That's because you're in KY, already in your blood.
I had not thought of that, perhaps a reduction in consumption should be my prescription.
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I had not thought of that, perhaps a reduction in consumption should be my prescription.
Gave you a funny instead of disagree since we are probably cousins.I had not thought of that, perhaps a reduction in consumption should be my prescription.
Doctors are not researchers or scientists, no, but they are in a field in which scientific and research advances happen all the time. They are trained in how to read research papers and are mandated to have a certain amount of "continuing education."
Like in any field, some of them are great about being up to date, others not so much. I find continued curiosity and open mindedness concerning one's field as well as "I don't know.... but let me find out..." to be worthwhile things. I appreciate life long learners even MORE in this field than maybe others, although it's just a useful trait to have.
I'd rather spend time reading clinical journals and workbooks than watching or listening to fake news articles.
This is an example of a "bad" doctor. Agreed, I started vaping late to the game (sorta) but my docs all KNOW about it, one even vapes himself! It's not that hard....
Anna
Like in any field, some of them are great about being up to date, others not so much. I find continued curiosity and open mindedness concerning one's field as well as "I don't know.... but let me find out..." to be worthwhile things. I appreciate life long learners even MORE in this field than maybe others, although it's just a useful trait to have.
I'd rather spend time reading clinical journals and workbooks than watching or listening to fake news articles.
This is an example of a "bad" doctor. Agreed, I started vaping late to the game (sorta) but my docs all KNOW about it, one even vapes himself! It's not that hard....
Anna
I managed to my hands on these files. They are can easily be viewed & printed because they are in pdf format. They are good material to show to your doctor. I hope they are of good use.
My doctor was thrilled that I gave up smoking and vape now.
There is a lot of ignorance about vaping in general along with plenty O corruption, intentional misinformation issues along with protection of tobacco from politicians.
A doctor was wrong? this should be no surprise considering they kill more people a year with blowing prescriptions, misdiagnosis, surgical errors etc. than handguns do.
I have said this to people "you are either crooked or incompetent...... neither of which is acceptable".
I feel for the OP of this thread.
There is a lot of ignorance about vaping in general along with plenty O corruption, intentional misinformation issues along with protection of tobacco from politicians.
A doctor was wrong? this should be no surprise considering they kill more people a year with blowing prescriptions, misdiagnosis, surgical errors etc. than handguns do.
I have said this to people "you are either crooked or incompetent...... neither of which is acceptable".
I feel for the OP of this thread.
Like when I have a really serious health issue, I don't want Doc going to the TV/Radio for advice, you feel me?
I also wanted to add... Smoking is the most harmful addiction, health-wise. Highest caused death rate over all addictive substances, if you go lifetime. Surely PCPs run into smokers all the time as they slowly develop lung illnesses, get funneled into cancer care and etc. Any good PCP worth their salt should know some FACTS about vaping by now, and (IMO) not encourage new vapers to stop if they are having success with tobacco cessation that way. It's a FAIRLY HIGH and LARGE risk pool, and I doubt that any doctor is going to go a WHOLE DAY without encountering a smoker, either slightly ill after the flu from pneumonia and/or coming in for a checkup with an oxygen tank.
With the amount of time that vaping has been around and with the amount of studies that are NOT negative coming out, I wouldn't let a doc treat my big toe if they didn't "understand" vaping to an extent. I understand some may still be hesitant about recommending it just because it's sort of "non-medical" in a way Chantix may not be, but there are enough studies being published that if my doc is ignorant about or even skeptical about vaping, well, I'm going to find another doctor.
Even my LEAST beloved PCP at my practice (he is a deaf vet and kind of set in his ways, and it's hard to talk to him because he can't listen and write at the same time, sorta) well, he vapes. He was super low key about it, when I came in one time with some bronchial issue he didn't say much, but at the end of my visit, just plucked his vape from his shirt pocket, waved it at me, and said, "Do this." I wasn't even vaping at the time, but it sure made me appreciate his honesty and kindness.
I still don't seek him out because appointments with him are just exhausting, and he has his own biases (I think most docs do) but I DID appreciate it and it made me like him a lot more. No "Blah blah blah" just a wave of his vape and a "Do this." It did actually impact my decision, as I was like, "Okay, there's someone who has endured a LOT and he was able to switch..." kinda way. I was doing a lot of evaluating vaping and if I could make it work, and the more examples I got of THAT, the more I was like, "Surely even *I* can start vaping again and succeed," kind of thing.
Anna
With the amount of time that vaping has been around and with the amount of studies that are NOT negative coming out, I wouldn't let a doc treat my big toe if they didn't "understand" vaping to an extent. I understand some may still be hesitant about recommending it just because it's sort of "non-medical" in a way Chantix may not be, but there are enough studies being published that if my doc is ignorant about or even skeptical about vaping, well, I'm going to find another doctor.
Even my LEAST beloved PCP at my practice (he is a deaf vet and kind of set in his ways, and it's hard to talk to him because he can't listen and write at the same time, sorta) well, he vapes. He was super low key about it, when I came in one time with some bronchial issue he didn't say much, but at the end of my visit, just plucked his vape from his shirt pocket, waved it at me, and said, "Do this." I wasn't even vaping at the time, but it sure made me appreciate his honesty and kindness.
I still don't seek him out because appointments with him are just exhausting, and he has his own biases (I think most docs do) but I DID appreciate it and it made me like him a lot more. No "Blah blah blah" just a wave of his vape and a "Do this." It did actually impact my decision, as I was like, "Okay, there's someone who has endured a LOT and he was able to switch..." kinda way. I was doing a lot of evaluating vaping and if I could make it work, and the more examples I got of THAT, the more I was like, "Surely even *I* can start vaping again and succeed," kind of thing.
Anna
I still say leaving a doctor ignorant without at least trying to show them the light is the absolute WRONG answer. What if you leave and over the next 3 years that 1 doctor convinces thousands of patients that vaping is worse than smoking due to that ignorance? Now it is election time again and those people "in the interest of public safety" VOTE based on that info. Now multiply that across ALL of the Doctors that vapers abandoned rather than educated. That is how we end up with even more laws against us that could have been prevented, but we were too lazy/scared to even try. We have to be vape proponents everywhere we go, or we will reap what we sow.
I don't disagree. If a doc is against vaping, or misinformed, they will be told. Their reaction to those facts will determine if I return.
If a doc today isn't open/receptive to new ideas though, we are generally not going to get along. I ask questions, do my research, make suggestions, and etc., and if a doc is not going to at least CONSIDER my points, we will not be a good fit.
For example, an NP I knew was all "nice" about smoking until she quit. I saw her once because my main PCP wasn't around and she asked me about my smoking habits and I told her my PCP wasn't as concerned about my smoking for the moment. She got all up in my grill about "he would never say that, ever." Well, I don't like being told I am a liar (even when I *am* but certainly not when I'm NOT) and I went into my tapering/switching to vaping plan and she just continued to tell me that I was a liar and that "her colleague" would never say that. I made her check my chart. She was still like, "There is no option for you moving forward unless you quit cold turkey." Well, we had words about vaping, to the point that I asked her to go get her manager, and that person decided "we" could not see each other again.... LOL, I was fine with that, by that point.
You just can't convince some people that any way other than "theirs" is right. Not really something I want to have to argue with/fend off when I'm ill. If I meet a new doc I cheerfully talk about my vape quit date, and I can tell fairly quickly whether it will be fine, or all downhill from there. Doctors do vary in their responses, and I do my best, but it's not my job to suffer through appointments with the ill-informed (there are just as many of those in the health field than anywhere else) that I am actually paying them money for although I will certainly do my best to politely educate them before I plan on never seeing them again....
Anna
If a doc today isn't open/receptive to new ideas though, we are generally not going to get along. I ask questions, do my research, make suggestions, and etc., and if a doc is not going to at least CONSIDER my points, we will not be a good fit.
For example, an NP I knew was all "nice" about smoking until she quit. I saw her once because my main PCP wasn't around and she asked me about my smoking habits and I told her my PCP wasn't as concerned about my smoking for the moment. She got all up in my grill about "he would never say that, ever." Well, I don't like being told I am a liar (even when I *am* but certainly not when I'm NOT) and I went into my tapering/switching to vaping plan and she just continued to tell me that I was a liar and that "her colleague" would never say that. I made her check my chart. She was still like, "There is no option for you moving forward unless you quit cold turkey." Well, we had words about vaping, to the point that I asked her to go get her manager, and that person decided "we" could not see each other again.... LOL, I was fine with that, by that point.
You just can't convince some people that any way other than "theirs" is right. Not really something I want to have to argue with/fend off when I'm ill. If I meet a new doc I cheerfully talk about my vape quit date, and I can tell fairly quickly whether it will be fine, or all downhill from there. Doctors do vary in their responses, and I do my best, but it's not my job to suffer through appointments with the ill-informed (there are just as many of those in the health field than anywhere else) that I am actually paying them money for although I will certainly do my best to politely educate them before I plan on never seeing them again....
Anna
I don't disagree. If a doc is against vaping, or misinformed, they will be told. Their reaction to those facts will determine if I return.
If a doc today isn't open/receptive to new ideas though, we are generally not going to get along. I ask questions, do my research, make suggestions, and etc., and if a doc is not going to at least CONSIDER my points, we will not be a good fit.
For example, an NP I knew was all "nice" about smoking until she quit. I saw her once because my main PCP wasn't around and she asked me about my smoking habits and I told her my PCP wasn't as concerned about my smoking for the moment. She got all up in my grill about "he would never say that, ever." Well, I don't like being told I am a liar (even when I *am* but certainly not when I'm NOT) and I went into my tapering/switching to vaping plan and she just continued to tell me that I was a liar and that "her colleague" would never say that. I made her check my chart. She was still like, "There is no option for you moving forward unless you quit cold turkey." Well, we had words about vaping, to the point that I asked her to go get her manager, and that person decided "we" could not see each other again.... LOL, I was fine with that, by that point.
You just can't convince some people that any way other than "theirs" is right. Not really something I want to have to argue with/fend off when I'm ill. If I meet a new doc I cheerfully talk about my vape quit date, and I can tell fairly quickly whether it will be fine, or all downhill from there. Doctors do vary in their responses, and I do my best, but it's not my job to suffer through appointments with the ill-informed (there are just as many of those in the health field than anywhere else) that I am actually paying them money for although I will certainly do my best to politely educate them before I plan on never seeing them again....
Anna
That is all I am saying we have to at least try. I am not saying anyone should bang their head on a brick wall forever. I am just saying don't stop seeing a doctor without trying to point them to actual research, and certainly not without letting them know WHY you will not be seeing them anymore. They are a business and if any business loses a customer and doesn't know why, they can't possibly fix the issue.
I think my NP knew why I wasn't seeing her anymore. LOL. But yes, I agree with you, if you are going to leave a doc, well, let them know why. A lot of them are in group practices, and if there is a set of docs that people don't want to see, well, they're usually the ones who have "emergency" openings, and if telling the receptionist, "Never mind, I'll pay more to go to the urgent care, thanks," well, that will be noted, if enough folks do that over time....
If in a group practice, I'm quite sure it has an effect, the practice owner wants to make money. I'd even imagine said NP went to my real PCP and gave him an earful and he corroborated my story.... He remembers me well (he had extreme trauma about believing I might have throat cancer, I've never gotten referred to an ENT so quickly.) It was literally 10 minutes after that visit that I phoned the ENT receptionist who said, "Yes, your doc thinks you have throat cancer. Okay, where are you?" I started giving my home address, and she was like, "Ah, no, I mean where ARE you RIGHT now..." When I told her, she politely invited me to drive directly to the office and I was seen and scoped within 20 minutes, I guess laryngeal cancer is one that folks don't play around with....
So, given that about half my practitioners are good/great, well, they get my money, but I will politely explain if/why I don't want to see a particular doctor again, and I imagine it may have some sort of cumulative effect but I don't leave docs in the dark about why I don't see them before I don't see them....
Anna
If in a group practice, I'm quite sure it has an effect, the practice owner wants to make money. I'd even imagine said NP went to my real PCP and gave him an earful and he corroborated my story.... He remembers me well (he had extreme trauma about believing I might have throat cancer, I've never gotten referred to an ENT so quickly.) It was literally 10 minutes after that visit that I phoned the ENT receptionist who said, "Yes, your doc thinks you have throat cancer. Okay, where are you?" I started giving my home address, and she was like, "Ah, no, I mean where ARE you RIGHT now..." When I told her, she politely invited me to drive directly to the office and I was seen and scoped within 20 minutes, I guess laryngeal cancer is one that folks don't play around with....
So, given that about half my practitioners are good/great, well, they get my money, but I will politely explain if/why I don't want to see a particular doctor again, and I imagine it may have some sort of cumulative effect but I don't leave docs in the dark about why I don't see them before I don't see them....
Anna
What really got me was the cavalier (uncaring) way Doc just gave out advice, with a wave of her hand and allowed that to occur based on the MEDIA. Its not just about vaping here. Its about a Doctor who is not wise/savvy enough to know that the media basically lies for money and political agendas (to put it in a nutshell). This means she either knows and doesn't care (new Doc please) OR doesn't know and is innocently unaware (new Doc please).
I have to admit though, I was approached by a Doc after having crawled out of a house fire in an emergency room and she asked if I smoked and I told her I vaped. She told me I should quit and I asked her why. She gave the most ignorant simplistic answer about toxins that I was literally shocked; I couldn't believe that she was responding on that level. I began to prepare a proper explanation, clearly showing my disdain but I felt pressured by the fact she was an emergency room Doc and I basically mentioned some quick things and said she should get back to work because I don't want to take up her time.
So I am guilty of not properly defending vaping but at least she knew that someone had a strong and informed counter-opinion, even though we didn't get into the details. Meh.
I have to admit though, I was approached by a Doc after having crawled out of a house fire in an emergency room and she asked if I smoked and I told her I vaped. She told me I should quit and I asked her why. She gave the most ignorant simplistic answer about toxins that I was literally shocked; I couldn't believe that she was responding on that level. I began to prepare a proper explanation, clearly showing my disdain but I felt pressured by the fact she was an emergency room Doc and I basically mentioned some quick things and said she should get back to work because I don't want to take up her time.
So I am guilty of not properly defending vaping but at least she knew that someone had a strong and informed counter-opinion, even though we didn't get into the details. Meh.
I don't think it is as simple as it seems when we say the the phrase "educating a doctor". Doctors went to school for many years to achieve their degrees and became extremely educated in their field. Therefore it's impossible for a doctor to not have some kind of ego. From their point of view, having a patient teach them can be degrading.
Still it is a doctor's responsibility to keep themselves updated & educated on the latest breakthroughs, scientific research & results on e-cigarettes, our example because it's so relevant, being so common amongst their patients nowadays (& non-patients). I'm sure there are people that have doctors who are able to be educated. There are also those patients who have their way with their words and are able to engage a doctor into a nice intelligent conversation about e-cigarettes. I'm not trying to say it's not possible.
I figured I'll compare educating a doctor to educating a smoker as far as the approach is concerned. This is just a general comparison. A smoker smokes and that is their way of life and their business. For someone to come to them and say I have a better way for you and it'll save your life really is out of line in general. Even though it's something that the smoker may need to know, it's not someone else's business really.
So with a doctor, even though he must need to have the correct knowledge (like the smoker needs), still it may not be the right thing to approach the doctor (just like the smoker).
Like I said, I don't think it is as simple as it seems when we say the the phrase "educating a doctor". These are just my thoughts although other peoples opinions may differ.
Still it is a doctor's responsibility to keep themselves updated & educated on the latest breakthroughs, scientific research & results on e-cigarettes, our example because it's so relevant, being so common amongst their patients nowadays (& non-patients). I'm sure there are people that have doctors who are able to be educated. There are also those patients who have their way with their words and are able to engage a doctor into a nice intelligent conversation about e-cigarettes. I'm not trying to say it's not possible.
I figured I'll compare educating a doctor to educating a smoker as far as the approach is concerned. This is just a general comparison. A smoker smokes and that is their way of life and their business. For someone to come to them and say I have a better way for you and it'll save your life really is out of line in general. Even though it's something that the smoker may need to know, it's not someone else's business really.
So with a doctor, even though he must need to have the correct knowledge (like the smoker needs), still it may not be the right thing to approach the doctor (just like the smoker).
Like I said, I don't think it is as simple as it seems when we say the the phrase "educating a doctor". These are just my thoughts although other peoples opinions may differ.
While the two may seem similar at the outset, there are some key differences.
The smoker is addicted and you telling him about a better way makes them face that addiction that most are in denial about in the first place. The doctor on the other hand may have an ego, but if your approach is more "hey did you read the study by so-and-so that concluded vaping is 95% safer than smoking?" rather than "OMGzors you are soooo wrong, you idiot" then they will more than likely be intrigued. So the doctor, if approached right should be way more amenable than a smoker.
More importantly, if you leave a smoker to his vices you condemn only that smoker, if you leave a doctor in ignorance you condemn ALL of his smoking patients.
I don't know if it's just me but I get very intimidated by doctors, unless it's a doctor that I have been seeing for a while. Right now my doctors I see are new. The doctor I was speaking about in my first post is a perfect example. I'm much better with people once I get to know them, not good with the initial chit chat. Even if I would want to try and educate my doctor, I'd have to do a lot of memorization beforehand. Giving the doctor a printout can seem easy but it's usually the doctor giving me printouts. There's nothing stopping the doctor from feeling disrespected and disregarding my printout.
But there are those patients that are more charming and have the charisma and a way with their words. I'm sure they will have more of a fighting chance at educating their doctors.
But there are those patients that are more charming and have the charisma and a way with their words. I'm sure they will have more of a fighting chance at educating their doctors.
Ya good point. I don't have a Doctor. Therefore I don't have a relationship with one to work with as a basis which would make it much easier.
Its not like vaping is an "industry" that can fund social education programs directed at the medical establishment. Have any of the advocacy groups planned or worked on something like that?
I think "big tobacco" has long-term plans to become that industry? Didn't I read somewhere that "vaping names" have been reserved by these corporations?
The more people that convert from analog to digital, the closer we will be to universal change. I approached a smoker and helped him get quality vaping equipment and juice but he went back to analogs anyway. I am surprised because he has a very bad cough and he knows its bad for him.
Why did we all switch? I honestly don't remember because I didn't even realize I was part of a "valuable movement"; I think I probably saw a banner online somewhere. I smoked a pipe and I got a Blu with the idea that it was inexpensive and I could simply mail order juice. I joined a "Blu advocacy" forum and then eventually found this one. I didn't have anyone coaching me, I just liked the idea and I knew I liked nicotine. :shrug:
Its not like vaping is an "industry" that can fund social education programs directed at the medical establishment. Have any of the advocacy groups planned or worked on something like that?
I think "big tobacco" has long-term plans to become that industry? Didn't I read somewhere that "vaping names" have been reserved by these corporations?
The more people that convert from analog to digital, the closer we will be to universal change. I approached a smoker and helped him get quality vaping equipment and juice but he went back to analogs anyway. I am surprised because he has a very bad cough and he knows its bad for him.
Why did we all switch? I honestly don't remember because I didn't even realize I was part of a "valuable movement"; I think I probably saw a banner online somewhere. I smoked a pipe and I got a Blu with the idea that it was inexpensive and I could simply mail order juice. I joined a "Blu advocacy" forum and then eventually found this one. I didn't have anyone coaching me, I just liked the idea and I knew I liked nicotine. :shrug:
Whelp, if a doctor has an ego THAT big, I don't want to be around them. I don't think the letters D.R. before your name necessarily have to have a huge ego. I do find this more prevalent among younger medical staff at times (lack of ego).
My true "genius" docs (I've had several in my life) don't need that ego, they're too busy being incredible. If they learn something new (from anywhere including a patient) they just get a big grin on their face because they learned something NEW.
I will never forget my pdoc listening calmly to my "taper off opiates" plan (some of it was unconventional and potentially dangerous, can't really discuss it but not more dangerous that long term naltrexone therapy). He just listened until I was done, did a bunch of googling, and then gave me a calm, "Okay. That's not going to endanger your health, probably." It was something a LOT more controversial than vaping, is all I will say. Other than, "It worked."
Anna
My true "genius" docs (I've had several in my life) don't need that ego, they're too busy being incredible. If they learn something new (from anywhere including a patient) they just get a big grin on their face because they learned something NEW.
I will never forget my pdoc listening calmly to my "taper off opiates" plan (some of it was unconventional and potentially dangerous, can't really discuss it but not more dangerous that long term naltrexone therapy). He just listened until I was done, did a bunch of googling, and then gave me a calm, "Okay. That's not going to endanger your health, probably." It was something a LOT more controversial than vaping, is all I will say. Other than, "It worked."
Anna
My doctor was happy when I switched from cigarettes to vaping. He still asks me sometimes if I'm still vaping. I say yes and he checks a box on his laptop and goes on to the next thing. When I first told him 8 years ago that I had quit smoking and switched to vaping he let me demonstrate my eGo in his examining room. From that point on he was sold on vaping. He did some research and had some vaping pamphlets printed to go in his waiting room for smokers to read.
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