Does this seem right to you?

[skoony]

@zoiDman
the difference mike is talking about is between "Derivative of" and "Derived from"

not "derived of" and "derived from"

Not saying there IS a difference, but maybe that will clear a little bit up?

derivative of implies you need to use in whole or in part the product or products
made directly from the product.
derived from means you don't have to use anything in whole or in part of the
original product or products made from it.if its made to take the place of
a product or products made from the original product it is derived from
the product or products made from the original product.
there would be no e-cigs if not for the original product tobacco.
i am making myself dizzy now.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

derivative of implies you need to use in whole or in part the product or products
made directly from the product.
derived from means you don't have to use anything in whole or in part of the
original product or products made from it.if its made to take the place of
a product or products made from the original product it is derived from
the product or products made from the original product.
there would be no e-cigs if not for the original product tobacco.
i am making myself dizzy now.
regards
mike

I'm with you Mike.

So now that we are all in Agreement that the FDA has the Power to Regulate Cotton Pads and 18650 batteries.

I wonder what the Regulations for these products will Look Like?

 

[skoony]

That, or we could Push to have the Grandfather Date moved up from 2007 to say 2012. Or maybe even 2014? Oh wait, Cotton and Batteries were sold before 2007. So they can probably apply for Significant Equivalence.

the batteries and cotton if used in cigalikes could apply.
mike

 

[skoony]

I'm with you Mike.

So now that we are all in Agreement that the FDA has the Power to Regulate Cotton Pads and 18650 Batteries.

I wonder what the Regulations for these products will Look Like?

if they did go that far they would have to be specked out in detail.
one thing for sure if it doesn't say it meets FDA regulations for use
in electronic cigarettes,it better not be used in electronic cigarettes.
for sale at least.
mike

 

[zoiDman]

the batteries and cotton if used in cigalikes could apply.
mike

Yeah I'm with you.

So what regulations do you think the FDA put on them?

18+?
Face-2-Face only Sales?
No Internet?
CRP?

How about the Big One. No Cartoon Characters on Packages of Cotton?

 

[caramel]

oil is a product.plastic is a derivative of oil.the plastic bag at the grocery
store is a derivative of plastic,hence a derivative of oil.
a biodegradable plastic bag has no plastic in it. it is not a derivative
of oil,nor a plastic bag. it is however derived from the plastic bag.
it mimics the plastic bag.it takes the place of the plastic. it
was invented to take the place of the plastic bag.did i mention
it has no plastic in it?
regards
mike

But if it looks like a plastic bag it shall be regulated as plastic. As it may re-normalize plastic bags.

 

[stevegmu]

The FDA doesn't have nearly the money or manpower it would take to regulate much more than cigalikes, age restrictions and e-liquid- how it is packaged and sold...

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder if there will be a $600,000 process to get FDA Approved Flavored Cotton.

 

[skoony]

Yeah I'm with you.

So what regulations do you think the FDA put on them?

18+?
Face-2-Face only Sales?
No Internet?
CRP?

How about the Big One. No Cartoon Characters on Packages of Cotton?

what the FDA will or will not do is the $64.00 question.
it will be interesting to see what happens.
i'm hitting the rack now catch ya-all tomorrow.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

what the FDA will or will not do is the $64.00 question.
it will be interesting to see what happens.
i'm hitting the rack now catch ya-all tomorrow.
regards
mike

I agree. I'm burnt also.

Have a Good Night Mike.

 

[Jazzman]

the deeming proposal is not the regulations.
its there proposal outlining the things they will
consider in writing the regulations.
mike

My understanding Mike is it is the proposed deeming regulations, not the proposed deeming proposal. And once the deeming regulations are passed, they are the regulations... and no longer proposed. But if you are correct (and I freely admit I could be wrong about this) it would be much better.

 

[Lessifer]

My understanding Mike is it is the proposed deeming regulations, not the proposed deeming proposal. And once the deeming regulations are passed, they are the regulations... and no longer proposed. But if you are correct (and I freely admit I could be wrong about this) it would be much better.

If I understand it correctly, they released the proposed deeming regulations, and then there was a public comment period. Now they are drafting the regulations which could include changes based on the public comments. Once the regulations are published, Congress has a certain amount of time to review them, and possibly ask for changes, or shoot them down in their entirety, or approve them, or just let the time run out. After that, if they have not been shot down, they become the regulations.

 

[Jazzman]

If I understand it correctly, they released the proposed deeming regulations, and then there was a public comment period. Now they are drafting the regulations which could include changes based on the public comments. Once the regulations are published, Congress has a certain amount of time to review them, and possibly ask for changes, or shoot them down in their entirety, or approve them, or just let the time run out. After that, if they have not been shot down, they become the regulations.

That is how I understand it also Lessifer. Add to that that the FDA has said several times the do not intend to change the proposed deeming regulations from their original (and current) form and we have what the FDA plans to do and what the regulations will be if not challenged, changed, or defeated by Congress. But you are right, there is the possibility that the FDA will amend the proposed regs in some way that makes them more palatable for vapers. I know CASAA has been very active in trying to convince the FDA that at the very least they should consider grandfathering all vaping equipment and liquid that exists before the regulations pass.

 

[AndriaD]

It's a Good Thread. And Lots of Good Related Topics have Come up.

I don't think anyone is Even talking much about Labels much anymore.

Well... it's a morbidly fascinating thread, debating all the many and varied ways our rights may be folded spindled and mutilated, and what, if anything, we might do about it. I actually loathe politics, but when the outcome directly concerns me, I pay attention, tiresome as it may be.

Andria

 

[Rossum]

Oh wait, Cotton and Batteries were sold before 2007. So they can probably apply for Significant Equivalence.

Cotton, sure. But the batteries we use today? Nope. Sure, the 18650 form factor is the same, but the battery internals have changed quite a lot. Evolv seems to understand this which is why the newest DNA requires a 3S battery, meaning it will also run on a standard 12V lead acid battery. Of course those are somewhat heavier and a bit bulky, but hey...

 

[beckdg]

Cotton, sure. But the batteries we use today? Nope. Sure, the 18650 form factor is the same, but the battery internals have changed quite a lot. Evolv seems to understand this which is why the newest DNA requires a 3S battery, meaning it will also run on a standard 12V lead acid battery. Of course those are somewhat heavier and a bit bulky, but hey...

Maybe

Maybe not

I haven't seen the specs on Brandon's newest masterpiece.

But a fully charged 6 cell pb battery falls about squarely between a fully charged 3 cell and a fully charged 4 cell lithium pack.

Tapatyped

 

[skoony]

That is how I understand it also Lessifer. Add to that that the FDA has said several times the do not intend to change the proposed deeming regulations from their original (and current) form and we have what the FDA plans to do and what the regulations will be if not challenged, changed, or defeated by Congress. But you are right, there is the possibility that the FDA will amend the proposed regs in some way that makes them more palatable for vapers. I know CASAA has been very active in trying to convince the FDA that at the very least they should consider grandfathering all vaping equipment and liquid that exists before the regulations pass.

there are no regulations at all yet.
the deeming proposal is is just an outline of what they will consider when
writing the actual regulations.they are writing the regulations right now.
that's my understanding.
step one.the American Family Tobacco act authorizes the FDA to regulate
e-cigs as a tobacco product. thus the act deemed e-cigs as a tobacco product,
not the FDA.
step two.the FDA presents their deeming proposal outlining the frame work
of what they will consider when writing the regulations.just because it says
deeming proposal it is not the document that deemed e-cigs a tobacco product.
see step one.
step three.the comment period.(no comment needed)
step four.write the regulations.
step five.unveil the regulations. after an allotted time period
from 18 months to 2 years depending on sources the regulations become
codified in law barring any congressional objections in whole or part
of the regulations.

regards
mike
addendum:there seems to be some confusion concerning the court case.
the court denied the FDA to regulate e-cigs as a medical device.
however noted there was nothing to bar them from regulating them
as a tobacco product.
this is not an authorization for the FDA to regulate e-cigs as a
tobacco product. the FDA didn't have the authority to do so.
the American Family Tobacco Act gave the FDA the authority.
it is unclear if the FDA could have regulated e-cigs as a tobacco
product without the AFTA.

 

[Jode]

Well... it's a morbidly fascinating thread, debating all the many and varied ways our rights may be folded spindled and mutilated, and what, if anything, we might do about it. I actually loathe politics, but when the outcome directly concerns me, I pay attention, tiresome as it may be.

Andria

It is times like this that I wish my political (government, and law) knowledge was stronger. I have been trying my best to learn a bit more about the details but have to admit that this area has never been my strong point. I try to support the groups and people ( like yourself Andria and many others here) that do have a better handle on it in hopes that they will accomplish what I cannot due to my lack of knowledge. This thread has been fascinating (in a scary way) and I have learned a lot by following it. I may not know the details of how legalese is used, how laws and regulations get set and who gets to set them, but I do recognize an uneven playing field and tricky tactics to divide and conquer. I am hopeful that these scary times pass and leave the vaping world as we know it intact. I hope we come out the other side still standing strong and united. I do not have my head in the sand, but have to remain hopeful. I will continue to do my little part by way of spreading positive knowledge that I have learned here (ECF) and from personal experience. I just wanted to say thank you to all that do have a firm knowledge of (as you put it) what, if anything we may do about it. And it may sound petty to some but I also hope we make it out the other side with the freedom to have creative control over the smaller issues like labeling.

 

[mattiem]

Kinda musing this morning

I was watching an episode of The West Wing last night and it made me think about the fight we are in right now.

The powers that be were going to vote on the passage of a bill that would earmark a few billion dollars for some things for kids. Bill started out at about a billion but was already up to about 6 billion. One man wanted to tack on more for kids with autism. The other powers that be said no, let's put it to a vote now.

He decided to filibuster (get up there and talk 'til the cows come home). Well at the eleventh hour the white house found out that the reason he was so dead set about adding the money is because he himself had an autistic grandchild.

The white house (The President and all his helpers) jumped through all kinds of hoops to help him out. It was one of their own so they made sure he got what he wanted. It didn't matter to them when it was just some random kids out there. It was personal now.

The point I am making with all this blather is: The only way we will get any kind of action from the powers that be is if it effects them personally. If not, then sadly, we may as well be shouting at the wind. That won't stop me from doing all I can do to get their ear but I don't think they will hear me unless they can be convinced that it is in their personal best interest to listen and do something.

 

[KattMamma]

I may not know the details of how legalese is used, how laws and regulations get set and who gets to set them, but I do recognize an uneven playing field and tricky tactics to divide and conquer.

I will continue to do my little part by way of spreading positive knowledge that I have learned

Most of us aren't lawyers, though a few here are obviously very educated on these matters and I am thankful for them!! But if everyone else just took your attitude, we'd be in much better shape!!