Edition 2 Cartomizers and the Manufacturers Intent

[Quick1]

Disclaimer: I have NO opinion the cartomizers themselves. I've seen the reviews, I REALLY like the idea/concept, I'm not a fanatic about burning cartos, but they do taste really bad.

Please... lets not bang the FDA drum.

We all know we're worried about FDA bans and it looks like it is as much a control/political issue with the FDA as it is a health concern issue. And, naturally, it's a SUPER hot button around here.

They started out with "our design goal was to make it 'cleaner and less bacterial'" because "you wanted it". Tough to insert the FDA card into that. Even with translation problems. Let's assume that passing FDA was a concern. Does it have anything to do with bacterial contamination? That they removed the cotton so bacteria couldn't hide in it? (note: I think the common filler is polyfil and not cotton. I don't know that polyfil isn't antibacterial itself). I don't think the FDA has even mentioned (yet) any sort of concerns over cleanliness issues. It's all about controlled substances, drug delivery device, health concerns over chemicals in the juice. "Let's not forget the FDA thing? c'mon...

Fine. They appear to be desparately worried about negative publicity on their product introduction. I can understand that. They also appear to be pulling out any and all the stops to spin a less than stellar debut in a positive direction. I can understand that. (I think they should reassign their PR department, but that's just my opinion)

Give them another shot at it. Ask them very clearly if.
1) They really factored potential future FDA scrutiny into their design.
2) If they did, do they really think a key point for the FDA will be how sterile these things are?
3) They intentionally decided that no cotton filler would be a larger plus than reduced performance would be negative.

My guess is that they put a lot of effort, design, and development into coming up with an alternative cartomizer that addresses the "burning" issue and the bad taste issue. More power to them. Maybe it didn't work out so well due to the juice delivery mechanism. Jury is (sort of) still out on that.

But I think throwing the FDA card is a mistake. please...

 

[badkolo]

They made a mistake of throwing the FDA card for the reason you mentioned but also becuase of this.

DO you think the fda would pass a cartomizer with burning filler, NO they wouldnt.

So what makes anyone think they will pass these new E2 cartomizers which have a wick rapped around the atomizer which is burning away and turning black, so essentially your burning rope.

So they should know better then to use the fda card.
But i do applaud them for trying to make a better cartomizer.

I truly believe that in 1 months time someone here will figure out a solution to make these new cartomizers the best thing ever, everything scream that its just a wicking problem and if thats the case then it shouldn't take Einstein to figure out how to have these E2's wick better.

im not concerned about how much juice they hold since a bigger cartomizer can be made. if its not wicking with 1ml of juice then a 2ml carto wont help any. Im wondering if that white wick tube i see in some cartos would be a good wick, it looks like a small tine stray made of some fabric.

 

[naviathan]

Ok I understand where you're coming from and I see your point. I would like to note that the FDA position came up in a later conversation with a different person that I think had a better understanding than the others to begin with (both in the product and English). Regardless of whether or not it was an initial concern or just something to try and redirect the negative reviews so far I still think they're on the right track. The new design is, in my opinion, far and beyond better than everything I've seen so far. I'll see about getting a response on your questions. In the meant time though, lets at least give these guys some points for effort. It's more than we've seen out of other manufacturers.

 

[Mr.Stick]

But what about those of us who don't burn our cartos? Not really looking forward to "improved" cartos; I already have "improved" cartos. Did the world just go a little softer? I never saw why there was much of a fuss over a nail-head sized burn in a piece of filler in the first place, particularly when that burn is pretty easy to avoid. I suppose I will have to start hoarding Premiums...

 

[naviathan]

They made a mistake of throwing the FDA card for the reason you mentioned but also becuase of this.

DO you think the fda would pass a cartomizer with burning filler, NO they wouldnt.

So what makes anyone think they will pass these new E2 cartomizers which have a wick rapped around the atomizer which is burning away and turning black, so essentialy your burning rope.

So they should know better then to use the fda card.
But i do applaud them for trying to make a better cartomizer.

Ok, you're a bit behind here. All the carts and atties have the same wick material and coil setup. The difference here is the filler. The wick is made not to burn. The black you see on most is typically burnt juice from going dry.

 

[naviathan]

But what about those of us who don't burn our cartos? Not really looking forward to "improved" cartos; I already have "improved" cartos. Did the world just go a little softer? I never saw why there was much of a fuss over a nail-head sized burn in a piece of filler in the first place, particularly when that burn is pretty easy to avoid. I suppose I will have to start hoarding Premiums...

Horde away my friend. I'll anxiously await my Edition 2's and any further improvements that may come along in the future.

 

[zelda]

Actually all cartomizers are not made the same.

 

[badkolo]

Ok, you're a bit behind here. All the carts and atties have the same wick material and coil setup. The difference here is the filler. The wick is made not to burn. The black you see on most is typically burnt juice from going dry.

have you ever removed that wicking stringy material on a very used atty, its burnt and not just dark form juice. that cant be good for you or good for getting approval form fda.

im going to take a pic of this fabric tube wicking thing i see in my carto, it doesnt seem to brun and seems to wick well.

 

[5cardstud]

I've never had a burning issue except for using it at to high of a voltage. If they are used correctly cartos are great.

 

[Mr.Stick]

Horde away my friend. I'll anxiously await my Edition 2's and any further improvements that may come along in the future.

Maybe everyone can win, and the arrival of the new cartos will not bump the old ones off the face of the planet.

 

[Quick1]

Ok I understand where you're coming from and I see your point. I would like to note that the FDA position came up in a later conversation with a different person that I think had a better understanding than the others to begin with (both in the product and English). Regardless of whether or not it was an initial concern or just something to try and redirect the negative reviews so far I still think they're on the right track. The new design is, in my opinion, far and beyond better than everything I've seen so far. I'll see about getting a response on your questions. In the meant time though, lets at least give these guys some points for effort. It's more than we've seen out of other manufacturers.

The questions were more rhetorical than actual questions I wanted answers to. If you want to try to help them with their PR I'd suggest the following.

1) It's usually a really bad idea to engage the masses on a micro level. One or a number of bad reviews, blown up channel partner deals, is probably not going to make any difference to their success or failure at all.
2) They should just stick with pointing out what they believe to be the functional advantages, usability advantages, quality advantages to their design and manufacture, if any.
3) Do a really good job of a polished presentation of #2 above. It should look/read like a polished product brochure. Put that out there ONCE (and on their website). and let things sort out how they will.

Do NOT run around trying to counter each and every negative someone comes up with. Do not try to counter anything at all. If they do see a shortcoming that they are going to address then they might respond to that with "we are working on an enhancement to address/improve [whatever]" . ...I doubt they'd do that since I get the impression they have way too much invested in the current release... Probably just better to implement and phase it in later without saying anything until then.

And don't alienate their customer base with made up (or seemingly so) stuff.

I could be COMPLETELY wrong but I read:
"You were worried about your health so we made it anti-bacterial and cleaner"
"We made it anti-bacterial to satisify the FDA in the future"
as a misguided PR spin on engineering's goal of
"We can address the burning/melting filler by not having a filler"
"We can address foul tasts by not having a filler"

I really like the concept. It appears to be a hybrid atomizer/cartomizer in an attempt to address the shortcomings of both -- fillers in cartomizers, capacity and juice delivery to the coil in atomizers.

 

[Shaka]

1. No burning.
2. Easily refillable.
3. High capacity.
4. Long life.

From what I know about cartomizers, cartridges still meet those criteria better.

Actually Cozzi, many cartos are just as easily refillable and have WAY higher capacity than carts (except the mega). 1 & 2 definitely in favor of carts. A former cartos hold-out like you because of the burning issue, got hooked on the convenience after trying one. But I chuck mine after 1-2 days use...even if still working fine.

Thank you for the input. I believe this company is on the right track with their thinking, and believe it to be just a matter of time until they improve upon these.

I quoted the part I did because I believe that while true to extent, that people would pay more for what they want, thus negating the money market comment. For instance if a carto lasted like an atty but was a great performing carto I'd pay $25 if on average they lasted a month.

+1
OP thanks for starting this great thread. As ZB said, the company should be applauded for their innovation in trying to resolve the Achilles Heel of cartos...they just need to refine the design and work out the bugs.

The $25 figure is OK with me too, as I'll probably be going thru 15 cartos a month (@ $1.79 ea = $26.85)...but that's because I refuse to stretch the life of my cartos. But with the current mindset, don't think this price would be accepted by the masses.

I've been trying to raise the red flags, get shut down every time...most users aren't concerned about the dangers and try to squeeze maximum use out of their <$2 item...dozens of refills, over a month of use, etc., even trying to replace the filler. IMO, a $25 carto to these people would be a lead balloon, unfortunately.

 

[zoiDman]

What I don't understand is I have 510 cartos that work fine.

They don't have funny tastes when I use them. They last about 1/2 of the day without refilling. They can be refilled without a syringe in about 60 seconds. And they are very reasonably priced.

Why should I try CE2 Cartomizers?

And after all the problems I have heard about them, the answer is to vape slower? Or to change from the juice I like and works well in my current cartos to a juice that wicks better?

I think I'll wait untill a few more of the bugs are worked out of these CE2 cartos before I try them.

 

[naviathan]

The questions were more rhetorical than actual questions I wanted answers to. If you want to try to help them with their PR I'd suggest the following.

1) It's usually a really bad idea to engage the masses on a micro level. One or a number of bad reviews, blown up channel partner deals, is probably not going to make any difference to their success or failure at all.
2) They should just stick with pointing out what they believe to be the functional advantages, usability advantages, quality advantages to their design and manufacture, if any.
3) Do a really good job of a polished presentation of #2 above. It should look/read like a polished product brochure. Put that out there ONCE (and on their website). and let things sort out how they will.

Do NOT run around trying to counter each and every negative someone comes up with. Do not try to counter anything at all. If they do see a shortcoming that they are going to address then they might respond to that with "we are working on an enhancement to address/improve [whatever]" . ...I doubt they'd do that since I get the impression they have way too much invested in the current release... Probably just better to implement and phase it in later without saying anything until then.

And don't alienate their customer base with made up (or seemingly so) stuff.

I could be COMPLETELY wrong but I read:
"You were worried about your health so we made it anti-bacterial and cleaner"
"We made it anti-bacterial to satisify the FDA in the future"
as a misguided PR spin on engineering's goal of
"We can address the burning/melting filler by not having a filler"
"We can address foul tasts by not having a filler"

I really like the concept. It appears to be a hybrid atomizer/cartomizer in an attempt to address the shortcomings of both -- fillers in cartomizers, capacity and juice delivery to the coil in atomizers.

You're right, and I think they're learning this through this experience. One thing we should probably keep in mind is that the US does business in a far different way than EurAsia. We're far more outspoken and in touch than most others so our reactions on here probably served as both a shock and a learning point for this manufacturer/retailer. In any case, it's good to see we're all in the same mindset for the most part here; we like the concept, needs some fine tuning though. I for one look forward to it.

 

[mister kil]

It'd help it they sent them with a needle or used a different filling method, Imho they should make both caps one piece and just let you drip refill.

 

[naviathan]

It'd help it they sent them with a needle or used a different filling method, Imho they should make both caps one piece and just let you drip refill.

Ahhh, good request. I'm going to ask this one.

 

[mister kil]

Ahhh, good request. I'm going to ask this one.

Great, I'd love the proper contact info to make suggestions to them as well, they seem to have a really hot lip hit so if the end were extended out a bit like a drip tip that would help as well, heck then you could use it both ways.

 

[Shaka]

What I don't understand is I have 510 cartos that work fine.

They don't have funny tastes when I use them. They last about 1/2 of the day without refilling. They can be refilled without a syringe in about 60 seconds. And they are very reasonably priced.

Why should I try CE2 Cartomizers?

And after all the problems I have heard about them, the answer is to vape slower? Or to change from the juice I like and works well in my current cartos to a juice that wicks better?

I think I'll wait untill a few more of the bugs are worked out of these CE2 cartos before I try them.

Agree with you on every point zD, including your conclusion. But I know you have some concerns about what's going on inside your carto. I say this because I read with much interest your older threads about your stainless steel cart mod as an attempt to get away from the plastic cart filler...and carts never get as hot as the environment inside the cartos.

Like ZBass, I dissected one of my cartos that was kept wet at all times, never abused, and still tasted like new after about 3ml of refills...there were no obvious burns, but definitely signs of heat stress and breakdown...and this after only 2 days of careful use! I can only imagine what it would look like after a week or two of use.

Plastics in microwaves don't have to burn, or even get near melting to leach chemicals into food...just needs to be at a higher temperature than they were designed for. Polyfil was designed as batting and filling for comforters, pillows, etc...not the oven hot temps inside cartos. Regardless of whether you think you're burning them or not (taste is not an absolute guide), the filler is breaking down, and for the less knowledgeable new user, the risk is even greater.

I too will wait for the improvements, but this company is definitely on the right track. Sorry to piggyback on your post zD, and I really agree with you, but it gave me an opportunity to jump on my soapbox.

 

[Quick1]

Plastics in microwaves don't have to burn, or even get near melting to leach chemicals into food...just needs to be at a higher temperature than they were designed for. Polyfil was designed as batting and filling for comforters, pillows, etc...not the oven hot temps inside cartos. Regardless of whether you think you're burning them or not (taste is not an absolute guide), the filler is breaking down, and for the less knowledgeable new user, the risk is even greater.

I too will wait for the improvements, but this company is definitely on the right track. Sorry to piggyback on your post zD, and I really agree with you, but it gave me an opportunity to jump on my soapbox.

Care to elaborate on that part? What gasses/chemicals are being emitted and roughly in what quantities (significant amount or not)?

 

[Craymar]

The way I see it as far as the FDA goes is not get them involved at all. Cigarettes are not FDA approved and never will be. The Manufacture is right in taking steps to make a cartomizer that does not burn the filler material and is clean as possible. Not being approved is one thing but being labeled as dangerous to your health would cause serious problems for e-cigs.

charles