E Juice not a tobacco product????

[zoiDman]

...

No, it is not relevant to the various venues of civil action against the regulating regime. This kind of thing happens and has happened many times.

The alternative, simply rolling over and taking it because rich and powerful people might try to stop you ... would be practically unethical for a product like ecigs which has very little intrinsic harm (but really has almost staggering lifesaving potential).

If you don't think Taxation is an Important Factor in the Actions of the FDA, well, then I think you are Taking a Very Simplest Approach to Nicotine e-liquids.

It would be Nice if we All lived in a Happy Magical Land where something like e-Cigarettes were Judged on their "lifesaving potential".

But we don't. We live in a Country where Tobacco Products are seen as Tax Vehicles.

You can Name a Nicotine e-liquid Anything you want. And you can Make a Nicotine e-liquid from Anything you want like Truck Loads of Eggplant. But the Long and the Short of it is that the FDA is Going to Regulate it.

And the Sate and Federal Government is going to Tax it.

If it makes you Sleep Better at Night thinking that it Isn't going to happen because e-Cigarettes have "very little intrinsic harm", more Power to You.

BTW - What are these "various venues of civil action against the regulating regime"? I'm sure we would All like to hear about them.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Addictiveness is not per se a reason to grant the right to regulate, any more than it is for caffeine, fat or sugar. In this case, the conflation with burned tobacco IS a factor, because of the pubic stigma burned tobacco has required.

The FDA has already been given the right to regulate nic content in analogs .. that's my point ..

 

[zoiDman]

The FDA has already been given the right to regulate nic content in analogs .. that's my point ..

I think Everyone but the Good Doctor knows that.

BTW - Maybe dr g is thinking that things could be Appealed in a Higher Court?

LOL

 

[dr g]

If you don't think Taxation is an Important Factor in the Actions of the FDA, well, then I think you are Taking a Very Simplest Approach to Nicotine e-Liquids.

It would be Nice if we All lived in a Happy Magical Land where something like e-Cigarettes were Judged on their "lifesaving potential".

But we don't. We live in a Country where Tobacco Products are seen as Tax Vehicles.

You can Name a Nicotine e-Liquid Anything you want. And you can Make a Nicotine e-Liquid from Anything you want like Truck Loads of Eggplant. But the Long and the Short of it is that the FDA is Going to Regulate it.

And the Sate and Federal Government is going to Tax it.

Irrelevant poppycock.

BTW - What are these "various venues of civil action against the regulating regime"? I'm sure we would All like to hear about them.

Why are you trying to argue when you 1) didn't read what the subject is and/or 2) have no understanding of it?

The FDA has already been given the right to regulate nic content in analogs .. that's my point ..

You keep posting this, but it's not relevant to anything we're discussing. Ejuices, like NRTs are not analogs.

 

[wbbrn1952]

E-Juice can be a nicotine product but not necessarily a tobacco product.

 

[zoiDman]

The FDA has already been given the right to regulate nic content in analogs .. that's my point ..

She just Doesn't Get it Willie.

 

[Robino1]

I don't know why people keep comparing coffee and a cola product to each other. Coffee comes from the coffee bean which contains caffeine. Cola comes from the Kola bean which has caffeine. Two separate products. Both contain caffeine.

Eliquid will be regulated as a tobacco product because of intended use as a smoking alternative regardless of where the nic comes from. Illogical? Yes. Is government ever logical? Don't we wish.

Ideally, eliquid would be put in a different category rather than lumped in with tobacco. If regulated as nicotine, it would then fall under the drug category like patches and gum. I would rather it be as an alternative to tobacco. I don't want it seen as a drug either. We can all argue about this forever but it will not have any affect on what the FDA finally decides.

 

[Uncle Willie]

She just Doesn't Get it Willie.

Well, I understand many like perceive to win and have the last word, what has irked me the most in the many, many years I've been a member of various forums .. (remember USENET and bulletin boards .. ??) .. is the lack of following continuity and keeping a posters posts within the context of the thread that the discussion is taking place within .. oh, well .. things don't really change, now do they .. ??

 

[dr g]

I don't know why people keep comparing coffee and a cola product to each other. Coffee comes from the coffee bean which contains caffeine. Cola comes from the Kola bean which has caffeine. Two separate products. Both contain caffeine.

Eliquid will be regulated as a tobacco product because of intended use as a smoking alternative regardless of where the nic comes from. Illogical? Yes. Is government ever logical? Don't we wish.

Ideally, eliquid would be put in a different category rather than lumped in with tobacco. If regulated as nicotine, it would then fall under the drug category like patches and gum. I would rather it be as an alternative to tobacco. I don't want it seen as a drug either. We can all argue about this forever but it will not have any affect on what the FDA finally decides.

This is the point of what we are discussing. Pro-vaping groups are lobbying for a third categorization between tobacco and drug regulation. It's clear that vaping needs it. The science is solid now and will be overwhelming in short order.

If the regulators won't do it at first, then it may take a court ruling to change that.

Again this is the point of what we are discussing.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Ideally, eliquid would be put in a different category rather than lumped in with tobacco. If regulated as nicotine, it would then fall under the drug category like patches and gum. I would rather it be as an alternative to tobacco. I don't want it seen as a drug either. We can all argue about this forever but it will not have any affect on what the FDA finally decides.

Pretty much .. what we don't want, and what was fought hard to avoid was the FDA attempting to classify electronic cigarettes as a pharmaceutical product a few years back .. I will certainly take a degree of regulation over that alternative ..

No matter where the nic comes from ..

 

[Robino1]

This is the point of what we are discussing. Pro-vaping groups are lobbying for a third categorization between tobacco and drug regulation. It's clear that vaping needs it. The science is solid now and will be overwhelming in short order.

If the regulators won't do it at first, then it may take a court ruling to change that.

Again this is the point of what we are discussing.

Pretty much .. what we don't want, and what was fought hard to avoid was the FDA attempting to classify electronic cigarettes as a pharmaceutical product a few years back .. I will certainly take a degree of regulation over that alternative ..

No matter where the nic comes from ..

Basically you both, WE ALL, want the same thing. Where is the arguing coming from?

 

[zoiDman]

Pretty much .. what we don't want, and what was fought hard to avoid was the FDA attempting to classify electronic cigarettes as a pharmaceutical product a few years back .. I will certainly take a degree of regulation over that alternative ..

No matter where the nic comes from ..

Yeah... Going down the Pharmaceutical Product/Drug road would have been a Complete Disaster.

 

[dr g]

Pretty much .. what we don't want, and what was fought hard to avoid was the FDA attempting to classify electronic cigarettes as a pharmaceutical product a few years back

You don't call the war over after the first skirmish.

I will certainly take a degree of regulation over that alternative ..

No matter where the nic comes from ..

If we accept regulation as tobacco, we will lose online commerce, the majority of juice producers, and possibly most hardware producers as well. The industry will basically be handed to big tobacco, big pharma, and big vaping, the only entities with enough capital and infrastructure to deal with tobacco regulation.

If we allow that without going down swinging, we deserve to lose everything we love about vaping and go back to smoking analogs.

Basically you both, WE ALL, want the same thing. Where is the arguing coming from?

Good question, you should ask the folks who are arguing against taking steps to get what we want... yourself included.

 

[zoiDman]

Basically you both, WE ALL, want the same thing. Where is the arguing coming from?

I think where the Friction comes from is that One Member sees something that Shouldn't or May Happen. Where the Other Understands/Knows that it has Already Happened.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Regulation of some sort has a very likely degree of passage .. it's really a matter of how much the hammer comes down, not whether it will or not ..

Vendors for the most part have made their own bed .. there has been ample time for a concentrated Lobby effort led by the Mom and Pop shops .. they have had a few years since the Smoking Everywhere / NJOY vs FDA ruling .. and when that ruling came down, the writing was clearly on the wall .. yet in the continuous money grab designed to fully capitalize on the profit that could be made in this exploding industry, the on-line folks, the Mom and Pops etc, mostly saw only the green and I guess they figured it would be a never ending cash flow .. I have no real sympathy for a business model like that ..

And I have owned my own business for over 35 years .. you must plan ahead and read the writing on the wall .. and in this industry, it's not like it was written in invisible ink ..

A degree of regulation is needed .. I don't think you'll find that most ECF veterans would dispute that .. what we want is fairness ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

Basically you both, WE ALL, want the same thing. Where is the arguing coming from?

Honestly, I don't argue .. I debate and I like a spirited exchange of thoughts and ideas ..

The sad part is we can sometimes begin to sound like our own worst enemies .. yet we all have a common interest ..

 

[DC2]

You keep posting this, but it's not relevant to anything we're discussing. Ejuices, like NRTs are not analogs.

I'm not entirely following this conversation, but I will point this out...

The FDA has been given the power by the FSPTCA to regulate the nicotine content of tobacco products.
Their only condition is that they not require that the nicotine content be reduced to zero.

When the FDA deems electronic cigarettes to be tobacco products, they will automatically have the power to regulate e-liquid nicotine content.

 

[Robino1]

You don't call the war over after the first skirmish.



If we accept regulation as tobacco, we will lose online commerce, the majority of juice producers, and possibly most hardware producers as well. The industry will basically be handed to big tobacco, big pharma, and big vaping, the only entities with enough capital and infrastructure to deal with tobacco regulation.

If we allow that without going down swinging, we deserve to lose everything we love about vaping and go back to smoking analogs.



Good question, you should ask the folks who are arguing against taking steps to get what we want... yourself included.

Lets see, I'm a member of CASAA, I sign petitions and I participate in surveys. When Calls to Action are posted, not only here but on the CASAA Facebook pages, I write and tell my story to whomever is on those lists. Do you?

 

[DC2]

Good question, you should ask the folks who are arguing against taking steps to get what we want... yourself included.

What steps should we be taking that people are arguing against?

 

[dr g]

What steps should we be taking that people are arguing against?

I know it's hard to follow once it gets mucked up, but the answer is in this thread. It's what we were discussing when people just had to disagree about something.

Lets see, I'm a member of CASAA, I sign petitions and I participate in surveys. When Calls to Action are posted, not only here but on the CASAA Facebook pages, I write and tell my story to whomever is on those lists. Do you?

That's not the question. And that's not too far off from the "I have black friends" defense.