E-liquids standards!

[skoony]

The presence of China and SE Asia (and/or other countries) really scares me. Also, the FDA is now saying that food flavors/seasonings are not GRAS for the purpose of smoking with a e-cigarette because the evaluation on those products was done with the understanding that they would be eaten, not smoked. That just came out in the leaked documents last month.

Any worries about our Asian brethren are unfounded. Do you think Dekang wants to poison us?
We all know already that GRAS refers the flavors being eaten not inhaled the understanding is that using something not considered GRAS would be a big problem. Remember our juice is roughly give or take 80% plus VG and or PG which is generally recognized as safe to inhale. I personally believe this is why vaping is so inherently safe from the start without regulation one. Everything in the juice is dispersed and suspended in the PG/VG and thus is buffered in a way from concentrating and remaining in the lungs as it would be absorbed or carried away with the base liquid.(it's just a theory of mine)

You have a statement, "If anyone knows of any pathogen that was ever spread via e-juice...", but couldn't their be a pathogen that we just don't know about? What will the National Institutes of Health/FDA have to say on that.

PG and VG have robust antibacterial and antiviral qualities so it's unlikely a pathogen could be spread
via these liquids. This is why they were used for a time in inhalers. They are very cheap and very,very safe. Both the CDC and the FDA are very keen on crushing vaping,if there were pathogens being spread our little popstand would have been shut down a long time ago.

Towards the end you say, "It's my belief one would have to deliberately adulterate the product with something known to cause immediate harm to a user for there ever to be a problem to occur" Well, to prevent that, shouldn't nicotine and nicotine delivery devices be a controlled item to be managed or that their be a certification process to possess and use such items?

No,regulations would not stop deliberate acts of adulteration. What are we trying to certify anyway?
You take e-juice that's made from very safe and stable raw materials. PG/VG,flavoring and,Nicotine
(which admittedly needs some care in handling) measure and mix.Walah!=e-juice. That's it.
There really isn't anymore to it. This juice is used in electronic device that uses a circuit that
can't possibly be made any simpler. A power source,coil and,switch. That's three,count them
three components. For the life of me I don't understand why this should be regulated as if we
were constructing a ICBM. This is at home hobby and crafts sort of stuff. Aside from people
mishandling and abusing (pushing batteries to the limit is abusing even if done knowledgeably)
I see no inherent safety issues whatsoever aside from deliberate acts to cause harm.
No offense intended to my fellow cloud bro's.

You don't think that most e juice for sale is from legit inspected and certified facilities do you ? There is a HUGE amount of "Joe blows" out their selling juice from their bedroom and basements , garages you name it .

Why does everyone assume one needs a lab NASA or Intel would use to make juice. A neat,clean and
organised work space can be made anywhere nor needs to even be certified. Assuming there are hordes
of vendors making juice under deplorable conditions is quite frankly an insult to peoples intelligence.
Anyone who believes this is a major concern haven't been paying attention. Where are all the poisoned vapers?

Nope.
Ever see a health department inspection score card up on the wall of a vape shop that makes Ejuice?

They are unlicensed operations that the laws do not yet cover.

But they will. It is inevitable and to me not undesirable.

In the state of Minnesota if you are in business you must comply with the laws and
regulations concerning doing business. All the B&Ms,gas stations,tobacco shops,grocery stores
etc.,are licensed. All the juice I buy made in state is from licensed businesses. granted there are
probably small operations working out of there homes,I have no worries about this, if the state finds out
they better be a licensed business. It's not against the law to work from home. Being a business
in Minnesota automatically confers the right for inspectors access to your premises for inspection.
The assumption that e-juice manufacture is totally unsupervised by state and local authorities
is erroneous in most parts of the country. If there were any indication of possible harm to the public
government at any level has the right and duty to step in. That's what I said. We are all being hornswoggled. If vaping was dangerous they simply could shut us down with no need for any
regulations deeming or not.

Fair enough , my point was that imo , most people who buy juice automatically think it's made in a proper clean facility but since the hammer hasn't been dropped who knows.

I am reasonably certain 99.999999999999% of the juice is AOK. There is no evidence
for me to assume otherwise.

Regards
Mike

 

[englishmick]

During my brief stay at college I put in some time in a laboratory. There were rules for everything. If you took the lid off a bottle there were rules about where you put the lid while you were working, to ensure nothing got on the lid that could get back into the bottle. And where you put the pipette between uses. Etc. Those rules were to assure accuracy rather than product safety since we weren't making products. The rules were also in place to force us to develop discipline about what we were doing.

I don't follow that level of discipline at home, even though I understand what it's about. I do my mixing on a metal tray that I put on the table in front of my computer screen. I drop lids and droppers on the tray. Also standing on the tray are bottles of flavoring, which were previously standing on a shelf that might not have been very clean. But I'm only making it for myself.

Juice makers in B&M's are likely to be working on tables. Do they drop the bottle top on the table? Where was the dropper cap sitting while they mix the juice? What else has been on the table? What could have got onto the tip of the dropper? How often do they clean the table? What is the procedure if they drop a bottle or dropper on the floor? Were cockroaches or mice running around the floor or the table last night? Juice spills are probably a tasty treat for a bug.

I'm sure a lot people are careful, but I'm sure some aren't. It's not hard to think up a scenario where something you don't want could get onto or into your bottle. Like someone's flu germs, or mouse droppings.

 

[inspects]

If anyone looked closely at any restaurant kitchen, you would never eat at ANY restaurant EVER AGAIN....please trust me on this.

I'm in the commercial real estate business, I've seen more restaurants than I care to remember. These are all "state or county inspected" operating restaurants all over the country, so filthy it would make you gag.

 

[DaveP]

We vape juice at 400 - 500 F at the coil level. Bacteria and virulent contents that weren't killed by the PG in the juice are likely killed when the fire button is pressed. I worry more about the contents of the bottle and whether it contains anything that will poison me or destroy my lungs over time.

 

[DaveP]

I'm a Hangsen and Dekang fan because their facilities are accredited and meet ISO 9000 standards, among other international rating approvals they list. The videos on YouTube show airlocked juice production and bottling chambers where people in safety gear sit at workstations in a clean room environment.

I buy juice from local B&M's and online vendors, but I tend to lean toward Dekang and Hangsen for the light, clean flavors I get as well as the low prices for 50ml bottles.

I can't help but to be impressed by their factory tour videos.

 

[herb]

If anyone looked closely at any restaurant kitchen, you would never eat at ANY restaurant EVER AGAIN....please trust me on this.

I'm in the commercial real estate business, I've seen more restaurants than I care to remember. These are all "state or county inspected" operating restaurants all over the country, so filthy it would make you gag.

I worked on commercial Hobart dish washing machines in many restaurants for a while and you are 100% correct , nobody would ever eat out again if they saw how disgusting those places are .

 

[Frenchfry1942]

Well, coming back to this and reading thoughts, the thing that sticks is that DIY is alive and well because vendors are not well trusted. I know some DIY is done for the cost, but it seems some do it for health protection, too.

I hope vendors notice.

 

[skoony]

Juice makers in B&M's are likely to be working on tables. Do they drop the bottle top on the table? Where was the dropper cap sitting while they mix the juice? What else has been on the table? What could have got onto the tip of the dropper? How often do they clean the table? What is the procedure if they drop a bottle or dropper on the floor? Were cockroaches or mice running around the floor or the table last night? Juice spills are probably a tasty treat for a bug.

I'm sure a lot people are careful, but I'm sure some aren't. It's not hard to think up a scenario where something you don't want could get onto or into your bottle. Like someone's flu germs, or mouse droppings.

I seriously doubt any cross contamination would be in an amount that could possibly affect the outcome
of your recipe's in any measurable way. Aside from the obvious precautions one should use in the handling and measuring the nicotine any gross mishandling of any of the other ingredients is
completely inconsequential the only result being the possibility of coming out with a batch of bad tasting juice.
It is not hard to come up with multiple scenario's of all sorts of horrid things that "may" be happening
to the juice or getting in the juice. It's harder to realize this sort of thing simply is not happening.
People are careful. There are not vendors out there hiding in their garages and basements
making juice in unsanitary conditions. If they are in fact in their garages and basements they
have created a clean work environment to do so. The fact there hasn't been one single reported case
of any pathogen being spread in e-juice indicates to me someone is paying enough attention to care.

f anyone looked closely at any restaurant kitchen, you would never eat at ANY restaurant EVER AGAIN....please trust me on this.

I'm in the commercial real estate business, I've seen more restaurants than I care to remember. These are all "state or county inspected" operating restaurants all over the country, so filthy it would make you gag.

I have worked part time in a restaurant for over 30 years so I know of what you speak.
However until they start handling bloody meat,clean peel prep and cook vegetables,
prepare gravies soups and salads and baked goods along side of making juice I will
refrain from comparing commercial kitchens to any e-juice work area. One must consider
the nature of the beast.

Regards
Mike

 

[englishmick]

I seriously doubt any cross contamination would be in an amount that could possibly affect the outcome
of your recipe's in any measurable way. Aside from the obvious precautions one should use in the handling and measuring the nicotine any gross mishandling of any of the other ingredients is
completely inconsequential the only result being the possibility of coming out with a batch of bad tasting juice.
It is not hard to come up with multiple scenario's of all sorts of horrid things that "may" be happening
to the juice or getting in the juice. It's harder to realize this sort of thing simply is not happening.
People are careful. There are not vendors out there hiding in their garages and basements
making juice in unsanitary conditions. If they are in fact in their garages and basements they
have created a clean work environment to do so. The fact there hasn't been one single reported case
of any pathogen being spread in e-juice indicates to me someone is paying enough attention to care.

I have worked part time in a restaurant for over 30 years so I know of what you speak.
However until they start handling bloody meat,clean peel prep and cook vegetables,
prepare gravies soups and salads and baked goods along side of making juice I will
refrain from comparing commercial kitchens to any e-juice work area. One must consider
the nature of the beast.

Regards
Mike

I have to agree with what you said. People get sick all the time from eating in restaurants. Although I'm sure there are careless juice makers in B&M's just like there are careless cooks, people don't seem to be getting sick from juice. It's not something that would be happening and nobody noticed.

I guess the juice making process is pretty forgiving in terms of causing harm. Unless you share a workbench with someone who is mixing pesticides or doing mad chemistry experiments it would be hard to produce juice that would make people sick.