anyway... like I said earlier, it's all a crapshoot.

    Before you go thinking I'm here just to scare folks, or to tell you what to vape and what not to vape, just know that is far from the case. I just saw some concerning math and felt morally obligated to correct it. I'm right there with ya! These compounds make for the most delicious juices ever conceived! Ever since I picked up a bottle of Killa Vanilla at a local shop, I've been on a mission to recreate it myself. When I finally did I realized that it was these damned butter compounds that make it so damn good (I tried a lot of vanilla flavorings that didn't have them... none of them cut it). I still have a 5ml bottle of "the good stuff" mixed up that I vape on rare occasions;) It's just so good I can't help myself sometimes!

    What we need is a lab that can take a PV, hook it up to a machine that can take in the vapor that comes off of it, and measure how much of this stuff ends up in our lungs.

    Bruce, I commend you for tackling this issue head on and getting your juices tested and for working toward a diacetyl free formulation that still satisfies:)

    Vape safe folks!
     
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