Do you think E- Cig will make real cigarettes obsolete ?

[o0StatiK]

Seeing as I have friends that are not and will never be willing to use an e-cigarette. There's also some things in the media that e-cigarettes are dangerous.

The government makes wayyyyyy too much money off of tobacco sales to outlaw it. It will never happen.

 

[sailorman]

Sailorman, where could I find that law? I would love to read it


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

It's part of the Master Settlement Agreement with the tobacco companies. I guess you can google MSA.

 

[sailorman]

Yep .. and positions change .. protection now does not prevent future changes ..

As long as corporations wield massive influence in Congress, there will be no future changes. BT makes massive profits overseas. They can afford to take on the government if they ever try to reneg on the prohibition of tobacco bans. And they will win.

 

[YoureFired]

Smoking isn't allowed in the hospital PARKING LOT here even.

Now, just last week, I saw a sign driving into the mall parking lot that read something to the effect of "You have entered a tobacco free zone." Here's a news ad about it: Area malls officially tobacco-free - NEWS10 ABC: Albany, New York News, Weather, Sports

Smokers are being squeezed out little by little.

 

[supergerbil]

. It would be easier for them to ban soda or coffee or sugar or french fries.

Yeah but what happens when individual states / counties / cities start getting all Big Bro in the name of public health. Here in Cali we have more than one city that has banned public smoking, doesnt matter where. You could be in the middle of a vacant lot with no one within 100 yards but if a cop comes along, BOOM! Fined. Also at least one city near San Fran banned fast food drive-through's in the name of preventing obesity. Frisco also tried to ban happy meals because "they caused childhood obesity". NY is trying to ban soda unless the container is 16oz or smaller.

And if you have any doubt what the Gub'ment could do to "protected" categories of product (ie tobacco) just look at how firearms are regulated. Every year more and more regulations/restrictions are piled on top of something that is "protected" right there in the US constitution.

Not trying to start a political debate or anything like that. All Im saying is that the government likes control and politicians love to ban/regulate/restrict/limit in the name of the "public good". It makes for great soundbites.

*Disclaimer* When I say "government" I am referring to the US government. I dont have any idea how the governments of other countries stand on this issue.

 

[sailorman]

The governmnt makes HUGE profits from smoking. Attatched is a good article backed by some impressive studies. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/08/how-much-does-smoking-cos_n_184554.html
Sadly, society actually benifits from smokers.

That article doesn't support the conclusion that the government makes "HUGE" profits from smoking. The most reasonable interpretation of the studies is summed up by this quote:

"We were actually quite surprised by the finding because we were pretty sure that smokers were getting cross-subsidized by everybody else," said Manning, who suspects the findings would be similar today. "But it was only when we put all the pieces together that we found it was pretty much a wash."

Far from a "HUGE" profit and a pretty weak foundation from which to argue that the reason the gov't doesn't ban cigarettes is because they make too much money to do so. There is also a difference in costs to "society" and direct cost to government. Government doesn't do cost/benefit analyses to decide what to ban, except in the context of the cost/benefit to their campaign coffers. If they did such an analyses, they'd legalize the herb tomorrow and make a giant fortune in taxes and saving on law enforcement. It ain't happening.

Then, we have this:

A Dutch study published last year in the Public Library of Science Medicine journal said that health care costs for smokers were about $326,000 from age 20 on, compared to about $417,000 for thin and healthy people.

Maybe because it's a Dutch study, where the government has a role in paying for health care costs for everyone, but this quote is misleading. In the U.S., the government has a very limited role in the health care costs of young people. The younger adults are, the less likely the are to receive any gov't funded health care. The health effects of smoking don't even show up until people are much older, often at the age when they start receiving Medicare. A study including 20 and 30 year olds is useless to gauge the medical costs to gov't. of smoking. I'd like to see the statistics of people aged 50 or 55 on. I can virtually guarantee you that that the medical costs for thin healthy people from age 50 on are far less than those of smokers. If it was otherwise, insurance companies wouldn't charge smokers a higher premium.

Smokers may not live as long, thereby saving the gov't. money on Social Security payments, but that doesn't compensate for all the smokers who spend their last years in and out of hospitals, draining Medicare funds.

One heart attack at age 60 costs more than a few years of Social Security payments. Plus, SS is self funding and doesn't really cost the government anything anyway. The government costs SS money.

 

[sailorman]

Smoking isn't allowed in the hospital PARKING LOT here even.

Now, just last week, I saw a sign driving into the mall parking lot that read something to the effect of "You have entered a tobacco free zone." Here's a news ad about it: Area malls officially tobacco-free - NEWS10 ABC: Albany, New York News, Weather, Sports

Smokers are being squeezed out little by little.

Yep. That's the mall owners doing. They're a huge mall development company and they're imposing a ban on all tobacco, including smokeless tobacco, on their property, indoors and out. It seems that the private sector is as much an enemy of smokers than the government.

 

[caffeinator]

Yep. That's the mall owners doing. They're a huge mall development company and they're imposing a ban on all tobacco, including smokeless tobacco, on their property, indoors and out. It seems that the private sector is as much an enemy of smokers than the government.

Two words on why beside the obvious PC crap: Insurance Premiums.

 

[sailorman]

Yeah but what happens when individual states / counties / cities start getting all Big Bro in the name of public health. Here in Cali we have more than one city that has banned public smoking, doesnt matter where. You could be in the middle of a vacant lot with no one within 100 yards but if a cop comes along, BOOM! Fined. Also at least one city near San Fran banned fast food drive-through's in the name of preventing obesity. Frisco also tried to ban happy meals because "they caused childhood obesity". NY is trying to ban soda unless the container is 16oz or smaller.

And if you have any doubt what the Gub'ment could do to "protected" categories of product (ie tobacco) just look at how firearms are regulated. Every year more and more regulations/restrictions are piled on top of something that is "protected" right there in the US constitution.

Not trying to start a political debate or anything like that. All Im saying is that the government likes control and politicians love to ban/regulate/restrict/limit in the name of the "public good". It makes for great soundbites.

*Disclaimer* When I say "government" I am referring to the US government. I dont have any idea how the governments of other countries stand on this issue.

Are they banning the sale of tobacco? No, they're not. They're banning smoking in certain areas. That has nothing to do with a ban on tobacco as the OP seemed to think was possible.

Fast food drive thrus and Happy meals weren't covered under the legislation prohibiting a ban on tobacco either.

Any restrictions on firearms has been coming from state and local governments. The SCOTUS recently ruled on the side of gun owners a couple times, overruling DC's law against handguns for example. It's totally false to assert that every year more and more restrictions are piled on. The truth is just the opposite. CC permits are more common than ever. Employers have been unable to enforce gun bans on their premises. Entire cities have legalized open carry without restriction. Gun laws are looser than they were in 1849. The federal gov't has taken absolutely no action against guns, despite what the NRA would have you believe. In fact, the Obama administration has loosened federal regs on guns, including rules to allow them in National Parks for the first time ever. But go ahead and believe the NRA, the lobby for the firearm manufacturers. They made record profits for their constituents when their scare mongering resulted in record gun and ammunition sales after 2009 when the tinfoil hat brigade started stockpiling ammo and guns. I'm still waiting on Obama's gun ban though.

Gov't. likes to do a lot of things in the name of "public good". That's their job. Whether you personally believe it's in the public good isn't the issue, except at the ballot box. Regardless of that, when it comes to tobacco, they can only go so far and a de-facto ban or an outright ban is specifically prohibited by very strong legislation that is not going to be overturned until the tobacco companies are all bankrupt. That's not happening any time soon.

 

[sailorman]

Two words on why beside the obvious PC crap: Insurance Premiums.

No. It isn't insurance premiums. I worked in the property and casualty field for a while. The kind of insurance that covers these developments doesn't operate like that. They don't give non-smoking mall discounts. Even if they did, why ban smokeless tobacco? Why extend such a ban into the cars of your customers? Yes. The ban even applies to the private vehicles in the parking lot. This isn't about insurance premiums.

I read a long article about the company that runs these malls. They're so huge that they are probably self-insured anyway. But they're anti-tobacco zealots. It's more their own hatred of tobacco than any cost savings. In fact, they are paying guards to patrol the parking lots to catch smokers who duck out for a cigarette break in their car.

 

[WCSR]

This is not a thread about real cigarettes being banned...this is about them becoming obsolete.

I believe in time, and a short time at that, the analog will become obsolete. Just look at the past 25 years. I remember when my parents could smoke while walking through Walmart, the grocery store, airplanes, and even IN the hospital. Slowly over time, they have legislated and taxed THE biggest industry down to a shell of it's former self. Now, you're lucky if you can smoke in your own vehicle, much less anywhere outside.

15 years ago, 90% of the people I knew were smokers. Today, I bet less than 10% of the people I know are smokers. Most have quit because of cost, health, lack of places allowed for smoking, etc.


The analog is going away more rapidly every day.

 

[WCSR]

It's more about attrition than flat out "bans".

 

[supergerbil]

Are they banning the sale of tobacco? No, they're not. They're banning smoking in certain areas. That has nothing to do with a ban on tobacco as the OP seemed to think was possible.

Fast food drive thrus and Happy meals weren't covered under the legislation prohibiting a ban on tobacco either.

Any restrictions on firearms has been coming from state and local governments. The SCOTUS recently ruled on the side of gun owners a couple times, overruling DC's law against handguns for example. It's totally false to assert that every year more and more restrictions are piled on. The truth is just the opposite. CC permits are more common than ever. Employers have been unable to enforce gun bans on their premises. Entire cities have legalized open carry without restriction. Gun laws are looser than they were in 1849. The federal gov't has taken absolutely no action against guns, despite what the NRA would have you believe. In fact, the Obama administration has loosened federal regs on guns, including rules to allow them in National Parks for the first time ever. But go ahead and believe the NRA, the lobby for the firearm manufacturers. They made record profits for their constituents when their scare mongering resulted in record gun and ammunition sales after 2009 when the tinfoil hat brigade started stockpiling ammo and guns. I'm still waiting on Obama's gun ban though.

Gov't. likes to do a lot of things in the name of "public good". That's their job. Whether you personally believe it's in the public good isn't the issue, except at the ballot box. Regardless of that, when it comes to tobacco, they can only go so far and a de-facto ban or an outright ban is specifically prohibited by very strong legislation that is not going to be overturned until the tobacco companies are all bankrupt. That's not happening any time soon.

Maybe where you're at CCWs grow on trees but around here its like pulling teeth just to get on the waiting list for an interview and thats assuming you live in one of the few counties that will still issue them. (On hold until further notice is the standard line.) Its the local governments (here) that are the problem. Oh and god forbid you try an open carry; that merits a SWAT team and possibly an airstrike.

And thats kind of the point; they dont have to ban anything when they can regulate and restrict use/sale.

It may not be a problem now but right now isnt what you should be concerned about. Its 1, 3, 5, 10 and 20 years later that you should be thinking about.

But hey, thats just one mans opinion.

-EDIT-

This:

It's more about attrition than flat out "bans".

 

[sailorman]

It's more about attrition than flat out "bans".

Agreed. I must be your parents' age because I remember being able to smoke anywhere.
The OP raised the issue of bans as well as obsolescence.
I don't believe either will happen in my lifetime and probably not yours.
It won't happen over cost. I swore I'd quit when cigs hit $1 a pack.
Other combustibles are driven into the shadows more than tobacco, but their use isn't waning.
As long as there are tobacco companies, there will be cigarettes and tobacco companies aern't going anywhere anytime soon. E-cigs will take a big bite, but the U.S. isn't the only country in the world and smoking is skyrocketing in other lesser developed countries. In another 20 years, cigarettes are likely to be viewed as a status symbol in some countries and they'll be selling like Hello Kitty in a Japanese grade school.

 

[WCSR]

Maybe where you're at CCWs grow on trees but around here its like pulling teeth just to get on the waiting list for an interview and thats assuming you live in one of the few counties that will still issue them. (On hold until further notice is the standard line.) Its the local governments (here) that are the problem. Oh and god forbid you try an open carry; that merits a SWAT team and possibly an airstrike.

And thats kind of the point; they dont have to ban anything when they can regulate and restrict use/sale.

It may not be a problem now but right now isnt what you should be concerned about. Its 1, 3, 5, 10 and 20 years later that you should be thinking about.

But hey, thats just one mans opinion.

They've even figured out that we don't need more gun laws. All they need to do is tax loaded ammo and ammo supplies. All the goverment regime has to do is impose taxes so ridiculous, that only the wealthy elite can afford it.



As for big tobacco... Their worst enemy is advocate groups. Those aggressive stop smoking adds you keep seeing on TV and billboards? Yeah...they're working. The "this is your brains on drugs" adds didn't do jack diddly...but you show people with holes in their necks and missing legs, and all the sudden, people start taking it seriously.

 

[supergerbil]

Didnt want to get too OT but yeah, this too:

They've even figured out that we don't need more gun laws. All they need to do is tax loaded ammo and ammo supplies. All the goverment regime has to do is impose taxes so ridiculous, that only the wealthy elite can afford it.

Experiencing this first hand, yaaaaaay. Can we say DIY loading?

But anyways back on topic; I doubt that analogs will go away anytime soon (if at all) but if they do it will probably be the cumulative effect of higher taxes, limited local bans, and the ever increasing stigma of smoking/using tobacco.

 

[WCSR]

Agreed. I must be your parents' age because I remember being able to smoke anywhere.
The OP raised the issue of bans as well as obsolescence.
I don't believe either will happen in my lifetime and probably not yours.
It won't happen over cost. I swore I'd quit when cigs hit $1 a pack.
Other combustibles are driven into the shadows more than tobacco, but their use isn't waning.
As long as there are tobacco companies, there will be cigarettes and tobacco companies aern't going anywhere anytime soon. E-cigs will take a big bite, but the U.S. isn't the only country in the world and smoking is skyrocketing in other lesser developed countries. In another 20 years, cigarettes are likely to be viewed as a status symbol in some countries and they'll be selling like Hello Kitty in a Japanese grade school.

I'm just thinking in terms of America, I guess. The analog cigarette is a dying breed here. We've got something most countries don't have...and that is advocate groups that love to spend millions on stop smoking adds that are complete with gruesome images of people who suffered the worst case scenario. Those liberal-soccer-mom stop-smoking advocate groups are becoming more and more powerful with each passing day.


I don't know about you being my parents' age. They're in their 60's. Then again...you did reference $1 a pack. I remember my mom buying a carton for $8. I could still smoke in my local Walmart, bowling allies, eateries, bars, etc. when I started smoking in 1997. I think my local hospital still had an indoor designated smoking area as well. Now you can't even smoke on the property at all.

 

[WCSR]

Didnt want to get too OT but yeah, this too:



Experiencing this first hand, yaaaaaay. Can we say DIY loading?

But anyways back on topic; I doubt that analogs will go away anytime soon (if at all) but if they do it will probably be the cumulative effect of higher taxes, limited local bans, and the ever increasing stigma of smoking/using tobacco.

Even DIY loading supplies will be subjected to such taxes....not to mention hazmat costs. Stock up now...because it's coming down the pipe as we speak.

 

[caffeinator]

I'm just thinking in terms of America, I guess. The analog cigarette is a dying breed here. We've got something most countries don't have...and that is advocate groups that love to spend millions on stop smoking adds that are complete with gruesome images of people who suffered the worst case scenario. Those liberal-soccer-mom stop-smoking advocate groups are becoming more and more powerful with each passing day.

I don't know about you being my parents' age. They're in their 60's. Then again...you did reference $1 a pack. I remember my mom buying a carton for $8. I could still smoke in my local Walmart, bowling allies, eateries, bars, etc. when I started smoking in 1997. I think my local hospital still had an indoor designated smoking area as well. Now you can't even smoke on the property at all.

I agree...it's been de-socialized.

When I started back in the 1980's everyone smoked. They gave packs away on the sidewalk right in front of Dept. Stores as promos...even clove cigs.

And yeah, one convenience store I went to had a big bucket of loose name brand packs for like $1 each.

One huge thing I look forward to is a local Vape Lounge. It's been since 2008 since we could smoke IN any bar or restaurant. Now, I can again. It's just not the same playing pool or having a beer without it.

 

[WCSR]

I agree...it's been de-socialized.

When I started back in the 1980's everyone smoked. They gave packs away on the sidewalk right in front of Dept. Stores as promos...even clove cigs.

And yeah, one convenience store I went to had a big bucket of loose name brand packs for like $1 each.

One huge thing I look forward to is a local Vape Lounge. It's been since 2008 since we could smoke IN any bar or restaurant. Now, I can again. It's just not the same playing pool or having a beer without it.

I'm the same way... I can't have a beer without inhaling some nicotine. It's nice to be able to do that again since I started vaping.