Diacetyl question

[rolygate]

What is your take on the diacetyl issue, Nick?

I'm using plenty of your coconut right now so this is of interest to me, as it seems likely that it may contain it. FlavourArt for example list their coconut as having more diacetyl in than anything else other than butter. (Coconut 0.5%, butter 1.5% - info from Liberty Flights page on FA flavours.)

Incidentally your coconut is magic at 5 volts on a 510. Made some VG Coconut Mint - coconut, peppermint oil, menthol, Ecopure base - and not only does it hold up well on the 510 at 5 volts but it's just superb. My #1 right now - mind you next month it will be something different...

 

[Nick O'Teen]

What is your take on the diacetyl issue, Nick?

I'm using plenty of your coconut right now so this is of interest to me, as it seems likely that it may contain it. FlavourArt for example list their coconut as having more diacetyl in than anything else other than butter. (Coconut 0.5%, butter 1.5% - info from Liberty Flights page on FA flavours.)

Incidentally your coconut is magic at 5 volts on a 510. Made some VG Coconut Mint - coconut, peppermint oil, menthol, Ecopure base - and not only does it hold up well on the 510 at 5 volts but it's just superb. My #1 right now - mind you next month it will be something different...

I don't consider there to be a totally "safe" level of diacetyl by inhalation, so I do as much as I can to avoid diacetyl in all our flavours - we source diacetyl-free components wherever possible (and pay extra for custom formulations where necessary,) and where not possible (in only a few cases,) I distil as much of the diacetyl out as I possibly can in the lab (everything that fractionates out between 87 and 89'C goes in the bin - though I generally replace lost ethanol in flavours that contain it, which also expresses in this range, and aids the removal of diacetyl.)
Diacetyl does form azeotropes with water, ethanol and glycols, but we certainly manage to remove the majority of it.

Glad you're enjoying the coconut - I'm pleased to say that we do now have a supplier for 100% diacetyl-free coconut, though a lot of the stock that's out there ATM is reduced-diacetyl (greatly reduced, I hope!) that we've processed, rather than guaranteed diacetyl-free from the point of formulation.

The last few flavours that we still have to process the diacetyl out of are tiramisu, rhubarb crumble and French Apple Tart (actually we have found a supplier for d-free tiramisu now, so that will be the next flavour to be ticked off the list.) These should already be reduced to =< the levels found in analog tobacco, and we're working very hard to eliminate even these last traces from the manufacturing chain. It's a lot less to worry about if there's none included in the first place.

 

[rolygate]

Thanks Nick, appreciate that info.

 

[markarich159]

Thanks Nick, appreciate that info.

Now, Roly, that's the type of answer ALL eliquid suppliers should be able to generate(in regards to their formulations/manufacturing/R&D and QC). It's quite obvious Nick (or his colleague/consultant) has an industry appropriate grasp of chemistry(as he/she knows what a fractional distillation column is-and how to use it- and can use the word azeotrope in its proper context - the honesty in his admission of the difficulty of breaking the azeotropic diacetyl solution is also refreshing). It's also apparent that R & D and Quality Control is considered fairly important seeing Nick's obvious concern at diacetyl(2,3 butanedione) removal from his product. This UK eliquid supplier appears far ahead of anything I've seen in the US - KUDOS!!! I may have to pick up a bottle. I'm an RY4 fan, any suggestions???

Just checked TW USA, no Vanilla or White Chocolate even listed. I was totally ready to order too when I saw the 50% off. Denied yikes!!!

 

[rolygate]

Well as you say, Mark, the answer ticked all the right boxes

My opinion isn't much use because without the background any opinion is worthless, but I do feel happier about buying Nick's product than others. I see you're satisfied with his reply too.

Many e-liquid suppliers either wouldn't have a clue what he was on about there or wouldn't be able to fix the problem anyway - so as you imply, there is some way to go before we can say "E-liquids are as safe as can be reasonably achieved".

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Now, Roly, that's the type of answer ALL eliquid suppliers should be able to generate(in regards to their formulations/manufacturing/R&D and QC). It's quite obvious Nick (or his colleague/consultant) has an industry appropriate grasp of chemistry(as he/she knows what a fractional distillation column is-and how to use it- and can use the word azeotrope in its proper context - the honesty in his admission of the difficulty of breaking the azeotropic diacetyl solution is also refreshing). It's also apparent that R & D and Quality Control is considered fairly important seeing Nick's obvious concern at diacetyl(2,3 butanedione) removal from his product. This UK eliquid supplier appears far ahead of anything I've seen in the US - KUDOS!!! I may have to pick up a bottle. I'm an RY4 fan, any suggestions???

Just checked TW USA, no Vanilla or White Chocolate even listed. I was totally ready to order too when I saw the 50% off. Denied yikes!!!

LOL - yeah, when they announced that sale everything started suddenly selling faster than they could replenish it I'm afraid Don't worry - I'm sure normal service will be resumed ASAP (though they'll be scaling down the number of premixed DV juices they're going to stock - there are just too many possible combinations now, with the 60+ flavours we're producing.)
In the meantime, both Very Vanilla and White Chocolate are in stock and available as concentrates, if you don't mind mixing your own.
If you like RY4, hmmm... well, it's not an exceptionally close match, but you might also like our Cocoyam. There are distinctly similar pyrazine notes, though it's a rounder, deeper flavour overall.

 

[Kent C]

LOL - yeah, when they announced that sale everything started suddenly selling faster than they could replenish it I'm afraid Don't worry - I'm sure normal service will be resumed ASAP (though they'll be scaling down the number of premixed DV juices they're going to stock - there are just too many possible combinations now, with the 60+ flavours we're producing.)
In the meantime, both Very Vanilla and White Chocolate are in stock and available as concentrates, if you don't mind mixing your own.
If you like RY4, hmmm... well, it's not an exceptionally close match, but you might also like our Cocoyam. There are distinctly similar pyrazine notes, though it's a rounder, deeper flavour overall.

Habana reserve is completely out in flavors too. I mention it because someone asked me about it and then it was noted that it's been gone for a while. (not for me ;-) ....

 

[CatVTTV]

Thanks for asking that question Roly.. I only use Nick's juices and concentrates, and Coconut is my main vape too.

Nick is there any chance you could come along to UK Vapefest? I know you are a busy guy, but it would be fantastic to have you there for a Q & A session.

It's to be held in Tamworth, beside Birmingham on the 23rd October.

Would love to see you there..

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Thanks for asking that question Roly.. I only use Nick's juices and concentrates, and Coconut is my main vape too.

Nick is there any chance you could come along to UK Vapefest? I know you are a busy guy, but it would be fantastic to have you there for a Q & A session.

It's to be held in Tamworth, beside Birmingham on the 23rd October.

Would love to see you there..

If you guys would like to have me, I'd be happy to come
If you could drop me an IM with the details (time and place,) I'll check I'm not supposed to be anywhere else on the 23rd (should be fine.)

 

[CatVTTV]

Wonderful News !

PM on its way to you..

 

[ckc]

Nick,i'd also like to say thankyou for the answer to rolygate's question. I feel a tad strange having to ask suppliers that question!

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Never be afraid to ask suppliers what's in their juice - they're your lungs you're inhaling the stuff into. And if a supplier doesn't know or doesn't want to say, well - I wouldn't buy from them.

 

[markarich159]

Never be afraid to ask suppliers what's in their juice - they're your lungs you're inhaling the stuff into. And if a supplier doesn't know or doesn't want to say, well - I wouldn't buy from them.

Well said!!!!!!

 

[markarich159]

If you like RY4, hmmm... well, it's not an exceptionally close match, but you might also like our Cocoyam. There are distinctly similar pyrazine notes, though it's a rounder, deeper flavour overall.

The CocoYam sounds like something I'd like to try. I can't find it on the TW USA site anywhere, however. Is it available(to the USA) through anyone else? Thanks.

 

[jcamacho]

I sure hope our USA suppliers take the same route you are taking Nick. There's one here in particular (very popular) that stated we took our chances when we used to smoke....wrong answer!

 

[BigJohnJ]

Yeah and I just put a big order in with that supplier today. Not happy with their reply. Nick, do you ship to the usa? I'd feel much safer buying from someone like you.

Regards,

John

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Yeah and I just put a big order in with that supplier today. Not happy with their reply. Nick, do you ship to the usa? I'd feel much safer buying from someone like you.

Regards,

John

Not routinely at the moment I'm afraid (waiting to see how the FDA court case situation resolves - probably will resume direct shipping to the US then if they lose,) but TW in Florida stock a wide range of our products (they handle their own importing.) They're slimming down their premixed DV range (there are just too many 100s of flavour/strength combinations to hope to keep fully stocked,) but they will continue to stock all the flavour concentrates, Platinum Ice, mixing kits, etc.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

The CocoYam sounds like something I'd like to try. I can't find it on the TW USA site anywhere, however. Is it available(to the USA) through anyone else? Thanks.

It'll be there soon. It's a new flavour, and I'm not sure if we've already dispatched any to the US (I think we have, but I'm laid up in bed ATM and don't have access to the paperwork,) but if not, it'll be in the next shipment. I know they've been having some delays recently with customs, but I'm sure it won't take long.
TWUK do ship direct to the US if you really can't wait, but the postage is a bit high for small orders (I know some folks club together to put in joint orders for stuff that's not stocked stateside, so that's something to consider if you're desparate )

 

[GiMante]

I don't consider there to be a totally "safe" level of diacetyl by inhalation, so I do as much as I can to avoid diacetyl in all our flavours - we source diacetyl-free components wherever possible (and pay extra for custom formulations where necessary,) and where not possible (in only a few cases,) I distil as much of the diacetyl out as I possibly can in the lab (everything that fractionates out between 87 and 89'C goes in the bin - though I generally replace lost ethanol in flavours that contain it, which also expresses in this range, and aids the removal of diacetyl.)
Diacetyl does form azeotropes with water, ethanol and glycols, but we certainly manage to remove the majority of it.

Glad you're enjoying the coconut - I'm pleased to say that we do now have a supplier for 100% diacetyl-free coconut, though a lot of the stock that's out there ATM is reduced-diacetyl (greatly reduced, I hope!) that we've processed, rather than guaranteed diacetyl-free from the point of formulation.

The last few flavours that we still have to process the diacetyl out of are tiramisu, rhubarb crumble and French Apple Tart (actually we have found a supplier for d-free tiramisu now, so that will be the next flavour to be ticked off the list.) These should already be reduced to =< the levels found in analog tobacco, and we're working very hard to eliminate even these last traces from the manufacturing chain. It's a lot less to worry about if there's none included in the first place.

Nick, could you please keep us updated as to when these last few flavors are diacetyl free?

Also, am I safe in assuming that your flavorings are also 2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl) free??

 

[CatVTTV]

Sorry to hear you are unwell Nick.

Hope you feel much better soon...