DIY Help - Fruity mixes

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I think(?) OP subbed TFA Peach, and FW Kiwi, for the FA called for in the screen shot. At least, that is what I interpreted, based on the OP's list of available ingredients in their first post.

While still "higher" percentages; I don't see them being in the "muting" range. Just my opinion... :)

I generally agree with this; especially with TFA Sweetener... as it contains both sucralose, and maltol. CAP Super Sweet is a better choice; as it is only sucralose. Maltol is a serious flavor killer, and you are right, it is already present in many flavor concentrates.

My only reservation, in @StaticVaporSA's case, is they are comparing (trying to simulate) "syrupy" commercial e-liquids they are familiar with. I don't see how they can do that without the use of a sweetener (preferably CAP Super Sweet;)).

Instead, I might be inclined to suggest this:
Start with only the fruit flavors (no sweetener, or coolant). Get those tasting as intended... knowing the "sweet, syrupy" aspect will be missing. The mixture, as is... without sweetener, may taste dry/thin/or incomplete. That is okay. You are only looking for the right balance/ratios of one fruit, to the others, at this point.

Once the fruits are balanced as desired; then, begin adding sweetener, about 0.5% at a time... until desired sweetness is achieved. Then, repeat with coolant.

Note about the "Black Ice:" I am not certain, but it appears(?) to be a 20% concentration of WS-23, and not the more common 30% concentration we are used to, here in the U.S.. As such, it is not unreasonable to expect, that half again as much would be required for the same effect.

I would also say to @StaticVaporSA; that neither sweetener, nor WS-23/Black Ice, require any steeping. Therefore, they can be easily be added to an otherwise "finished" mix (to taste) without adding additional steep time.

I have found from my experience, that fruit concentrates can be true "shake & vapes," especially when used at lower percentages. However, many still benefit from a short steep (+/- 72 hours). Fruits, in particular, can have an initial chemical/artificial taste to them, and this becomes more noticeable the higher the percentage used (it is often one of the signs that you are over-flavoring).

First, try using less. If the flavor is too weak at lower percentages; let it rest for up to a week. This often allows the unwanted notes to dissipate.

If the harshness, or artificial/chemical notes are still too unpleasant, you can try to breathe/vent the mixture. ("Breathing" is the act of leaving the mixture sit uncovered (no cap, and no drip tip) to allow the volatile chemicals (like ethanol) to evaporate.) Let the mixture breathe for a couple of hours, to overnight, and retest. If, after that time, nothing improves; further breathing will not be beneficial. (Breathing can be damaging to more aromatic flavors (many lemons, some strawberries, etc.); so, always, use sparingly... if at all.)

Finally, if lower percentages are not an option, and breathing hasn't helped; the addition of a sweetener can help to take the sharp edges off. Start with no more than 0.5%, and incrementally increase (I would personally go up 0.25% at a time) the sweetener as needed. Do watch for flavor muting as you do so.

These are more advanced mixing techniques. They can bugger up a mixture as fast as fix it. So, go slowly... test vape frequently... and STOP if (at any point) it seems to start to go sideways (additional tweaking won't fix it; start over). Read this Myth Busting article (some excellent general new mixer advice) for context.

Also, mix small test batches... 10mL should be plenty... 5mL might even be enough for the initial fruit-only mixes. Conserve your ingredients. The initial goal should be to get an enjoyable mix. Creating a surplus supply should wait until you have a known "successful" recipe. Small batches are also easier to throw out (vs. feeling like you have to "fix" them).

And my final piece of advice: take notes on everything you do. Note, every mix variation, every treatment you apply. It will save you making the same mistake twice. And, it will allow you to repeat successful results. Nothing is more discouraging, than to get it "absolutely perfect," and never be able to repeat it. Notes can help prevent that. ;)

Best wishes as you begin your journey of DIY... and welcome to ECF! :D
@IDJoel

Thank you very much for your reply and the helpful information.

You are correct, i did sub the FA Peach with TFA Peach.

Ill start testing batches without the black ice and Sweetener in order to get the fruit combinations and ratio correct before amending with ice and sweetener.

Currently im mixing 10ml batches, keeping track or my mixing % in a excel sheet and also labeling then bottles with the batch version and date

Would it be correct in saying i can start off with mixing at 1% on each Concentrate and building it up from there? Ill be testing the mix daily but also letting it steep.

Regarding the breathing, i read that no more than 4 hours of breathing should be allowed or flavour my mute as well?
 
Fruits do need at least some steep imo, 3 days is okay, better at 10 days. There are very few flavors good off the shake. Most peach flavors will take over if not allowed a steep to mellow them out. Subbing flavor brands is fine and usually work but are seldom a 1:1 sub. Watching some youtube flavor notes and reading flavor notes on elr recipes or reddit are very helpful with sub percentages.
@Letitia

Thank you very much for the information

Subbing was something i was worried about and ill still have to learn how it will the outcome of the flavour.

Ill definitely have a look at reddit
 
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IDJoel

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    Currently im mixing 10ml batches, keeping track or my mixing % in a excel sheet and also labeling then bottles with the batch version and date
    :thumbs:
    Perhaps give yourself an extra cell/column/row for notes. Room for current perceptions, possible future changes, what you do and don't like, can all be helpful later on. :)
    Would it be correct in saying i can start off with mixing at 1% on each Concentrate and building it up from there? Ill be testing the mix daily but also letting it steep.
    I personally would do as @Letitia suggested, and use review and recipe sites: like All The Flavors (ATF), e-liquid Recipes (ELR)(link prohibited), and reddit, as well as YouTube (DIYorDie "Noted" episodes, and TheFogVlog flavor reviews, have been informative to me), to get an idea of how others are getting the best results using your specific concentrates. Then, typically, I will start at the low end of the general consensus, and work my way up from there.

    Also, I would council resisting the urge, to doctor one mixture repeatedly. Again, as Letitia points out, some fruits can take a while to settle into their final form. Rather, if you don't want to wait, mix a second (or third, fourth, fifth, etc.) sample with the desired changes, and leave the previous versions to fully mature.

    Too often, one can have a good mix... that just hasn't aged enough; and the mixer ruins it, by adding things that don't help (or even hurt) the final result. patience really is one of the DIYer's most valuable tools. "Less" is often more when it comes to DIYing. :)
    Regarding the breathing, i read that no more than 4 hours of breathing should be allowed or flavour my mute as well?
    Some more so than others. But, it is certainly true, that some flavors can be harmed with excessive breathing/venting.
    (Speaking in the most general of terms, and solely from my own experience (meaning anecdotal... and far from scientific) the more aromatic a concentrate is, the more likely venting can dissipate desirable flavor notes. In other words; flavors like creams or custards, which have very little aroma of their own, are less likely to be damaged by over-venting; than, say citrus, berries, and other floral/aromatic concentrates.)

    Total volume of the mix will have an impact on time too. A 10mL mix will require less time venting, than a 30mL mix. A quick sample vape, during the process, is never a bad thing. ;)

    As I mentioned before, this is more of an advanced technique, and I would personally relegate it to one of the last things to try, before dumping an experiment. If you have doubts, or are concerned about ruining a mix, don't do it. Or, take just a small portion of the mix, and vent only that. If it works; treat the rest. If it doesn't; you haven't damaged the entire batch.
    :)
     
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    Letitia

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      With steeping I find breathing is unnecessary even with alcohol based flavors. If I'm tasting before a good steep in my experience breathing a half hour is sufficient. I agree with Joel about mixing a 2 or 3 small testers of the same recipe. One I steep for at least 6 weeks before mixing a larger batch. Another thing I like to do is leave a couple ml of my sft's put up for a few weeks to check for fade. Lot of trial and error + tediousness at first but the payoff is worth it.
       

      zoiDman

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        View attachment 818993 This was +- my mango and Strawberry mix

        Just a General observation...

        If, after letting a Fruit Mix sit in a Cool/Dark place for 4 or 5 days it still tastes Meh, I would take a Good Look at the Total Flavoring % and the amount of Sweetener that was used.

        DIY is Funny. In that you reach a point where adding More flavoring Doesn't make it Better. It just makes it taste Chemical Bland.

        Also, IMO, if one is going to use High Flavoring Percentages such as 15% or More, adding a Few Drops of Water can Help a Mix from reaching the "Flavoring Wall".

        Last thing... Just about Every DIY Fruit Flavoring a person can use was designed for Cooking/Candy making. And the Recipes that they would go into are almost Always reliant on adding Sugar.

        The Flavoring is just that. A Flavoring. But the overall Sweetness comes from a Sweetener. So doing a Fruit Recipe without some amount of Sweetener can lead to some Very Bland Results.

        With TFA Sweetener, you can make a Recipe as Sweet as you want. And the Cool thing is there is No Steeping Needed. So you can just add a Drop or 2 to a 30ml Bottle, Shake and the Vape.

        And if it Isn't Sweet enough, just add another couple of Drops.

        TL/DR

        Try Lowering the Overall Flavoring %
        Try Adding a Few Drops of Water to every 15ml of Finished Mix.
        Try adding a few drops of TFA Sweetener after the Mix has steeped for 4 or 5 days if the mix Isn't Sweet Enough.
         
        I would just like to thank everyone again that has helped me thus far. The information provided has been overwhelming but educational.

        I will definitely use the information wisely and make sure i learn with every batch a make.

        My DIY days have only started and im sure in time will get more clued up on how everything works.

        Everyone here has heen so welcoming and helpful so glad i stumbled over this forum.

        Any additional information or tips are most appreciated
         

        Letitia

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          Another thing to consider is your drip tips. Try picking up a few cheap dts with different bores and heights. You might find a mix that seemed a bit weak with a wide bore dt is pretty good with a narrower bore and something too sweet is okay with a wider bore.
           

          zoiDman

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            ...

            Meaning should i aim at different % total flavour if i vape ar high wattage?

            ...

            As a General Guideline, many will Decrease the Total Flavoring % of a Mix if it is going to be used at High Wattage verses at a Low Wattage. High Flavoring Percentages can be Overpowering at High Wattages for Many.

            But once again, this is Only a General Guideline.

            BTW - What is High Wattage to you?
             
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            @Shadav thank you for your feedback on my question

            As a General Guideline, many will Decrease the Total Flavoring % of a Mix if it is going to be used at High Wattage verses at a Low Wattage. High Flavoring Percentages can be Overpowering at High Wattages for Many.

            But once again, this is Only a General Guideline.

            BTW - What is High Wattage to you?

            @zoiDman
            Thank you for the reply, high wattage would be between 95w and 110w
             
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            Hi All

            So tested 3 mixes in 10ml

            Blueberry and Blackberry
            Pre-mixed VG/PG/Nic (70/30/3mg)
            Blueberry 2%
            Blackberry 2%


            Lychee and Raspberry
            Pre-mixed VG/PG/NIC (70/30/3mg)
            Lychee 2%
            Raspberry 2%

            Lychee and Double Apple
            Pre-mixed VG/PG/Nic (70/20/3mg)
            Lychee 2%
            Double Apple 2%

            It has been steeping for about 3 days, the flavours are nice but its still very harsh on my throat when vaping? Should i let it breath?
             

            Shadav

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              is that 70vg? are you using a calculator and if so which one?
              just making sure you took into account that your nic and flavorings also have pg in them
              I plugged a test into my calculator, sorry I don't have your flavors so just used 2 random flavors, the calculations will be the same just use your two flavors instead

              upload_2019-6-9_8-28-45.png


              if it is still too harsh I'd say bump the vg up to 80%

              upload_2019-6-9_8-30-0.png
               
              is that 70vg? are you using a calculator and if so which one?
              just making sure you took into account that your nic and flavorings also have pg in them
              I plugged a test into my calculator, sorry I don't have your flavors so just used 2 random flavors, the calculations will be the same just use your two flavors instead

              View attachment 820149

              if it is still too harsh I'd say bump the vg up to 80%

              View attachment 820151
              I used a pre mixed base
              VG 70 - PG30 - Nic 3mg
              I know adding the concentrates will increase the PG, but It end up at 67/33

              Could there be something with the Nic in my base?

              I use this calculator seeing as it had a options to choose pre mixed base in the calculations.

              e-liquid-recipes
               

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              Sugar_and_Spice

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                Hi All

                So tested 3 mixes in 10ml

                Blueberry and Blackberry
                Pre-mixed VG/PG/Nic (70/30/3mg)
                Blueberry 2%
                Blackberry 2%


                Lychee and Raspberry
                Pre-mixed VG/PG/NIC (70/30/3mg)
                Lychee 2%
                Raspberry 2%

                Lychee and Double Apple
                Pre-mixed VG/PG/Nic (70/20/3mg)
                Lychee 2%
                Double Apple 2%

                It has been steeping for about 3 days, the flavours are nice but its still very harsh on my throat when vaping? Should i let it breath?
                I also find that harshness when starting a new coil/tank with newly made flavors. Since I know my mixes are the correct % that I like, I turn down the temp/watts until the harshness goes away. You sometimes have to break in a new set-up and then work up to desired temp/watts from there. It doesn't take long just don't rush through the process. Give it a try and let us know.

                :)
                 
                I also find that harshness when starting a new coil/tank with newly made flavors. Since I know my mixes are the correct % that I like, I turn down the temp/watts until the harshness goes away. You sometimes have to break in a new set-up and then work up to desired temp/watts from there. It doesn't take long just don't rush through the process. Give it a try and let us know.

                :)
                Thank you for they reply, currently im dripping on a rda thats been wicked and then cotton has been "breaked in"


                Side note: i tested a mix quickly with only the following (did not use the pre mixed base)
                Clean VG
                Clean PG
                Sweet Mango (CAP) 4%
                Koolada (TFP) 2%

                Ended in 80/20 vg/pg (did not add nic)

                No harshness at all, so now im thinking there may be an issue with the nic in my pre-mixed base i purchased?

                The local E-Liquids i purchase is 70/30 vg/pg with 3mg nic, so it cant be that the 3mg nic in the base is too strong. I did however just watch a video where the guy mentioned "old" nic may cause harshness?

                How old must nic be before it will start to cause problems?

                Im going to make another batch tomorrow but will be using the separate VG, PG and Nic i have and see if the outcome is any different than with the pre-mixed base i uses on the first batches
                 
                it's the vg level, I can not vape lower than 80% vg else it will irritate me

                higher % of nic than you are used to can cause irritation and a peppery taste

                Thats extremely strange, but then again i have never bought a local juice below 70/30

                Im going to test some 10ml tonight or tomorrow night
                 
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