Doubting the "Science" behind steeping

[Agastar]

Yeah like another post mentioned, I'm guessing the alcohol evaporation has something to do with it. I can definitely taste the alcohol in my e-juice.

I've got a 30 ml bottle of Pomegranate 70/30 PG/VG with 12mg nic that has been sitting for two weeks and no color change yet. I decided to put it in my medicine cabinet with the top off to see if I can get that alcohol taste out. I'm quite fond of it being clear but if it tastes better I think I can get over that.

 

[cookiebun]

Ok, so I'm not doubting the results of steeping itself as there are too many people who have had good results with it but my speculation comes from what I've seen on youtube and read here and there about how it works.

The biggest common thing I've seen/heard is that it will change colors, as if that were the tell tell sign that it worked right. From what I understand, the nicotine when exposed to air (ie the bottle cap left open) will darken in color.

So, is it the juice that is changing color from the nic alone or do the flavors behave the same way? The reason I ask is because my wife likes 0 nic e-juice and I've been trying to make her some flavors. Knowing what I know about nic exposed to oxygen makes me wonder if there is going to be any benefit to steeping a 0 nic juice. Do the juices become better because of the oxidation of the nic in the e-juice or is it just time that makes it better?

Thanks

I've been vaping 0 nic for 2 years.
Nearly everything tastes better after steeping, even if it's only 2 or 3 days.

 

[kuvanos]

When we let our bottles sit. We are aging them. Most of the flavors you buy are (blends of other flavors) to create the flavor you are buying. When we (age them), further blending of the original blends is still happening, which in the end, will change color.

 

[03FXDWG]

They don't all have alcohol in them. Fruity flavors are usually good to go but a day or 2 smooths them out. Some people even claim that the fruity ones "over-ripen" or lose flavor.

I have a raspberry that hasn't changed since day 1 & TFA Strawberry Ripe that took a couple days to perk up but then seemed to lose some flavor. Also, not all flavors change color. The raspberry is still clear after 6 weeks & has tasted the same. The strawberry was expected to & did turn a light yellow. Mocha turned a translucent beige but orange, coconut & peppermint all stayed clear. The mocha needed 3 days to age.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

 

[Levitas]

I think the biggest farce in the idea of "steeping" is that people believe that the flavors are changing. I honestly don't believe this to be the case. I don't believe that if I mix Flavor A into VG that it will change chemical composition, and transform into a different (albeit) similar more desirable flavor. It makes no sense.

What I believe to be happening in the process is allowing the ingredients to settle.

If I mix a flavor into a base, no matter how much I shake it, it won't blend as well as it would if I just left it alone for a given amount of time (i.e. 24 hours) + the initial shake. I imagine it in my head as the flavor molecules needed extra time to reach the all of the unaffected molecules in the base (allowing the flavoring to spread out, and reach all areas of the base). As opposed to vaping right after a mix, the flavor molecules are much more condensed. This is also why I think people believe that steeping alters the flavoring, when I just believe it's diluting it further to change certain aspects of the taste, but not actually changing the flavor itself.

This is also why I believe that no amounts of steeping will change a bad flavor into a good one. Rather, it may help settle down a potent flavor (because after sitting for a little bit, the flavoring has had time to spread out further, instead of being overly condensed, i.e. potent).

This process gets even more complicated with multi-flavor blends, because it's not just one flavoring competing to reach all aspects of the base, but many. Some flavorings will spread quicker than others, and so many variables can be put into that equation. For example: People may advise someone to allow an all VG blend to sit longer than an all PG blend. I attribute this to viscosity of said base(s), and how long it takes the flavoring(s) to reach all parts of the base.

In the long run, I don't give my blends time to steep, and if I do, I certainly don't wait any longer than 48 hours, tops. This is because I don't believe that the blend will benefit from further sitting (the exception I could see to this would be homemade, or NET's, as perhaps these may take longer to spread, or settle. I cannot say personally, because I've never tried one.)

I try my blend as soon as I mix it. If it tastes great, I vape it. If it tastes good, but feels like it's too powerful, or lacking, I'll give it the night. If it's no good beyond that, it usually goes into the Abyss (100ml big bottle of mistakes).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[JD1]

Oh... and I do like Royal by FlavourArt immediately at 2%

Me too. Except I like 3%. Dang your hide Rin, I think you're the one that got me hooked on Royal to start with lol.

 

[we2rcool]

I don't understand why "steeping" is such a controversial thing. Any decent cook knows that when foods, spices, fluids, etc., are put into a pan or bowl...they don't taste the same individually (or when first mixed together) as they do after they've had a chance to "steep". 'Doesn't even take a "gourmet cook" to understand it - grandma knew to make the potato salad the 'day before' and chili-cooks know the chili has to cook longer than just the time required to ensure the ingredients are 'done' to achieve the taste they've learned to create & expect. And of course, those that make beer, wine & liqueurs depend on these simple chemical actions & reactions.

Chemical reactions happen in food recipes & in e-juice recipes (with or without nicotine), whether we believe/understand it, or not. Some chemicals have virtually no 'reaction' and hence, virtually no change in taste over time. Some reach the point when they stop reacting & changing very quickly - others take much longer to reach the state where the chemical reactions have stopped.

Heat, vibration/shaking (just like stirring chili) and incorporating oxygen (just like making meringue or whipping cream), [edit] or taking off the top (allowing alcohol to evaporate - or like allowing wine to "breathe") [end edit] - all have very real effects.

There's certainly nothing I can think of that would prevent VG, PG, DW, PGA, NIC (or not) mixed with all manner of chemical flavorings, extracts and additives from having simple chemical reactions...just the same as foods & beverages.

 

[flowerpots]

I don't understand why "steeping" is such a controversial thing. Any decent cook knows that when foods, spices, fluids, etc., are put into a pan or bowl...they don't taste the same individually (or when first mixed together) as they do after they've had a chance to "steep". 'Doesn't even take a "gourmet cook" to understand it - grandma knew to make the potato salad the 'day before' and chili-cooks know the chili has too cook longer than just the time required to ensure the ingredients are 'done' to achieve the taste they've learned to create & expect. And of course, those that make beer, wine & liquers depend on these simple chemical actions & reactions.

Chemical reactions happen in food recipes & in e-juice recipes (with or without nicotine), whether we believe/understand it, or not. Some chemicals have virtually no 'reaction' and hence, virtually no change in taste over time. Some reach the point when they stop reacting & changing very quickly - others take much longer to reach the state where the chemical reactions have stopped.

Heat, vibration/shaking (just like stirring chili) and incorporating oxygen (just like making meringue or whipping cream) - all have very real effects.

There's certainly nothing I can think of that would prevent VG, PG, DW, PGA, NIC (or not) mixed with all manner of chemical flavorings, extracts and additives from having simple chemical reactions...just the same as foods & beverages.

Double like...I was going to ask if the OP is a cook.

 

[Ryedan]

I haven't read through this whole thread but it seems some very interesting points are being made here. I will come back and read a bit more carefully but in the mean time why not take a look at my steeping blog. It has some really good information about this process.

Danny, that's a great summary of everything I've learned about steeping and airing juice. Thanks for putting it together in the blog. Bookmarked for when steeping questions come up again in the future

 

[Rin13]

It's quite possible. : P But you are guilty of doing the same to me with a couple of flavors

Me too. Except I like 3%. Dang your hide Rin, I think you're the one that got me hooked on Royal to start with lol.

 

[Agastar]

Yes I am a cook. Not for a living though.

 

[JD1]

It's quite possible. : P But you are guilty of doing the same to me with a couple of flavors

Yeal, I remember that. Guess what I'm vaping now??? Ok, it's the cigar from VZ. I'm about half way down on my second 60ml bottle of it. I'm afraid I'm going to burn myself out on it but I just keep reaching for it lol.

 

[dannyv45]

I think the biggest farce in the idea of "steeping" is that people believe that the flavors are changing. I honestly don't believe this to be the case. I don't believe that if I mix Flavor A into VG that it will change chemical composition, and transform into a different (albeit) similar more desirable flavor. It makes no sense.

What I believe to be happening in the process is allowing the ingredients to settle.

If I mix a flavor into a base, no matter how much I shake it, it won't blend as well as it would if I just left it alone for a given amount of time (i.e. 24 hours) + the initial shake. I imagine it in my head as the flavor molecules needed extra time to reach the all of the unaffected molecules in the base (allowing the flavoring to spread out, and reach all areas of the base). As opposed to vaping right after a mix, the flavor molecules are much more condensed. This is also why I think people believe that steeping alters the flavoring, when I just believe it's diluting it further to change certain aspects of the taste, but not actually changing the flavor itself.

This is also why I believe that no amounts of steeping will change a bad flavor into a good one. Rather, it may help settle down a potent flavor (because after sitting for a little bit, the flavoring has had time to spread out further, instead of being overly condensed, i.e. potent).

This process gets even more complicated with multi-flavor blends, because it's not just one flavoring competing to reach all aspects of the base, but many. Some flavorings will spread quicker than others, and so many variables can be put into that equation. For example: People may advise someone to allow an all VG blend to sit longer than an all PG blend. I attribute this to viscosity of said base(s), and how long it takes the flavoring(s) to reach all parts of the base.

In the long run, I don't give my blends time to steep, and if I do, I certainly don't wait any longer than 48 hours, tops. This is because I don't believe that the blend will benefit from further sitting (the exception I could see to this would be homemade, or NET's, as perhaps these may take longer to spread, or settle. I cannot say personally, because I've never tried one.)

I try my blend as soon as I mix it. If it tastes great, I vape it. If it tastes good, but feels like it's too powerful, or lacking, I'll give it the night. If it's no good beyond that, it usually goes into the Abyss (100ml big bottle of mistakes).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

My hat is off to you sir. You hit the nail right on the head. Most flavors expecially artificial flavors start there life as a solid crystal (Flavor molecules) these crystal molecules are blended together in a base (PG/VG/alcohol etc..) to make the flavor concentrate. When these flavor concentrates are added to your base they need time to spread through the base and bond with the molecules of the base. This is where steeping comes in. As you said this will not change the taste of a bad flavor it will only mellow it as it spreads through the base. THink of it as adding sugar or any other powder such as koolaid to water. The powder needs time to desolve in water. Add to much and some powder may sit at the bottom of the container undesolved but come back a few days later and it's all desolved. The thicker the base the longer it will take to desolve.

 

[DaveP]

Steeping makes for a good conversation, but my method is to try the juice right out of the mailbox. If it's good, I vape it. If it isn't, it goes to the back of the line. If it never tastes any better, it goes into a box of juices I didn't like. When I run out of juices because I didn't get around to ordering, I go into the dislike box and try some. At the point, I usually find one or two that I can vape until my order comes in.

The rest usually get canned at that time. I need room for future juices to do the long steep process.

Right now, there are a couple I have left on the counter in a dark corner, hoping they would get better. Nope, still tastes like soap. I need to do some culling.

 

[vapero]

well with multiple flavor mixes the flavor do change, as you said some flavors tend to spread faster than others and it makes a difference... the flavors are the same at the beginning and at the end, just the concentration of each is what changes...
here's an analogy...
make some orange juice ice cubes then pour them into a lemonade, at first you will must likely taste pure lemonade with a hint of orange, as the ice melts and blends you will begin to taste more the orange than before until it is totally melted then you will get the true flavor that you mixed

 

[dannyv45]

If it isn't, it goes to the back of the line. If it never tastes any better, it goes into a box of juices I didn't like. When I run out of juices because I didn't get around to ordering, I go into the dislike box and try some.

I found many a good juice doing that.

 

[dannyv45]

well with multiple flavor mixes the flavor do change, as you said some flavors tend to spread faster than others and it makes a difference... the flavors are the same at the beginning and at the end, just the concentration of each is what changes...
here's an analogy...
make some orange juice ice cubes then pour them into a lemonade, at first you will must likely taste pure lemonade with a hint of orange, as the ice melts and blends you will begin to taste more the orange than before until it is totally melted then you will get the true flavor that you mixed

Very good analogy. Some flavor molecules desolve at slower rates as others and temperature and base thickness all play a roll in how fast a mixture matures.

 

[DaveP]

I look at steeping the way I look at food and drink. Spaghetti is always better after it sits in the fridge and is warmed up the next day. The juices run together and enhance the taste.

If you pour food coloring into water, it just makes tendrils and settles to the bottom. You have to shake it or let it sit over night for the color to permeate the water. I agree that it's a blending at the molecular level.

Still, some juices will never taste right to me, while other people will absolutely love them. How anyone could love bacon juice is beyond me.

 

[Levitas]

My hat is off to you sir. You hit the nail right on the head. Most flavors expecially artificial flavors start there life as a solid crystal (Flavor molecules) these crystal molecules are blended together in a base (PG/VG/alcohol etc..) to make the flavor concentrate. When these flavor concentrates are added to your base they need time to spread through the base and bond with the molecules of the base. This is where steeping comes in. As you said this will not change the taste of a bad flavor it will only mellow it as it spreads through the base. THink of it as adding sugar or any other powder such as koolaid to water. The powder needs time to desolve in water. Add to much and some powder may sit at the bottom of the container undesolved but come back a few days later and it's all desolved. The thicker the base the longer it will take to desolve.

Which would mean, one could potentially alter a blend's taste by changing which ingredient goes first, and/or prolonging additional ingredients.

For example: If I mixed a bottle of Blueberry + Cream immediately, the two flavors are competing to reach all of the molecules in the base, thus resulting in one becoming dominant, and the other becoming more latent. However, let's say that I want the cream to come in the back round, and the blueberry on the fore, perhaps if one were to mix the base with just the cream for say 24-48 hours, then add the blueberry... would that potentially achieve success?

Of course there are other variables in the equation: flavor %'s, the base itself, etc. But I'm thinking of giving this a shot in the near future.

 

[flowerpots]

Which would mean, one could potentially alter a blend's taste by changing which ingredient goes first, and/or prolonging additional ingredients.

For example: If I mixed a bottle of Blueberry + Cream immediately, the two flavors are competing to reach all of the molecules in the base, thus resulting in one becoming dominant, and the other becoming more latent. However, let's say that I want the cream to come in the back round, and the blueberry on the fore, perhaps if one were to mix the base with just the cream for say 24-48 hours, then add the blueberry... would that potentially achieve success?

Of course there are other variables in the equation: flavor %'s, the base itself, etc. But I'm thinking of giving this a shot in the near future.

This makes sense to me. I think I will try it too.