Huh? Not sure why you said thisI don't see the connection.....
Hey there Robino, I edited my post to define the logical fallacy he's trying to use.
Don't let anyone tell you that nicotine is a poison...
- Thread starter DC2
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Hey there Robino, I edited my post to define the logical fallacy he's trying to use.
Huh? Not sure why you said this
Because it illustrates the point that pcrdude is desperately trying to avoid: that you don't need to rigorously define something in scientific terms for it to be a meaningful and widely used category.
Heuristic? Really? Did you read the link I posted? I don't think you did.
GM, you seem to be unable to grasp the concept of the difference between colloquial speech and scientific terminology. The term poison is outdated in scientific practice. The link I supplied explains exactly why. Exactly.
Now, back to the topic the OP wanted to emphasize.
Imagine you are out there vaping, and someone walks up to you and tells you that the nicotine you are vaping is a deadly poison. You are now armed with all the information you need to tell them that it most certainly is not.
You seem to want to argue for the sake of arguing. The evidence is there. Science has spoken (from the Society of Toxicology no less).
But as I have already said multiple times, by every possible definition of the word, Nicotine IS a deadly poison. I already said at least twice, nicotine comes from the tobacco plant, the purpose of nicotine in the tobacco plant is an insecticide to poison insects who are trying to eat it. In humans at low doses it has psychoactive effects, it is made by the plant as an insecticide, the whole point of an insecticide is to stop insects eating plants by poisoning them.
It may also be similar to caffeine, in that it is supposed to have positive effects at low doses to encourage pollination, but not consumption of the plant. Caffeine is similar and in plants it is produced to encourage pollination at low doses by having re-enforcing psychoactive effects, but at high doses it is an inseciticide / poison to discourage insects from eating the plant. I don't know if this applies to nicotine as well but it would make sense, but I would not class caffeine as a poison due to the potency.
Nicotine at low doses acts as a mildly toxic drug, pure nicotine is a deadly poison! I am not sure why you cannot grasp that.... According to your argument there is no such thing as a poison, which there clearly is, or the word would not exist. Maybe you just do not like to think that you are consuming something which is poisonous in pure form. If it was similar to caffiene, in that it would take multiple grams to cause death, then I could see your point, but we are talking about less than 1ml of pure nicotine would cause almost certain death, if that is not a poison then technically nothing is a poison.
Just to summarise :
1) Nicotine is produced by the plant as an insecticide.
2) The purpose of an insecticide is to poison insects.
3) Pure nicotine is almost 100% deadly at less than 1ml, more potent than strychnine and cyanide.
4) If you put 1ml of nicotine in someones drink, you would have poisoned them and the autopsy report would say "cause of death - nicotine poisoning"
I am not sure how it would be possible to make it any clearer than this really.
Last edited:
in·sec·ti·cide (n-skt-sd)
n.
A chemical substance used to kill insects.
"cide"
Have you ever noticed the connection between words like suicide, homicide, genocide, pesticide and fungicide? They all end in –cide. They all concern death, destruction, extermination and deliberate killing. The –cide ending originates from the Latin word caedere meaning to kill.
List of types of poison
The following is a list of types of poison by intended use:
Algaecide or Algicide - a substance used for killing and preventing the growth of algae
Avicide - any substance which can be used to kill birds
Biocide - a chemical substance capable of killing living organisms, usually in a selective way
Fungicide - a chemical compound or biological organism used to kill or inhibit fungi or fungal spores
Microbicide - any compound or substance whose purpose is to reduce the infectivity of microbes
Germicide - a disinfectant
Bactericide - a substance that kills bacteria
Viricide - a chemical agent which "kills" viruses outside the body
Herbicide - a substance used to kill unwanted plants
Parasiticide - any substance used to kill parasites
Pesticide - a substance or mixture of substances used to kill a pest
Acaricide - pesticides that kill mites
Insecticide - a pesticide used against insects
Molluscicide - pesticides against molluscs
Nematocide - a type of chemical pesticide used to kill parasitic nematodes (roundworms)
Rodenticide - a category of pest control chemicals intended to kill rodents
Spermicide - a substance that kills sperm
n.
A chemical substance used to kill insects.
"cide"
Have you ever noticed the connection between words like suicide, homicide, genocide, pesticide and fungicide? They all end in –cide. They all concern death, destruction, extermination and deliberate killing. The –cide ending originates from the Latin word caedere meaning to kill.
List of types of poison
The following is a list of types of poison by intended use:
Algaecide or Algicide - a substance used for killing and preventing the growth of algae
Avicide - any substance which can be used to kill birds
Biocide - a chemical substance capable of killing living organisms, usually in a selective way
Fungicide - a chemical compound or biological organism used to kill or inhibit fungi or fungal spores
Microbicide - any compound or substance whose purpose is to reduce the infectivity of microbes
Germicide - a disinfectant
Bactericide - a substance that kills bacteria
Viricide - a chemical agent which "kills" viruses outside the body
Herbicide - a substance used to kill unwanted plants
Parasiticide - any substance used to kill parasites
Pesticide - a substance or mixture of substances used to kill a pest
Acaricide - pesticides that kill mites
Insecticide - a pesticide used against insects
Molluscicide - pesticides against molluscs
Nematocide - a type of chemical pesticide used to kill parasitic nematodes (roundworms)
Rodenticide - a category of pest control chemicals intended to kill rodents
Spermicide - a substance that kills sperm
Last edited:
@ Nirk,
The "purpose" of why a plant makes something has nothing at all to do with it's instrinsic properties in a toxicological sense. Since arsenic is an element, it can't be a "poison" by that requirement.
As I have repeatedly stated, the dosage is a required component to explain the toxicity of a substance, so you agree with me in point #3.
It is totally clear to me, and the science of toxicology that the term "poison" is meaningless and outdated.
Did you read the link I provided? Please, please at least read page #6!!!!
The "purpose" of why a plant makes something has nothing at all to do with it's instrinsic properties in a toxicological sense. Since arsenic is an element, it can't be a "poison" by that requirement.
As I have repeatedly stated, the dosage is a required component to explain the toxicity of a substance, so you agree with me in point #3.
It is totally clear to me, and the science of toxicology that the term "poison" is meaningless and outdated.
Did you read the link I provided? Please, please at least read page #6!!!!
It's also totally clear from genetics that the concept of 'black person' is not founded in biology. It's a cultural construct.
Was Malcolm X a black person?
Was Malcolm X a black person?
But assuming that the word "poison" is a valid word (it is in the dictionary), although it is an outdated word and does not have a very specific meaning. By any possible definition, Nicotine IS a poison. .
Red Herring, possible straw man.
Goes well with the ad hominem and argumentum ad nauseam from Nirk.
You two are really entertaining!!!
Thanks,
argumentum ad nauseam
Seriously, do you think it will suddenly become true if you state it enough times?
Maybe if you bold it, it will become true....
Uhhhh, nope.
I already know what it says, my point is that by any possible definition of the word "poison", nicotine fits this definition, also in terms of toxicity, it is very toxic in pure form compared to pretty much any other substance. So in pure form nicotine is a highly toxic poison, there is absolutely no other way to describe it. If you cannot grasp that then you are either very dense or very stubborn.
argumentum ad nauseam
Seriously, do you think it will suddenly become true if you state it enough times?
Maybe if you bold it, it will become true....
Uhhhh, nope.
I don't think it will become true... Because it IS true as I have repeatedly shown with evidence. It is impossible to make it any clearer. Do you have learning difficulties?
Argumentum ad nauseum
Here is what we are debating, you seem to have gone off track a little:
Imagine you are out there vaping, and someone walks up to you and tells you that the nicotine you are vaping is a deadly poison. You are now armed with all the information you need to tell them that it most certainly is not.
Why?
Dose.
Here is what we are debating, you seem to have gone off track a little:
Imagine you are out there vaping, and someone walks up to you and tells you that the nicotine you are vaping is a deadly poison. You are now armed with all the information you need to tell them that it most certainly is not.
Why?
Dose.
Argumentum ad nauseum
Here is what we are debating, you seem to have gone off track a little:
Imagine you are out there vaping, and someone walks up to you and tells you that the nicotine you are vaping is a deadly poison. You are now armed with all the information you need to tell them that it most certainly is not.
Why?
Dose.
Seriously though. Why do you have a problem admitting that nicotine is, by every possible definition, a poison?
As we have already discussed multiple times nicotine at low doses is mildly toxic and relatively not that harmful but still it is a poison. I am bored of this now I don't know why I am even bothering with this.
For example cyanide and strychinine are classed as poisons right? yes they are.... But at miniscule amounts found in the environment they are not harmful to humans either. But your argument does not make any sense as what you are saying is that the word "poison" does not exist... But it does exist because it is in the dictionary.
Nicotine is more potent as a poison than strychnine or cyanide, so in your logic, those are not poisons as well then? Because we consume both of those daily as well in very small amounts from food, environment etc.
Last edited:
And that's not something I'd have ever disagreed with (despite your condescension, you didn't arm me with this information, thanks).
Conversely, you have a bottle of nicotine at 10% concentration. There are toddlers in the room. You can either put it on the coffee table, in a cup frequently used to hold apple juice, and ignore it if it spills, or you can think "Oh crap, better get the nicotine out of here and put it somewhere safe while the kids are around." You pick the latter.
Why?
Poison.
Conversely, you have a bottle of nicotine at 10% concentration. There are toddlers in the room. You can either put it on the coffee table, in a cup frequently used to hold apple juice, and ignore it if it spills, or you can think "Oh crap, better get the nicotine out of here and put it somewhere safe while the kids are around." You pick the latter.
Why?
Poison.
Ad hominem
Maybe if you actually think about the subject a little, instead of trying to "win" somthing, you'll start to grasp the concept......
Not that I want to get involved in any of this, but I would like to point out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose
Caffeine = 192 mg/kg
Nicotine = 50 mg/kg
Capsaicin = 47.2 mg/kg
Cyanide = 6.4 mg/kg
Strychnine = 2 mg/kg
And yes, I know it's Wikipedia.
Last edited:
For gm to accuse someone else of being condescending is kinda cute dontcha think?
The term poison is meaningless with out taking dose into consideration. The applicable area of science is toxicology, and that is their position on the matter. I posted a link to an article for the layperson descibing their position on the matter. You two ignored it, and resorted to using logical fallacies to debate your positions.
I even gave you the page number so you wouldn't have to read the entire document.
The term poison is meaningless with out taking dose into consideration. The applicable area of science is toxicology, and that is their position on the matter. I posted a link to an article for the layperson descibing their position on the matter. You two ignored it, and resorted to using logical fallacies to debate your positions.
I even gave you the page number so you wouldn't have to read the entire document.
Its not 50mg/kg though, that would mean that you would need to consume 3500mg of nicotine LD/50 for a 70kg person, which is not the case. You edited out the bit that says "3-50mg/kg"...
"More interestingly, Prof Mayer reports that the lethal level of nicotine as measured in postmortem exams was 2mg/ml of blood, corresponding to 4mg/ml of plasma. Such levels would correspond to ingesting 500-1000mg of nicotine. This is 10-20 times higher levels that those “accepted” today."
Even 1000mg would be 14mg/kg, 500 would be 7mg/kg and 70 would be 1mg/kg, assuming the person is 70kg.
I am not anti nicotine, I am on a vaping forum currently vaping 16mg nicotine eliquid, its just that I am not going to kid myself or other people that it is not toxic or a poison to make myself feel better about it.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
