Ecta

[ChellyNelly]

No, Oriana, my post was not directed at any one particular person. It was in response to the people who asked about it as a whole. There is not any one particular incident that has occurred that I can say "this is what I mean". It is a culmination of certain folks' behaviour before ECTA was even a twinkle in someone's eye, my own personal experiences, and the poor way in which their entire agenda has been handled. I don't think anyone could say it better than Chinner (I'm paraphrasing here) in that arguing with and/or insulting the consumers is in very poor taste, considering the aim of the group.

I can understand your frustration, Oriana. My best suggestion is to read every thread you can find where ECTA is the main topic of discussion. You can also look the the Canvape threads if you'd like some examples of the insults thrown around by a certain vendor member, but I'm betting that the majority, if not all of them, have been deleted because they're in poor taste and against the rules of the forum.

 

[bornagainst]

ECTA is only in it for their own best interests, and not that of the consumer. Plain and simple. It's a business based model, and those needs will be addressed first and foremost. "Customer care and safety" is simply a mandatory sidebar and the cost of doing business.

 

[WolfeReign]

I am not a member of ECTA. I'm just a noob looking for a little clarity...

Ok, i was wrong then...heh heh now i will just have to yoink another of Chelly's jam samiches

 

[VIVAP2]

This is indeed a very interesting debate. The only thing I am regretting is hearing about people .....ing one to another. Not cool. Other than that, all of this doesn't deserve that much attention. What's wrong? Let them do the leg work and make it approved. This movement should be encouraged by all means. Members are to expensive for you? Don't buy it there, that'S all. I can't wait to see how the market will evoluate when this biz will be approved by HC. Companies buying one another? BT buying major players? Or BT only involved in entry level selling cheap KR808-nic disposables in corner stores along with existing companies selling specialties on the net? The deepest pockets (advertising) will make millions... no doubt.

 

[WolfeReign]

time to rear my furry ugly muzzle again....ECTA has a face book page? help! I have had a page up there since 2008, don't ask me how to run it......can someone point me in the direction of their link there? yeah i know i am not a very social person.....

 

[Katz123]

time to rear my furry ugly muzzle again....ECTA has a face book page? help! I have had a page up there since 2008, don't ask me how to run it......can someone point me in the direction of their link there? yeah i know i am not a very social person.....

https://www.facebook.com/groups/107871806005243/

 

[Toronnah]

My $0.02


ECTA is a trade association.


Guess what? The used car industry in Ontario has one too. Membership in that used car association does not prevent members for overcharging, selling lemons or bullying customers. Not a single person here feels that buying a used car is safe just because a dealer has a sticker of the glass door indicting membership.

 

[VapoX]

My $0.02


ECTA is a trade association.


Guess what? The used car industry in Ontario has one too. Membership in that used car association does not prevent members for overcharging, selling lemons or bullying customers. Not a single person here feels that buying a used car is safe just because a dealer has a sticker of the glass door indicting membership.

Yep. The ECTA is pointless, useless and a waste of time.

 

[fuzzione]

Yep. The ECTA is pointless, useless and a waste of time.

I don't agree with that. I feel the ECTA principles and stated goals are sound. It's the execution that concerns me and any possible hidden agendas. If ECTA succeeds in getting our gov't on side they'll be regarded as heros. If they blow it they'll be the scourge of everything that is vaping-related in Canada, should ECTA efforts prompt the gov't to come down hard on us. One way or the other ECTA appear intent on bringing the regulatory issues to the forefront with the gov't and it seems likely therefore that key issues will be decided.

Much will depend on the talent and skill sets of the individual directors and we have no information one way or the other if these people know what they're doing. Certainly Katherine's qualifications are impressive but she's 'only' a consultant. She can come up with the perfect solutions and still get kaboshed by the Board who may decide to go another way for one reason or another.

In the end much will depend on the quality of their legal advice, preparation and negotiation skills with government representatives. A lot can go wrong in between and it's always easy to blame your lawyer (or consultant) for bad advice.

I'm still keeping an open mind pending some indication of their tangible results, together with, hopefully, an improvement in their PR management.

 

[WolfeReign]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/107871806005243/

Thank you LOL that was super easy to do for facebook, i like that

 

[ChellyNelly]

Great post, Fuzz. You said it better than I ever could have.

Again I will say that I am in contact with one of the member vendors of ECTA who has been extremely open, honest, and respectful. If you have questions that you feel aren't be adequately answered here, I can direct you to him. I assure you that he will treat you like a human being and will not beat around the bush when answering your questions.

 

[talion]

I have to admit that my interest in this topic is growing, and I decided to further extend my inferrals from the discussions of yesterday. I decided that if I was to infer that a credible threat to my health existed, by virtue of a lack of regulation, then it only made sense to look to a regulated environment to purchase a safer product. ECITA and the UK have been raised as the example that ECTA would follow in order to ensure a safer working environment, and so I decided to have a look to the UK.

I was surprised to find that even allowing for currency conversions that there was a lot of product there that was quite reasonably priced, or even very well priced. I scanned through the ECITA site, and then I took a closer look at recommended UK suppliers from a UK based ecig site. I’m sure that the list is incomplete, and being relatively new to the arena I confess to knowing nothing about any of them, Totally Wicked being the only one that I’d ever heard of, so don’t jump on me for missing so-and-so or this-and-that. I’m already aware of my shortcomings.

With that being said I started looking over their product offerings, and then I started looking for ECITA affiliation. Of the 36 vendors listed as recommended, only 3 of them are actually affiliated with ECITA (Liberty Flights, Ecig Wizard and Liberro). ECITA lists 16 founding members, although I think some of them may be manufacturers as opposed to vendors. I’m not sure, and didn’t want to spend that much time looking. I thought it was interesting.

I have no doubt that there’s more UK vendors than Canadian ones, but it seems that the entry of a trade association with sanctioned memberships hasn’t really had the uptick you might expect given the ECTA discussions, although the influence would probably be greater with the smaller vendor number in Canada. Given that so few vendors in the grand UK scheme seem to be ECITA members it seems unlikely that it’s any safer for consumers based on the presence of ECITA, assuming the usual degree of law abiders/scofflaws, depending on the input/influence ECITA had in the creation of the laws themselves, if any. The prevailing laws would make it safer for consumers rather than the influence of the trade group.

I have a list of the recommended vendors, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to provide the names with links here in the forum, so I'll forego that for now. I can provide it by request if any of you are interested.

 

[fuzzione]

What I'd be interested in learning from ECTA is whether they also considered forming this organization with meaningful consumer representation also at the table. If they did, but decided it should remain an industry exclusive board in any event, what was their reasoning?

I'm raising this in the context of the CASAA model in the U.S. comprised of both consumer and industry representation vs. ECITA who are 100% industry reps. In fact, the CASAA model only allows 25% industry representation in order to maintain a certain status quo. Why was a more CASAA-like model not used instead?

While I realize our governmental and political landscape is different in Canada, would it not perhaps be more effective to approach the gov't with visible consumer advocacy on the side of these industry self regulation efforts? I think the lack of such a consumer element, whether unintentional or deliberate, may work against the initiative. Conversely, it's proper utilization just might be the thing that tips the scales in our favour (meaning both vendors and consumers).

 

[freakindahouse]

We are more than happy to answer any questions about ECTA, and/or the ECITA model, but we are not prepared to do so in this forum. Having already provided a considerable amount of information, only to have it ignored or rubbished, we are not inclined to continue in this forum.

Our facebook page is public, and has already been linked in this thread. We're more than happy to answer any questions you have there. Just 'like' the page and ask away. (And yes, I know it sucks that you have to 'like' the page, but such is the nature of facebook! *sigh* - and don't worry, you can always 'unlike' the page later if you want to!) Alternatively, anyone is welcome to email me at katherine.devlin@v-k-consulting.com, or pm me.

Thank you, and happy vaping, one and all.

Cheers,

Katherine

Thank you.

 

[ChellyNelly]

I've been told that some of the more people friendly members of ECTA are going to attempt to spend more time on the forums and answer questions/provide information. Good thing, considering that the person responsible for answering questions is now refusing to do so

 

[SoUnique]

I for one would love to see that happen.

Perhaps they should consider getting a spokesperson or PR person, I think that would help get rid of contridecting info.

 

[fuzzione]

I've been told that some of the more people friendly members of ECTA are going to attempt to spend more time on the forums and answer questions/provide information. Good thing, considering that the person responsible for answering questions is now refusing to do so

I think we need for that to happen.

 

[Chinner]

We are more than happy to answer any questions about ECTA, and/or the ECITA model, but we are not prepared to do so in this forum. Having already provided a considerable amount of information, only to have it ignored or rubbished, we are not inclined to continue in this forum.

Good idea. I mean there's only 90,000 members here, Hard to imagine how the support of all those people would have any impact on a thriving organization such as yours. Since you've made it quite clear you have no use for any of us, I suppose I should wish you guys well! Good luck doing whatever is is you're doing!

 

[talion]

ah, the controlled environment. It's ok to answer questions in one area but not in another, where the reactions can't be controlled. That's unfortunate, because the answers you gave me before have helped illuminate some of the altruistic actions you'd like your association to be involved in. If I pointed out any reasoning faults then those are things that surely can be worked on and improved in the messaging and in the processes. I truly like the message, but the actions seem to bely the stated objectives. I'd love to hear more, and truly believe that you should be further educating the people who you call your clients, as they are ultimately the foundation for the member businesses. I think they will serve to educate all of you as well.

If the spokesperson can't speak up then perhaps some of the more sociable people that chelly suggested could step forward? It seems silly to drive clients away from the member businesses and into the arms of others. This should be a positive step for everyone.

 

[talion]

I decided to take my earlier point and run with it. If we are all in agreement that it's better to be safe then it clearly makes sense to go with a vendor that has subscribed to an industry standard and maintains and policies itself to that standard (in theory). It is ECTA's stand that such companies are safer, and logic dictates that they are right. If that's true then it makes sense to be safe and buy from such a company until the industry is regulated in Canada. I decided I should have a look at the cost of being safe, and to that end I selected a vendor in the the UK at random from amongst those who are in ECITA, in this case Ecig Wizard. I matched them against five randomly chosen canadian suppliers ( I don't know who's in ECTA, but that doesn't matter for the purposes of this experiment). Those vendors were Vaporus, CapNicFit, CEV, Canada Vapes and Vapor Geek. I looked at the cost of buying 3 x 30ml of medium tobacco (as comparable as possible) and to purchase those bottles with no coupon reduction and at the lowest possible shipping price. The UK company, Ecig Wizard, was the cheapest of the bunch! It cost about $64 to purchase from them. Vaporus and Canada Vapes had very comparable prices, only a dollar or two off, and the others were considerably more expensive, being at least $75+

With proper shopping I'm sure that better deals could be had on either side, but the point of it is that ECTA was right, in that having a regulated business needn't necessarily cost more to consumers.

Interestingly, it also means that vapers who wish to be safer and buy from standardized vendors can do so for less than purchasing from Canadian vendors, as it currently stands. From a logical standpoint of both cost and safety it currently makes more sense to purchase from international vendors, based on this unscientific experiment.

Interesting, no?