E-Cigarettes Under Fire--WebMD Article

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Kendra

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Mar 21, 2009
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I never said it causes throat cancer...i was asking WHAT IF IT DOES? I dont see why you would want to manipulate my point and take it completely out of context like that...or maybe thats because you dont want anyone to notice YOU might be the one "speculating" when you say how sure . . . [snip]. . .

But what do i know?, im just an educated drug addict afterall :)

^^This is the post where I concluded you have no idea what you're talking about at all and are much less reasonable, logical and wise than you give yourself credit for being.

Yvilla-- thanks for your informative posts, links, logic and ability to connect dots. I appreciated everything you posted and for presenting such cogent arguments.

Sunvaporer-- I always like your posts! :)

Antok-- Can I be your friend? ;) I am SO glad you took the time to clearly explain what at least some of us were thinking! You are spot on!
 

Hangar

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Mar 27, 2009
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antok...im so sorry you feel that way, i truly am. It was never my intent to come across as you have described.

But i will NOT apologize for defending myself against attacks when i was voicing a simple, relevant, and valid opinion claiming to partly agree with a quote which summized that it could be possible for some people to actually worsen their nicotine addiction using an ecig, and that further testing should be done.

Once again...Nobody knows the true answers yet to the health concerns...to argue that a substance and delivery device is safer just because there are less chemicals involved is absolutely absurd. That is not my opinion, it is simply common sense. Also, my concern in voicing my opinion at the time was not based on zero nic users, that should have been obvious to those who have read my original post #4.

Many of you are so quick to believe in any quotes that make light of and will help you to retain the ecig, yet you turn your backs on any quotes which might pose a simple warning about them...its laughable...sorry but thats the truth here...you want to hear nothing but good things about ecigs and are slamming down anything that might put a drizzle into parade day. Not all of you of course...but too many thats for sure.

This thread wreaks of clan-ish political sewage...the same type of sewage you claim to be fighting against...how utterly ironic and hypocritical.

As I left off, previously...the thread will stand for itself and, regardless of the personalities invloved, will hopefully if nothing else make some of us think twice before shooting down an opinion or observation which was purely and solely meant to be of a helpful nature to the common good of the community as a whole and NOT turning it into some sort of political witch hunt, complete with smoke and mirrors which it appears you have been trying to do here.

Most if not all of my posts stand for themselves as being reasonable in nature.

Enough is enough already.
 
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westcoast2

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Apr 5, 2009
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A number of factors need to be weighed, not just the health effects on the user. Most of the discussion so far has been about the safety of the e-cig from the POV of the person using it.

Smoking 'restricitions' er bans came into being due to a percieved threat (SHS) to others. Is SHV (second hand vape) injurous to others?

Clearly there is no combusion and so no SS (side stream) or MS (Main stream) smoke. There is exhaled vapour only. Does this vapour contain carcinogens? Apparently not.

So the e-cig could be said to be a healthier alternative from this POV. A clear public health win if the health groups/people saying SHS is a danger are really concerned about overall public health.

I have heard anti-smokers say things like 'I don't care if you smoke yourself to death, as long as you don't kill me'. The anti-smoking (or TC) groups only wanted 'some smoke free places', No talk of banning ciggerettes, no focus on nicotine just their personal comfort. (It does seem some groups now want a 'tobacco' free world, but that's for another day)

It seems convienient that a study comes out, at this time, on Nicotine that 'suggests' nicotine 'may' 'possibly' be slighlty more harmful than 'we' thought, especially since it has been well and truly studied for more than 50 years.

Of course smokeless tobacco is very healthy for others - no smoke at all - yet is still banned in Europe (excluding Sweden) which means both arguments (User and Non User Health) need to be discussed.

Nicotine is regulated and allowed for personal inhalation through combustion, or oraly or via the skin. There is more regulation of nicotine than there is of caffein, yet there are hazards associated with caffein. Nocotine inhalation (via a PV) may or may not be hazardous, yet the risk is bourne by the user as with caffein or alcohol. Further study, of PVs, would be useful and as new information becomes available it better informs.

To now claim that the deilvery system (e-cig) is to be outright banned along with the nic mixes, given what is known, is a different way of treating nicotine (and associated hardware) to the past and (IMHO) infringes on personal choice.
 

strayling

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Feb 25, 2009
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there's some of that unsubstantiated smoke...

Have some substance:

"to argue that a substance and delivery device is safer just because there are less chemicals involved is absolutely absurd."

Do you think it makes more sense to argue that it's less safe? That flies in the face of basic science and common sense both.

Additionally, you neglect to mention that the delivery system used in e-cigs operates at lower temperatures and is thus likely to involve fewer chemical reactions.

Common sense and basic science say that it's likely to be safer, the operative word being "likely". Sure, testing is needed to be certain and nobody is arguing differently, but the sensible default position to take is that it's safer until proven otherwise. You seem to be arguing the reverse.
 

antok

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Mar 18, 2009
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OK, I'll play.

Thank you, by the way, for continuing to illustrate my point for me with the "political sewage" comment. I do find someone who claims impartiality and wishes to be a mediator or go-to guy when their purpose seems to be simply to promote themselves, their views, argue, and put themselves above other members to be ironic and hypocritical. But hey, that's just me.

I also love how you used my post as an excuse to once again intone that the majority of the forum members are blind and unwilling to "see the light" as it were. Kindly show me where I said anything remotely related to the junk in your 4th paragraph. What I posted has absolutely zero to do with blindly hanging on to e-cigs for dear life, and everything to do with the fact that you assert through your posts that almost everyone, save yourself, does. Get off your high horse and quit with the assumptions.
People are not as blind, stupid, or naive as you appear to believe, so quit with the condescending tone and people may actually listen to something you have to say.
You are not the sole beacon of wisdom in the darkness, and presenting yourself as such is what prevents any valid points you may have from being recognized.

Nowhere did I argue anything about the safety of e-cigs, but since you brought up common sense, I don't mind replying with a thought or two on that front. Now remember kids, this is aNToK's OPINION. Nothing more.

Lessee,
To say that noone knows the true answers with regard to health concerns, I agree. It's impossible to say without more evidence and study.

To say that it is safer simply because it contains less chemicals? How about flipping that a bit instead of slanting it.
To me, "common sense" dictates that the absence of fission of plant material, the absence of 99% (estimated, of course) of the additives acknowledged to be in cigarettes, and the fact that the major ingredients in e-liquid are known and understood fairly well, and are in fact contained in cigarettes in some amount anyway, leads me to the strong conclusion that e-smoking stands an overwhelming chance of being "LESS HARMFUL" to the body than smoking tobacco. How's that? Most people believe that nicotine is a poison and go into e-smoking accepting it as such after initially being addicted to smoking. If it were to turn out that it is not as harmful as currently believed, then that would be a nice little bonus.

Do you honestly believe that most members here think that e-cigs are 100% harmless? Give me a break. The vast majority of members here are addicted to nicotine and believe that e-cigs offer a less harmful method of dealing with their addiction. Some wish to quit, and others to simply minimize the health risks while enjoying their "fix". "Common sense", along with reams of anecdotal knowledge indicate that the probability for this being the case are rather high.

I'm rambling a bit, and it's lunchtime. Frankly, my post had nothing to do with your views on the dangers or warnings about e-cigs. It had to do with the way you present yourself and your arguments. You are not the underdog fighting to good fight for the benefit of the people. You come across as an arrogant, condescending wannabe know-it-all who belittles others who choose not to agree with him and then doesn't understand why people don't listen to him. Get over yourself and discuss things as an equal rather than from your false pedestal and I'm betting that the community will be much more receptive to your thoughts.
 

Hangar

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Mar 27, 2009
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"Do you think it makes more sense to argue that it's less safe? "

im not preaching it as safe or unsafe, because either one is irresponsible at this early stage since there is no conclusive scientific evidence to support either theory at this point in time.

Simply pointing out that i felt a certain quoted warning may have some validity to it should not warrant the "stone him quickly!" response which i unfortunately received...if anything, that sort of response makes it seem that some of you are already deeming it as safer...which again, you might assume...but would be irresponsible at its core.

I thought the thread was started to discuss that quote in an intelligent manner and my response to it was nothing short of being an acceptable opinion certainly deserving of at least some respect even it you didnt agree with it...who's being unfair here?



"Common sense and basic science say that it's likely to be safer"

Theoretically speaking, kneejerk common sense might initially lead someone to believe that, this in a way i can at least understand, BUT...anyone who understands something about scientific testing realizes that until an exact device and formula are tested in a controlled environment NOTHING can be assumed as certainty...and along the way to getting there we might encounter some red flags that need to be addressed...again, this is something i thought would be a welcomed discussion...but apparently not.

By trying to elborate somewhat on these matters of discussion (which OTHERS have brought up, not me mind you) I have found nothing but extreme anger, mistrust, and rather rude attitudes pointing at ME which is what ive been defending myself against since the start of this thread...nice!
 

strayling

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Feb 25, 2009
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Hangar, while you may be well intentioned you do yourself no credit by taking quotes out of context as you just did with my statement about likelihood above. Using the pejorative "kneejerk" doesn't help either.

I stand by my assertion that your knowledge of common sense and basic science - at least that which you've shown in this thread - is sadly lacking, and you deserved to be called on it. Anyway, we're probably not going to do anyone any good by debating this any more so I'll stop now.
 
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Nick O'Teen

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Mar 28, 2009
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www.decadentvapours.com
I'm with Antok.

dont_feed_the_trolls.jpg


and strayling.
 

Hangar

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Mar 27, 2009
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You come across as an arrogant, condescending wannabe know-it-all who belittles others who choose not to agree with him...

Are you saying that the initial arrogance which was FIRST pointed at ME (and caused me to defend my position) should have gone unchallenged?

All i did was respond with a simple "i tend to agree with so and so..."...this in turn started a trend of "sorry but agreeing with the enemy isnt allowed here" type of responses (talk about arrogance).

I am not by nature an arrogant person, in fact those who personally know me happen to know me as a fairly empathetic and reserved guy who doesnt often get involved in other peoples arguments.

..ive been seeing responses and one way threads on these forums for weeks now where some people have been castrated for being alleged "trolls" without getting too heavily involved in any of them or even at all...but when it gets to a point where a person cant even get a word in edgewise to simply voice a valid concern without being accused of being in cahootz with the enemy then its time to take a stand im afraid.

..so pardon me for defending myself and returning the same exact attitude ive been seeing from members all over thiese boards lately. Its really unfair and out of hand...if you can dish it out and be nasty to me and others who are being cautious then just be ready to take some back in return...tit for tat.

again...i didnt start this thread...i simply stated some concerns i had over a quote which the topic starter posted. I should never have been treated the way in which i was for simply voicing a concern in the initial respectful manner in which i expressed it.

...treat my concerns with respect, and ill treat your concerns with respect...its a 2 way street.

Anyone else?
 
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strayling

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Feb 25, 2009
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Are you saying that the initial arrogance which was FIRST pointed at ME (and caused me to defend my position) should have gone unchallenged?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mis-attributed that quote to me out of incompetence rather than malice. I have to wonder, if the situations were reversed, whether you'd apply your knowledge of common sense and basic science consistently and assume the reverse :p
 
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