Diketones, Diacetyl, etc....

[Jonner]

For anyone interested in the issues, and vendors who are providing diketone-free e-liquids, and lab certification to prove it:

AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

 

[Mazinny]

Jonner, all AEMSA vendors do not provide lab certificates. I know of only one that does ( there may be others ).

Here is an interview with Lou Ritter from AEMSA ( starts around the 49 minute mark :

https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/diac...rming?in=vp-live/sets/the-click-bang-archives

 

[Jonner]

I will give that a listen, but off the top of my head, I believe at least 2- Mountain Oak Vapors and The Vapor Bar.

 

[Jonner]

Either way, it's a good resource.

 

[Mazinny]

Ok, i didn't know the Vapor Bar is an AEMSA member.

 

[crazyjuiceflavors]

I listen to this and here my view on this matter.

AEMSA is a joke and means little in protecting the consumers.

Listen to around 1:25:00

1. if you don't test EVERY batch you can't say Diketones, Diacetyl, etc are not in your products. <- were is consumer protection?
2. AEMSA does not enforce testing of every batch at the flavor vender level. <- were is consumer protection?
3. You can still have Diketones, Diacetyl, etc in your products and still be part of AEMSA? <- were is consumer protection?

 

[Alex Zandra]

I listen to this and here my view on this matter.

AEMSA is a joke and means little in protecting the consumers.

Listen to around 1:25:00

1. if you don't test EVERY batch you can't say Diketones, Diacetyl, etc are not in your products. <- were is consumer protection?
2. AEMSA does not enforce testing of every batch at the flavor vender level. <- were is consumer protection?
3. You can still have Diketones, Diacetyl, etc in your products and still be part of AEMSA? <- were is consumer protection?

Unfortunately, I think AEMSA might also be a joke. What ^ said, but also they are SO frickin' expensive for venders to join--prohibitively expensive in some cases. I think they might be a scam...lol

 

[Robino1]

AEMSA is not a scam. Yes, they are expensive to join and a lot of small vendors cannot afford their membership fees. I do think that what they are trying to do is noble in thought. There was a HUGE thread on here when they first started up. A lot of back and forth from ECF members because of AEMSA's stance on WTA and coloring.

AEMSA is a vendor based, vendor backed organization, trying to create a Standard. Their purpose was to hopefully create this standard so that the FDA could see that with an organization in place, the FDA wouldn't see the need to regulate liquids with draconian rules.

AEMSA is a legitimate organization, not a joke or a scam. You may or may not agree with what they are doing.... that is a whole different conversation.

 

[Mazinny]

AEMSA is a professional trade association, not an independent regulatory body nor a consumer protection agency. They set standards for their (voluntary )members to follow, and they represent their members. The member dues are voted for by the members themselves. Yes, a lot of mom and shop vendors can't afford the seven hundred odd dollars a month it costs to be a member but considering they have less than thirty members that is not a lot of money they bring in monthly considering what they do ( attend fda workshops, check member facilities for verification etc ... ).

Can they guaranty that that there are no diketones in the flavors their members purchase to put in their juice ? No. But they are trying to keep them out and the individual members themselves take different steps to that end. Some members test every finished juice they market ( like the two mentioned earlier in the thread ). Others try to verify as much as they can with the flavor vendors. A heck of a lot better than vendors who knowingly put diketones in their juice because it tastes good and they will make a profit in the short run. The vast majority of these vendors have absolutely no expectation to be in business post fda regulation.

The reality is there will be some regulations put in place one way or another. If a vendor could not afford $ 700 a month AEMSA membership how could they expect to afford complying with the fda regs ? You can think what you want about AEMSA. I haven't fully made up my mind, but i don't think the monthly dues are exorbitant considering what they do and the tiny percentage of vendors that are members.

I have no expectation that my juice be completely safe if i purchase from an AEMSA vendor, but i would feel a lot more comfortable purchasing from a vendor that tries to adhere to some standards as opposed to the guy mixing his his juice in the back room of his store or in his basement.

 

[CrimsonQuill57]

AEMSA is a professional trade association, not an independent regulatory body nor a consumer protection agency. They set standards for their (voluntary )members to follow, and they represent their members. The member dues are voted for by the members themselves. Yes, a lot of mom and shop vendors can't afford the seven hundred odd dollars a month it costs to be a member but considering they have less than thirty members that is not a lot of money they bring in monthly considering what they do ( attend fda workshops, check member facilities for verification etc ... ).

Can they guaranty that that there are no diketones in the flavors their members purchase to put in their juice ? No. But they are trying to keep them out and the individual members themselves take different steps to that end. Some members test every finished juice they market ( like the two mentioned earlier in the thread ). Others try to verify as much as they can with the flavor vendors. A heck of a lot better than vendors who knowingly put diketones in their juice because it tastes good and they will make a profit in the short run. The vast majority of these vendors have absolutely no expectation to be in business post fda regulation.

The reality is there will be some regulations put in place one way or another. If a vendor could not afford $ 700 a month AEMSA membership how could they expect to afford complying with the fda regs ? You can think what you want about AEMSA. I haven't fully made up my mind, but i don't think the monthly dues are exorbitant considering what they do and the tiny percentage of vendors that are members.

I have no expectation that my juice be completely safe if i purchase from an AEMSA vendor, but i would feel a lot more comfortable purchasing from a vendor that tries to adhere to some standards as opposed to the guy mixing his his juice in the back room of his store or in his basement.

Holy crap.

I wonder if more would join if the price to join was lower. As long as they didn't go too low in the membership dues, wouldn't it be better and bring in more funding if more than a handful of vendors were joining at less cost per vendor?

 

[EJAB]

Holy crap.

I wonder if more would join if the price to join was lower. As long as they didn't go too low in the membership dues, wouldn't it be better and bring in more funding if more than a handful of vendors were joining at less cost per vendor?

AEMSA is used to promote the already established ejuice vendors and not the "newer"/smaller companies. It's like an "Angie's List" for ejuice vendors, which is driven by the financial endeavors of those involved. "Vendor backed" lol.....

 

[Mazinny]

AEMSA is used to promote the already established ejuice vendors and not the "newer/smaller companies". It's like an "Angie's List" for ejuice vendors, which is driven by the financial endeavors of those involved. "Vendor backed" lol.....

AEMSA is " used to promote " its members as any trade association group does. It does not owe an obligation to all vendors. That said, any vendor that strives to adhere to its "standards " and could afford membership fees is free to join. The funny thing is the more members it has the lower the monthly fees could go. Classic chicken or egg situation i suppose.

A lot ( but not all ) newer/smaller companies are in it to make a quick buck and have no expectation to be in this industry post regulation. This is the wild west era in this industry and there will be a consolidation ( with or without AEMSA ) of vendors as in any industry in its infancy.

Some of what AEMSA does ( paying for Dr. Farsalinos travel costs to attend FDA workshops for example ) will benefit all responsible vendors, member or not.

 

[skoony]

don't forget if and when regulations come into play AEMSE staff
will be a perfect position to influence further additional regulations
in the future as they represent the industry. much like government has
done in the past when regulating any industry they go to the industry
for guidance. which is pretty much why we're in the mess we are in.

regards
mike