Doing The Math

[Antwoord]

I thought I'd take a second to do some quick math on the long term cost benefits of vaping vs smoking. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get my figures right, so any feedback is welcomed.

First I suppose I'll total up the cost of regular smoking. For me I smoke 2 packs a day, and my brand where I live totals about $6.50. 6.50 x 31(days in a month) = $201.50
That's $2372.50 dollars a year.

Lets say for vaping, I use 2 Atomizers a month at 11 dollars a piece. I use 5 ml of liquid a day, (being very conservative). That's 155 ML per month, and lets say the juice runs about .75 cents/ml. That equals about $116.25 dollars a month. And lets say I go through a battery about once every six months. The battery is 25$. 25/6 = $4.16

Atomizers: $22
Batteries: $4.16
Liquid: $116.25

vaping per month = 142.41
I like that number just because it includes 42, and what could be considered it's less powerful 2nd cousin, 41.

Vaping per day = $4.60
Vaping per year = $1674.40

I'm fairly sure that I can get the cost of vaping even lower. If I used just one websites prices for juice, with shipping, and used a 250 ml bottle a month, Liquid per month would come out to only $90. That's with a couple dollars added actually. I'm fairly sure that if I consumed 250ml per month I would be near death.

With Cartomizers, going from just one websites prices, 10 Cartomizers a month comes out to around 50 dollars. So, with the new cost of fluid, taking away the atomizer/month cost, the cost of vaping is:

$90
$4.16
$50

That's $144.16/month, and there's all the health benefits there too! If I've undershot the cost of vaping please let me know.

 

[cskent]

I go through about 2-3 ml of juice a day, an atty about 3 to 4 weeks, and I figure I'll get about 6 months out of a battery. Batt's, 2 @ $22, ~1000ml of juice @ 40c per ml, and 15 atty's @ $8/ea. $44+$400+$120=$564/year. 564/12=$47/month. Throw in 20% for error and extra supplies I haven't counted on and I'm still looking at less than $60/month. These are estimates based on personal use and experience.

The startup costs can be pretty expensive, although not necessarily so. Most of us build up our inventory of juice and spare parts during the first few months, then it's just replacing what we've used. For the price of a carton of cig's can I vape all month. Of course if you gotta have all the latest toys you'll never break even.

 

[Shaman]

Vaping per month = 142.41
I like that number just because it includes 42, and what could be considered it's less powerful 2nd cousin, 41.

It's also a palindrome which makes it even more powerful!

 

[Automaton]

You can get it MUCH lower.

I have atties that are 2 months old and I've never had one die. They all work great. With careful care, atties can last for months. With washing, cartomizers can also last for quite a while. I have a couple that are 3 months old and still doing ok.

You can also find just about any model of atty for less than $11. Considerably less.

You can bring your juice cost down to a buck a day by doing DIY.

You can bring costs down further by doing swaps - this community is great for that. Get rid of the stuff you tried and didn't like and get something you do like instead. You will acquire a stock pile pretty fast, and from there vaping costs practically nothing.

For myself? I've spent around $170 in 3 months of vaping. Total. And my monthly cost just keeps falling, since $100 of that was my big first purchase (kit, spare parts, DIY juice kit, etc).

 

[sam12six]

I don't think it's possible to do the long term math.

I'll put on my Kreskin turban and make a prediction:
In the very near future, the government will either declare nicotine juice contraband or start taxing it to a higher relative level than cigarettes.

If they go the tax route, it's logical to assume the Mikey at the Vapor Hovel (completely fictitious supplier) does not have lawyers to compare with those of Phillip Morris so the taxes could be much higher.

Would you run back to cigarettes if ejuice cost twice as much as cigarettes?

I'd be willing to bet that if a smiling FDA talking head made the rounds, announcing that ecigarettes are the healthy alternative to smoking, there would be a massive influx of new vapers (regardless of the relative costs).

I know people who brag about paying 2 or 3 times the normal price for food that is labeled "free range" or "organic". The health impact difference in these foods is unknown and unknowable. Imagine what these people would be willing to pay if normal food were labeled "death" and the organic were labeled "non death". This is what could happen with cigarettes and PVs.

To this point, I believe PVs have been flying somewhat under the radar. I would be shocked if number crunchers in the government aren't already modeling how much to tax vapers to get the maximum profit.

If you're worried about that happening, stock up on nicotine juice. The nicotine is the bottleneck and the only thing that you can't manufacture yourself. This is the logical component for the government to control if they want to continue sucking the blood out of smokers who choose to become vapers.

1) Tax nicotine juice
2) Steal Underpants
3) ?
4) Profit!!

 

[kick3r]

I'm so excited to start saving money with my new toy. I do have a question for you though... I have read somewhere ( I don't really recall) that people still smoke analogs when they first start vaping. I'm new to all of this so I was wondering if anyone has been through that and is there anyway to prevent this from happening?

Thanks

 

[markfm]

Continuing to smoke, especially right at first, seems common, but people often cut way down even at first.

My first kit didn't work well for me, the mechanics of using it and the liquid strength (too low). Still, I dropped pretty much from full pack a day down to maybe 6 - 7 a day.

My second kit, plus higher mg liquid, did the trick. I smoked one last pack the first week, only 3 a day. I purposely left the cigs in the car, so that when I work up the e-cig was easier to get to. When that pack was done I stopped smoking, just vaped.

Key things for me -- an e-cig that worked for me, high enough mg, quickly picked up a third battery and a PT for the car, so I was confident I wouldn't lack power.

Vaping cost using a KR808D-1 and cartos I figure at max $2.50/day, including battery and charger replacement costs, with it being a short putt to drop it to the $1.50 area if I tried. Since I'm conditioned to the outrageously high NY cig prices, I don't sweat it, use the savings to pick up some widgets and be active in PIF.

 

[schaedj]

Everyone's experience is different. I quit completely, then started again when I ran out of supplies, then made a huge stocking order and quit again. I still smoke one cigarette a day, on my way to work, not sure why, it's just something I'm doing, and it doesn't bother me.
A friend of mine started at the same time, then went back to smoking (before me), then quit smoking and vaping altogether.
There plenty of stories on here about people that threw out the analogs and never looked back. Primarily, you want to make sure you have plenty of supplies and keep your batteries charged, and then make a decision to quit. If you do that, you should have no problem stopping smoking completely. The e-cigs really do work.
From a cost perspective, I started out low cost (china supplies), then went bulk with my stocking order, then started having fun with mods. Since I've gotten my GGTS and a stock of LR atties and 18650 batteries, I haven't needed to buy anything else. I'm still working off my stocking order, and I have a couple of liters of 48% nic in the fridge for DIY. My total spend over the past few months was $50. (I bought a GG passthrough on the classifieds). My total spend since I started two years ago is an ugly number. (the 42 would belong further to the front )

 

[sam12six]

I'm so excited to start saving money with my new toy. I do have a question for you though... I have read somewhere ( I don't really recall) that people still smoke analogs when they first start vaping. I'm new to all of this so I was wondering if anyone has been through that and is there anyway to prevent this from happening?

Thanks

The only 2 ways to stop smoking analogs are to either force yourself or to get so much satisfaction from vaping that you have no desire to smoke.

Unfortunately, nobody can tell you how to achieve the latter. Nicotine strength, PV voltage, atty resistance, juice flavor - all these things are variable and subjective. What I find to be the perfect throat hit, you might find feels like inhaling acid fumes. Your perfect throat hit might feel like inhaling warm air to me.

Take a stand and decide that (perfect replacement or not) vaping is your new habit, smoking is out - period. The other option is to experiment until you find what works... that could be the first thing you try or you could end up one of those people with every mod and juice flavor listed in your sig.

 

[Xanax]

2 atomizers a month? I've got a ton of 5 month old and still kickin atomizers, with my newest ones 3 months old. I guess that would bring my cost per year down really far.

 

[YKruss]

Spent $1300 in 17 months which equals to $76 a month.

Can leave in a cave for two years without bying any e-cig related supply.

And that will bring the monthly cost to $1300/(17 + 24)= $31.7, but that will never happened with all new technology coming to the e-cig market.

 

[CloudBurst]

I decided a long time ago that it's best to just enjoy my smoke free life and not count the money spent! LOL I look at it as a hobby and I'd spend money on any others hobby. I love it!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[markfm]

Spent $1300 in 17 months which equals to $76 a month.

Can leave in a cave for two years without bying any e-cig related supply.

And that will bring the monthly cost to $1300/(17 + 24)= $31.7, but that will never happened with all new technology coming to the e-cig market.

Cool -- someone else hits my $2.50/day estimated cost

 

[Antwoord]

Lol, yeah those were worst case scenario/crash test dummy numbers. I don't think there is any way I'd ever use 5 ml a day, but for someone who maybe smokes quite a bit I thought why not use a higher number for most things.

I definitely have thought about the government stepping in and trying to tax Nicotine juice itself. The reasons for the taxation of analogs were the medical costs associated with their use. I'm not sure what kind of power the average U.S. voter really has anymore, but I would hope that they couldn't raise taxes on it without proving severe health risks, and medical costs stemming from the use of Nicotine juice. To add to that, so many people are against the big tobacco companies that perhaps they wont play a role in jacking up the prices. With storefront sales, or sales similar to that of Nicorette which is cheaper than smoking, I hope prices stay relatively cheap. If there is a higher tax on nicotine itself it seems like it would have to raise the price of the gums, patches, etc, and hopefully people just wont stand for that.

What prompted me to start looking at the numbers was seeing another thread about whether or not it is cheaper to use e-cigarettes or analogs. A lot of people were saying that it was not cheaper actually, so I thought I'd play around with some numbers just for myself/fun.

 

[cskent]

2 atomizers a month? I've got a ton of 5 month old and still kickin atomizers, with my newest ones 3 months old. I guess that would bring my cost per year down really far.

That's the worst I've had and they weren't dead, just not producing vapor as well as I wanted anymore. I throw them in a box to be revived when I get around to messing with them. I was trying to be conservative on my cost estimate.

 

[tresrottn]

I did start vaping to combat my need for ciggies. I thought I would still smoke...just not as much. It just happened to turn out that when I took up vaping that the pack of ciggies I bought right prior to the ecig coming in was the last pack I bought, I just never had a desire to pick up another ciggie.

My costs are insanely lower, including initial investment. I still have supplies from the first purchase 80 days ago, as well as the cartomizers. I am only now making the switch to the new CE2 Carts, and I feel those will even last tons longer. For the record, I set out an initial budget of 2 cartons of ciggies ($110) and came in with about $40 to spare.

I admit, I had a blast shopping for new flavors at perfumers apprentice yesterday, simply because the other folks who vape at work with me got so turned on to my mixes that they are now paying me for juice! With a couple of choice investments at extremevaping, I am going to have plenty of juice to last me many months, along with the 5 other users I supply. Their monies will be a nice little bump in the money I save in the end.

Looking long term, vaping is going to always undercut the cost of ciggies if you factor in the other "accouterments" to smoking. The extra medications for when you get sick (cause of the depressed immune system) the constant washing and replacing of clothes (cause of the stench and the burn holes) all the smoking related illnesses (cancer, emphysema, et all) the stress of "mommy/daddy/aunt/uncle, when are you gonna quit smoking?" goes away (stress kills!) fewer runs to the doctor/ER (YAY!) and insurance costs that go up when you admit you are a smoker in your house or apartment......the list goes on.

You can see I have thought about this!

 

[sam12six]

Unfortunately, getting public support for a given issue is all about spin doctoring.

People who hate big tobacco could easily believe that PVs and nic juice are big tobacco's plan to keep killing people from a different direction.

The difference between vaping and nicorette or whatever is that people think of vaping as flame-free smoking (and maybe they should). Show your PV to an anti-smoker and see what they think - a hundred bucks says they'll tell you that you're still smoking and deluding yourself into believing you aren't. Ask the average "man on the street" what the difference is between electronic cigarettes and regular cigarettes. I'd bet 90+% of the time the answer would be, "Uhhhhhhh, electricity?"

It's all about perception. As long as using a PV looks like smoking, to the world at large, it is smoking. This perception might even be right. Don't get me wrong, I'm vaping as I type this and I'm here because I believe it is a healthier option than cigarettes. That said, while I stay out of such discussions, I tend to chuckle at the naive outrage people express when they find out that vaping is being treated like smoking.

That's like being outraged that you were arrested for pulling a cap gun on a bank teller. Sure it's not the real thing, but it is purposely designed to resemble the real thing. That being the case, I don't see why anyone is surprised to find people will lump it in the same category as the real thing.

As far as government taxation, the PV industry is between a rock and a rock.

As a nicotine delivery system, the PV industry won't be allowed to use the most effective small-scale advertising methods. Only big companies could afford to get the word out. All the shoestring startups, the great suppliers we have that are actually a couple working from home will pretty much die off. Additionally, expensive, draconian certification requirements could also kill the small ejuice supplier.

As a quit smoking system, the PV industry would be forced to jump through whatever hoops the FDA chose to force on them. The lab work and study groups or whatever would be beyond the budget of a very small business. All the shoestring startups, the great suppliers we have that are actually a couple working from home will pretty much die off.

Right now, the PV industry is pretty much in limbo so the tax issue won't come to a head until a decision is made in terms of whether PVs are nicotine delivery devices or smoking cessation aids (legally speaking).

Whatever religion you follow, anyone with half a brain should have complete faith that the government is not going to let a bunch of 2nd class citizens walk casually away from their sin tax (while still sinning) after investing a couple of decades and a ton of money demonizing them into 2nd class citizens to begin with.

 

[WomanOfHeart]

Once I return the GreenSmoke kits and get some of my money back, I'll have spent only a couple hundred dollars to get started. That's for both me and my boyfriend. Considering what we spent on analogs, it's a bargain because our analog costs were close to $400/month.

 

[Zurd]

I started vaping 211 days ago (about 7 months), spent 844.66$, today I'm at exactly 4$ per day. So that's 120$ per month or 1460$ a year. It drops 2 cents per day, so tomorrow I'll be at 3.98$ a day

 

[Antwoord]

Unfortunately, getting public support for a given issue is all about spin doctoring.

People who hate big tobacco could easily believe that PVs and nic juice are big tobacco's plan to keep killing people from a different direction.

The difference between vaping and nicorette or whatever is that people think of vaping as flame-free smoking (and maybe they should). Show your PV to an anti-smoker and see what they think - a hundred bucks says they'll tell you that you're still smoking and deluding yourself into believing you aren't. Ask the average "man on the street" what the difference is between electronic cigarettes and regular cigarettes. I'd bet 90+% of the time the answer would be, "Uhhhhhhh, electricity?"

It's all about perception. As long as using a PV looks like smoking, to the world at large, it is smoking. This perception might even be right. Don't get me wrong, I'm vaping as I type this and I'm here because I believe it is a healthier option than cigarettes. That said, while I stay out of such discussions, I tend to chuckle at the naive outrage people express when they find out that vaping is being treated like smoking.

That's like being outraged that you were arrested for pulling a cap gun on a bank teller. Sure it's not the real thing, but it is purposely designed to resemble the real thing. That being the case, I don't see why anyone is surprised to find people will lump it in the same category as the real thing.

As far as government taxation, the PV industry is between a rock and a rock.

As a nicotine delivery system, the PV industry won't be allowed to use the most effective small-scale advertising methods. Only big companies could afford to get the word out. All the shoestring startups, the great suppliers we have that are actually a couple working from home will pretty much die off. Additionally, expensive, draconian certification requirements could also kill the small ejuice supplier.

As a quit smoking system, the PV industry would be forced to jump through whatever hoops the FDA chose to force on them. The lab work and study groups or whatever would be beyond the budget of a very small business. All the shoestring startups, the great suppliers we have that are actually a couple working from home will pretty much die off.

Right now, the PV industry is pretty much in limbo so the tax issue won't come to a head until a decision is made in terms of whether PVs are nicotine delivery devices or smoking cessation aids (legally speaking).

Whatever religion you follow, anyone with half a brain should have complete faith that the government is not going to let a bunch of 2nd class citizens walk casually away from their sin tax (while still sinning) after investing a couple of decades and a ton of money demonizing them into 2nd class citizens to begin with.

I agree with most of what you have said actually. I would like to know how e-cigs are viewed in Europe or the U.K. by the public. I lived in Italy from 96 to 2000, and smoking was tolerated there quite well. Italian's and most of Europe had a higher life expectancy as well even then. I think that smoking in general is not the biggest health concern, and if it is possible for people to get the word, and facts out...everyday people, and popularize it more then we can change the perception.

For me I think it is the best alternative to smoking, and even with my Blu kit I felt the need to smoke less. I've tried gum, lozenges, yoga, etc., but this works. As vaping becomes more popular you might see increases in prices anyway. As demand goes up, prices go up it's just the way it works.

If there is a significant increase in the variety of technologies people prefer to use I can see the market being divided in a way that accommodates two different types of e-cig users. One group who prefer Ultra-Minis, who don't need a lot of nicotine delivery, and choose convenience and appearance over any other characteristic. Those are the people I think Big Tobacco would be able to market to. That leaves a whole other section of the market for people who are a bit more serious about vaping, and I think those are the people that the Mom and Pop suppliers can thrive on.

Laziness is a definite factor with this kind of issue. You can see the same thing with people that roll their own cigarettes, as opposed to those who buy only name brand. People that will make their own juice, go out and find their niche website or supplier will still be there. You can take another example from Websites that sell outdated cessation products. There are millions of people who have no idea that they can get 150 pieces of Nicorette for $15.

The Draconian regulations are something to worry about, but I can only imagine that it is possible to regulate such things as storage temperatures, levels of nicotine, foreign substances(insect droppings), standard safety equipment/certifications, etc.

I'm being optimistic at the moment because I pretty much have to be. I want to quit smoking really bad lol. Perhaps there will be some changes in how e-cigarettes are marketed and their appearance as well, like with Camel. That does not bother me, I don't mind if people even perceive me as needing some kind of inhaler.

I think that right now it's harder to get sensationalism out of our culture, so I think it's a good thing to start thinking about how people like you and me can change the perception of e-cigs from being something dirty little heathen smokers do to keep ruining the divine temples that they were blessed with, into people that are making a beneficial, if not necessary choice about their health while not corrupting the youth so that this big machine can keep on rollin, and we will all live and function at maximum capacity together for eternity.

You know, it's possible that corporatism may lend a hand. They like their dead peasants insurance pay offs ~shrug~.