Donate to Dr Farsalinos' new study

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Kent C

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Where I differ from Kent is I wouldn't like to see people prosecuted to full extent of law unless it was proven to be malicious.

I know the difference of 'intent' in law and how there's 'degrees' and felonies and misdemeanors. Those vendors that claim 'diacetyl free' without testing or without proof from their flavor suppliers are misleading their customers. And while not 'malicious', it is a type of fraud or false advertising (same thing actually). And I would make a distinction between those who just passed on non verified info (as irresponsible) vs. those who happened to know differently but passed it on anyway (intent to mislead).
 

Kent C

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sonicdsl: I'm also somewhat with classwife here in that I do not want anything in the liquid that doesn't need to be in there, if that's avoidable. But the added risk is minimal, from what I can tell, and it should be my decision, as an individual to make that determination. So again, it's information, and what I choose to do with it.

I agree with the bold :)

More information is needed, I think, before any real plan of action can be determined. Cost is probably the foremost consideration, but I agree with Dr Farsalinos in that it should be borne on the flavoring manufacturers, since that is where this is originating.

Here, as far as 'shoulds' go - it should be the vendor's choice. IF they make the DA-free claim, then they have to back it up. If they don't, they will either suffer the consequences of not enduring DA-free flavors or the testing that requires making such a claim. Again, some flavor vendors are in the business for food products only and Diacetyl according the FDA for ingesting is GRAS.

I also personally think that if a liquid supplier makes a claim about D&A free, that they should either have their own testing, or divulge the flavoring manufacturer so we know if they're being truthful.

Ultimately I just want to know so I can make that decision for myself, and share it with others if it's a concern.

I'm with you on that. Most of my 19K posts were sharing my experience. That and the funy pics thread gifs :laugh:
 

Kent C

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One of the many things I can say about ECF versus the five or six other vaping forums I am on: this conversation just could not and would not be this thoughtful elsewhere (at least from what I've seen). But -- and here is something that is nagging at me -- one thing that ECF has in spades is older well-established vapers. Not saying we don't have a constant influx of new and younger vapers popping up, but this forum is held down by the experienced -- and the overwhelming majority of that experience is made up of former/current smokers....

I agree with most of this but I'd hesitate to assert that "there is a growing segment of them that were not previously smokers (proportionately more now than I think in previous years). Never smoked. Nope. And never would!" without before and after comparisons. For one, it plays into some of the ANTZ views and the only studies I've seen that have addressed this say that in a certain age group, forget which but the younger years that NONE were 'never smoked' and the older age group there was 1%.

Ah... here it is. (see the graph)

http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_715.pdf

If you have other information I'd be happy to look at it.
 

Mr.Mann

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I agree with most of this but I'd hesitate to assert that "there is a growing segment of them that were not previously smokers (proportionately more now than I think in previous years). Never smoked. Nope. And never would!" without before and after comparisons. For one, it plays into some of the ANTZ views and the only studies I've seen that have addressed this say that in a certain age group, forget which but the younger years that NONE were 'never smoked' and the older age group there was 1%.

Ah... here it is. (see the graph)

http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_715.pdf

If you have other information I'd be happy to look at it.

Nope. No links or anything. Just me.

Being on enough forums, meeting vapers and visiting vape shops tells me a lot. Not only can I tell what gear will be "hot" within a week and sold out in day (from all the way across the globe), I can tell you that more vapers I meet (online and on forums), the more I meet vapers that never smoked -- and this could be attributed to a lot of things, but that's something I won't speculate on (though I have my ideas). And naive or not, there was time when this was something I never thought existed as I rarely met a vaper that wasn't a previous smoker (nor could I understand the pull of vaping to a non-smoker -- but that was back in the carto days).

So, my bad for not making it clear that my opinion was not based on a study or something like that -- I've never seen a study about the growing number of people using mechanical mods, but I can tell you that a growing number of people use them. That is based on the same experiences -- forums, vape shops and meeting vapers. ANTZ views will be what they are -- I can't be afraid to speak my truth, but I may need to make sure that it's understood that I am not basing my notions on the community from anything other than being in it. Yes, whether my truth is the truth or not, my truth is not currently verifiable.
 
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Kent C

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Nope. No links or anything. Just me.

Being on enough forums, meeting vapers and visiting vape shops tells me a lot. Not only can I tell what gear will be "hot" within a week and sold out in day (from all the way across the globe), I can tell you that more vapers I meet (online and on forums), the more I meet vapers that never smoked -- and this could be attributed to a lot of things, but that's something I won't speculate on (though I have my ideas). And naive or not, there was time when this was something I never thought existed as I rarely met a vaper that wasn't a previous smoker (nor could I understand the pull of vaping to a non-smoker -- but that was back in the carto days).

So, my bad for not making it clear that my opinion was not based on a study or something like that -- I've never seen a study about the growing number of people using mechanical mods, but I can tell you that a growing number of people use them. That is based on the same experiences -- forums, vape shops and meeting vapers. ANTZ views will be what they are -- I can't be afraid to speak my truth, but I may need to make sure that it's understood that I am not basing my notions on the community from anything other than being in it. Yes, whether my truth is the truth or not, my truth is not currently verifiable.

Ok. Just wondered if I missed a study and I believe you about your own experience. In the earlier days here, Mods used to kick people off who said they never smoked and wanted to vape. Many would come down on them in threads too - not me, as you might know by now. lol.

I think some bodies, maybe not all, need nicotine, and some ought to have some lol... for focus.
 

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In my more-recent dealings with the "newbie" community (yes, they are basically their own community -- and it's quite large), there is a growing segment of them that were not previously smokers (proportionately more now than I think in previous years). Never smoked. Nope. And never would! So what does that mean? Vaping is for anyone (18 and up) that wants to do so. Too many of us ignore this and always fall back on a harm-reduction type stance when, for many in our community now, there was never the initial "harm" to begin with. Nothing being reduced! Sure, obviously vaping should be considered harm-reduction to those that smoked -- it is for me and it saved me from a lot more -- but it's not like you need proof of past history to partake in vaping (regardless of what I think). To constantly make the comparisons to cigarettes that are "bad", therefore, as long as vaping is less than that it's okay -- well, that's not okay as an argument, at least when the common wisdom is that vaping's basically a fun and "safe" activity of "water vapor" and innocuous flavors.

Very good point. And one I've brought up elsewhere on ECF. But here in this context, counters what I was saying before when asking, "if you didn't mind it in smoking, how could you mind it in vaping?" (not even quoting myself accurately, but you get the gist)

If there are ways to reduce the potential harm of vaping -- not just vaping reducing the harm of smoking by offering an alternative -- we ought to have some kind of go at it from within the community for those that want it. Not obligatorily, but voluntarily. Options and information. Take it or leave it. Just having the options of no flavoring/flavoring or nicotine/no nicotine is not going to be enough much longer considering the door is so wide open. Getting better as a market and community does not only include developing more tasty flavors, fancier gear and bigger-cloud producing devices, but having some impetus to develop liquids and gear devoid of things that are, to some consumers, more questionable than necessary. For that we will need science. I don't ever want to see a situation where we are forced to vape our vegetables (LOL) if we want to vape, but it would be great if those that were concerned about such things knew exactly where to go.

If it could stay strictly as an option for consumers, I'd be all for this being in hands of science. But as testing requires funds, and fund providers have own (various) agendas, I just think it will be spun as diacetyl (of any amount) equals harm. Do you want to vape something that is harmful? No, then help us get rid of the vendors in the eCig market who are harming people and insisting on using diacetyl in their flavorings.
 

Mr.Mann

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Very good point. And one I've brought up elsewhere on ECF. But here in this context, counters what I was saying before when asking, "if you didn't mind it in smoking, how could you mind it in vaping?" (not even quoting myself accurately, but you get the gist)



If it could stay strictly as an option for consumers, I'd be all for this being in hands of science. But as testing requires funds, and fund providers have own (various) agendas, I just think it will be spun as diacetyl (of any amount) equals harm. Do you want to vape something that is harmful? No, then help us get rid of the vendors in the eCig market who are harming people and insisting on using diacetyl in their flavorings.

I "hear" you, but (coming from my experiences again) there are so many vapers out there that couldn't give two thoughts to any of this (now or after test results prove whatever) that I just doubt that it will amount to much more than a viable option for those that want the choice to not have it in their liquid. I've read posts (and met one person -- so not a lot of physical contact) with vapers that defended and were happy to vape Cuttwood Unicorn Milk (the white stuff) after that whole debacle. I think some people are so indifferent toward the contents of what they vape (as long as it tastes good) that I can see FB groups/threads immediately popping up (in addition to the ones like those currently out there) for people that'll say "you'll take my diacetyl from my cold, dead hands!" I got no problem with them and think they will go all in with their vendors who continue to sell it. Plus, once it becomes legitimately "bad," it will also likely become rebellious. "Yeah, I vape diacetyl -- so what?!" It'll be selling like hotcakes -- with extra butter. LOL
 
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Oliver

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Why is that nagging at me? In my more-recent dealings with the "newbie" community (yes, they are basically their own community -- and it's quite large), there is a growing segment of them that were not previously smokers (proportionately more now than I think in previous years). Never smoked. Nope. And never would! So what does that mean? Vaping is for anyone (18 and up) that wants to do so. Too many of us ignore this and always fall back on a harm-reduction type stance when, for many in our community now, there was never the initial "harm" to begin with. Nothing being reduced! Sure, obviously vaping should be considered harm-reduction to those that smoked -- it is for me and it saved me from a lot more -- but it's not like you need proof of past history to partake in vaping (regardless of what I think). To constantly make the comparisons to cigarettes that are "bad", therefore, as long as vaping is less than that it's okay -- well, that's not okay as an argument, at least when the common wisdom is that vaping's basically a fun and "safe" activity of "water vapor" and innocuous flavors.

On the surface, if what you say is correct, this would seem quite troubling. However, true understanding of the implications requires a little counterfactual thinking: to wit, what proportion of these "never smoking" vapers would, without access to vaping products, have otherwise started smoking? I don't credit the "never would" very much, since I remember saying the same around a week before I started smoking (admittedly at age 14).

Much is made of the reduction in adolescent smoking in the developed world, but what is rarely addressed is that smoking initiation has moved upwards in age. Carl Phillips makes a very interesting point, in that smoking is often treated as if there's a "sensitive period" for smoking in adolescence which if avoided means an individual is no longer "at risk" from smoking initiation, whereas the data shows a different story - more smokers now initiate at or after the age of majority than under. My view is that there's some truth in this notion of a sensitive period insofar as the developing brain probably is more likely to lead to greater dependence as a function of earlier exposure to nicotine.

Regardless, it is smoking which is strongly associated with life-time use (and early mortality). The addictive potential of e-cigs remains in question, and will likely not be ascertained for many years. Personally, on this question, I favor the (equivocal) prediction of Karl Fagerstrom, that e-cigs are likely to be dependence creating, but not as much as smoking.

So, what are the factors affecting non-smoking vaping initiators. What predicts the initiation of smoking in all age groups, and are the same predictors true of vaping? The obvious predictors are personality factors and social pressures (and those two are not independent, in any case, for obvious reasons). So, the social factors we might worry about are the expanding popularity of vaping, and the theme that vaping is safe, in absolute terms. The personality factors are somewhat immaleable and so exposure to vaping will be a function of social environment.

Simple health economics says that if vaping is 100th as dangerous as smoking, you would need 100 new lifelong smokers (that otherwise would not have smoked) per new vaper for there to be a net negative public health impact. Of course, the population level thinking masks the rights of the individual to have good and accurate information about what it is they are being exposed to or at least, if not masks, doesn't address it.

Again, this brings us back to regulatory pressures. For one, the very fact that vaping is safer in relative terms and its absolute safety is unknown is something vendors are not allowed to discuss, and will be specifically addressed under PACT by the MRTP clauses (i.e. manufacturers will have to gain an MRTP license to state what is obviously true, that vaping is less dangerous than smoking). The rest will be "taken care of" by the social environment - whatever the community(s) decide is true of vaping, and which ever narrative ends up dominating. This is a ludicrous state of affairs and obviously runs counter to the aims of tobacco control/public health.


If there are ways to reduce the potential harm of vaping -- not just vaping reducing the harm of smoking by offering an alternative -- we ought to have some kind of go at it from within the community for those that want it. Not obligatorily, but voluntarily. Options and information. Take it or leave it. Just having the options of no flavoring/flavoring or nicotine/no nicotine is not going to be enough much longer considering the door is so wide open. Getting better as a market and community does not only include developing more tasty flavors, fancier gear and bigger-cloud producing devices, but having some impetus to develop liquids and gear devoid of things that are, to some consumers, more questionable than necessary. For that we will need science. I don't ever want to see a situation where we are forced to vape our vegetables (LOL) if we want to vape, but it would be great if those that were concerned about such things knew exactly where to go.

This is something I want to address specifically on vaping.com (our new sister site to ECF) - I want to ensure that the latest, most accurate information can be gained easily by anyone interested in vaping. One of my big concerns is actually less that non-smokers are initiating vaping, but that smokers are being put off trying vaping products because of misinformation about e-cigs in the press and from the medical community.
 
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Mr.Mann

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SmokeyJoe, that was a wonderful read. I would like to add that you are right, of course, regarding the "never would" part -- I surely said the same thing before I smoked. And as you pointed out, we can't now factor out of the equation access to vaping products (and hopefully we never will). Honestly, and as much as I can't believe I am going to say this, I wish vaping was around when I started smoking because I would have loved the option to vape instead of smoke -- if I started smoking, I guess I could've just as easily been curious about vaping. And having the option of vaping, even without having engaged in the greater harm, would still be choosing a reduced-harm activity. I could've not only had a (greatly) reduced-harm activity, but I could've possible avoided the greater-harm to begin with.

Hmmm...I never thought about it like that.
 
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Kent C

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On the surface, if what you say is correct, this would seem quite troubling. However, true understanding of the implications requires a little counterfactual thinking: to wit, what proportion of these "never smoking" vapers would, without access to vaping products, have otherwise started smoking? I don't credit the "never would" very much, since I remember saying the same around a week before I started smoking (admittedly at age 14).

This is wise. (bold).... And I know of no way, no method, no study, to be able to tell that with any degree of certainty - hence I have the same conclusion - give it no credit, (and don't find it 'troubling'), but it should be noted :)
 

Jman8

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So, what are the factors affecting non-smoking vaping initiators. What predicts the initiation of smoking in all age groups, and are the same predictors true of vaping? The obvious predictors are personality factors and social pressures (and those two are not independent, in any case, for obvious reasons). So, the social factors we might worry about are the expanding popularity of vaping, and the theme that vaping is safe, in absolute terms. The personality factors are somewhat immaleable and so exposure to vaping will be a function of social environment.

To me, an obvious predictor is both the increasing popularity (coolness factor) and the increasing desire to restrict/ban vaping (making it even more cool/rebellious). It is challenging to find 'right balance' between those two, especially if the adult population is not seeking that (and acting childish in that process).

But I really think an obvious factor is if it is banned, kids will want to do it more, or among each other treat it as 'now this is really cool.' I would think within a year, the entire planet would have some sort of law (locally or nationally) that forbids anyone under 18 from obtaining eCig products. Currently seems to me that this is the norm, and that kids already are tuned into underground market (even more coolness factor at work).

Again, this brings us back to regulatory pressures. For one, the very fact that vaping is safer in relative terms and its absolute safety is unknown is something vendors are not allowed to discuss, and will be specifically addressed under PACT by the MRTP clauses (i.e. manufacturers will have to gain an MRTP license to state what is obviously true, that vaping is less dangerous than smoking). The rest will be "taken care of" by the social environment - whatever the community(s) decide is true of vaping, and which ever narrative ends up dominating. This is a ludicrous state of affairs and obviously runs counter to the aims of tobacco control/public health.

Due to what this thread has said, via the study, I have tough time in other threads (and vaping forums) speaking to 'absolute safety' or 'relative harmlessness' of vaping. Used to be easy to cite the 4 ingredients and rationalize that vaping can't be all that harmful and is closer to harmless. Yet, the diacetyl in 70% of existing (sweet) flavors, now means to me that this ought to be additional ingredient that is cited and oh by the way, vaping is now kinda sorta harmful (I heard you can get popcorn lung from vaping... type claims).

And then I just think the timing here stinks. Perhaps it is great timing for this and it'll play out that way. But if neutral / independent scientist (the kind that seems like is on our side, or at least not overtly against us) is finding something harmful (avoidable risk, 0% of the ingredient is reasonable objective), then I feel science just served up, on a silver platter, the need to regulate this industry. And FDA already was that regulator here in the US, which often seems to me to be how the rest of the world is likely to consider 'vaping safety.'

Yet, some of what we vapers may communicate in comments to FDA could be seen as lacking information on the 'diacetyl known issue.' Again, citing 4 ingredients and notions of 'science hasn't found anything harmful to date.' That now would be misleading or inaccurate. Thus, all those comments appear misguided.


This is something I want to address specifically on vaping.com (our new sister site to ECF) - I want to ensure that the latest, most accurate information can be gained easily by anyone interested in vaping. One of my big concerns is actually less that non-smokers are initiating vaping, but that smokers are being put off trying vaping products because of misinformation about e-cigs in the press and from the medical community.

And I think that the diacetyl issue will make it more challenging for smokers wanting to make the switch, unless the issue is kept in proper perspective. Or my version of "proper" perspective. I am concerned that this issue will work against, be blown out of proportion, and have vaping show up as 'just like smoking' - people doing it despite known harm / risk existing.
 

Kent C

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These things are going to show up. This is just the first, or maybe the second. We are doing real science here, not propaganda. If vaping is only 100 times safer than smoking, then there will be risks. I for one want to find out what those are.

I, for one, would encourage anyone who is concerned to donate to the study or further studies.
 

Racehorse

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As for my own comments to Dr. F. regarding his own profit. I don't consider profit a bad thing but from his comments he seems to.

I read nothing whatsoever that would imply this. :confused:

Here is what Dr. F said:
First of all, why is it a problem that vendors should test their products? I have not seen a single industry not testing their products, why should the e-cigarette industry be the first one? Don't you think that some of the billion-dollars of this industry should go to testing? <snip> E-cigarette devices and liquids cost money to consumers and provide profits to the vendors. Some of them should be invested on research and testing.

Sounds like an individual with ethical standards ---- merely observing that most industry/corporations customarily have some level of ethical standards and responsibility to their consumers (in addition to raking in billions of $$ from them. )
 

RosaJ

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Dr. Farsalinos and his colleagues did many of the early studies on their own time and without compensation. I don't know if that is the case now, but I personally don't expect anyone, much less a scientist to do these studies for free. There are expenses involved in the studies such as labs, lab equipment, products, etc., that someone has donated.

I don't know of any major grant money available for the studies on ecigs, contrary to the hundreds of thousands that are paid out to Glantz and his ilk.

So lets put things in perspective and not shoot ourselves in the foot by pointing fingers without having an iota of proof.

This post isn't aimed at any one person, but I've noticed lately derogatory comments regarding these studies when it comes to compensation. I've seen posts that say that the studies were paid by Big Vape companies. I'm one of the people that donated to this study, and I'm a soon to be 66 year old who's retired. Trust me, I'm not BV. Come on now, lets get real, please!
 

Kent C

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I read nothing whatsoever that would imply this. :confused:

Here is what Dr. F said:


Sounds like an individual with ethical standards ---- merely observing that most industry/corporations customarily have some level of ethical standards and responsibility to their consumers (in addition to raking in billions of $$ from them. )

When someone states that individual companies have a responsibility BECAUSE the industry as a whole makes billions, they're making a category error that doesn't relate the individual economics of a company to that of the industry. If he wants to make the case then he should state something along the lines that after costs a certain company has so much excess that they, IF they are going to make DA-free statements, should do testing. It's the generalization that implies what I said and the idea that as long as he says 'billions' and 'huge profits' that he's going to make sense to a certain segment of society. I'm not part of the segment. And I'm going to call it on him or anyone else who would attempt to make that argument. It's the reason I rarely use 'BT' because it automatically implies something other than the 'tobacco industry'.
 

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I would think within a year, the entire planet would have some sort of law (locally or nationally) that forbids anyone under 18 from obtaining eCig products.

Maybe not the entire planet.

052610_Blast_SmokingBaby_NM_052610_18-27.jpg
 

Kent C

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Dr. Farsalinos and his colleagues did many of the early studies on their own time and without compensation. I don't know if that is the case now, but I personally don't expect anyone, much less a scientist to do these studies for free. There are expenses involved in the studies such as labs, lab equipment, products, etc., that someone has donated.

I don't know of any major grant money available for the studies on ecigs, contrary to the hundreds of thousands that are paid out to Glantz and his ilk.

So lets put things in perspective and not shoot ourselves in the foot by pointing fingers without having an iota of proof.

This post isn't aimed at any one person, but I've noticed lately derogatory comments regarding these studies when it comes to compensation. I've seen posts that say that the studies were paid by Big Vape companies. I'm one of the people that donated to this study, and I'm a soon to be 66 year old who's retired. Trust me, I'm not BV. Come on now, lets get real, please!

There's no mystery in funding - it should come from those consumers or vendors who are concerned with certain things they want studies. Individuals who are able can do any study they want, but that's their own decision. It may be worthy of praise or not. I find most of Dr. F's studies, worthy. I don't consider his urging just because some companies or the industry as a whole, makes profits as a justification to fund studies, IF they don't want to.

And I don't think any company (not making claims) should be forced to contribute to either a consumer or industry advocacy group.
 

Jman8

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There's no mystery in funding

For me, there is a mystery. I don't get why this stuff costs what it does. I have ideas, and pretty sure someone just like Dr. F. could post an itemized list that would quiet me or have me refrain from certain implications. But, I really do wonder why fellow, professional scientists wouldn't be highly critical of FDA's estimation of $335,000 per product. That figure seems like a gross injustice, and being done under the auspices of "science." Just as general public has a stake in this and points to raise for public concern, I would think scientists do as well, and this dollar figure seems like one of those things that ought to be exposed as an injustice. But, as I am "not in the know" when it comes to monetizing studies, then it could just as well be $3.5 million per product. But, I honestly cannot see justification for $35,000 per product and so, this seems like really huge deal for it to be conveyed as "cost of doing business in the market."

it should come from those consumers or vendors who are concerned with certain things they want studies.

I don't like this "should" word. I think if it "should" come from anywhere, it is general public (taxpayers) and ought to be balanced, in the name of science. Some in the public might loathe that millions were granted to BT or BV for a study that concludes vaping isn't all that harmful. But those same people would then get a taste of what us other members of the public feel when we see a million dollar study that appears to have bias going in and reaches conclusions that just so happen to match the ANTZ agenda.

I'm not too big on consumers paying for studies, though realize that because scientific community doesn't seem to have handle on fair and balanced approach, that the only way for certain scientific studies to occur is for consumers to pay for that balance.

As I see it consumers get to pay for:
- products they buy (some of which may be used by vendors to contribute to studies)
- taxes (some of which will be used by federally mandated ANTZ to study harms of vaping)
- crowdfunded studies (seeking fair and balanced approach to studies)
- higher insurance premiums (based on agenda that is established from the tax subsidies to ANTZ)

With what the vaping consumer does pay, it ought to be "vape everywhere you want, whenever you want and your opinion is above all others when it comes to reasonable regulations."
 

RosaJ

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There's no mystery in funding - it should come from those consumers or vendors who are concerned with certain things they want studies. Individuals who are able can do any study they want, but that's their own decision. It may be worthy of praise or not. I find most of Dr. F's studies, worthy. I don't consider his urging just because some companies or the industry as a whole, makes profits as a justification to fund studies, IF they don't want to.

And I don't think any company (not making claims) should be forced to contribute to either a consumer or industry advocacy group.

As a consumer who spends around $100 a month on ejuices from one vendor, whose vendor has grown from his garage into 3 new locales in less than 1 1/2 years, I would certainly hope that said vendor does invest in his business future. At least as far as I'm concerned being one of his customers. I don't begrudge his growth, on the contrary, I rejoice that he's been able to increase his business. However, if said vendor knowingly refuses to divulge if any of the juices I buy from him have the chemical in question, I would in no uncertain terms terminate our business relationship and start diy'ing. That would definitely put a $100 a month dent in his revenue.

He may not feel it too much, but if there are more and more of his customers that decide to do the same as I, then I think we can agree that an investment in testing his liquids is worth it in the long run.
 
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