email I got from the FDA

[paise]

SLDS: I wish there was some way I could put 5 stars by your post. It's such commonsense that anyone can get it, or rather anyone SHOULD get it. It's not complicated one bit.

With regards to the cruise ships, why do people think they are registered in other countries and the gambling doesn't start until the ship reaches international waters? It's because gambling is legal on a ship in international waters. There's at least one, probably more that leave out of the port at Wilmington NC that have gambling and drinking that goes just into international waters for several hours so the guests can gamble and drink and have fun then they come back to port.

My 21yo, almost 22yo went out on the ship when she was 18yo but not to drink or gamble. There's a deck for the 18yo crowd where there is dancing and appetizers. She and her friends from graduation had their graduation party on the ship. Some parents went as did the principal so everything was kosher. I even heard that a few parents switched off to go down to gamble a bit before switching out with other parents though none of them drank b/c they wanted to keep the good example of what they wanted the kids to do after graduation. I'm so grateful they did such a thing for the graduates. The number of graduates that die each year because of after graduation parties where alcohol and drugs are available is staggering. It's like these kids made it all the way through to one of the biggest milestones of their lives only to die because of stupidity and never get the chance for all those milestones that would have come later.

 

[dopebeat]

Suppliers *should* know exactly what ingredients are in what they are importing.
PV's don't need to be monitored, the liquid should be.

Should is the whole point, at the moment anyone can sell and I don't see your problem in forcing them all to know. And yes it is the liquid that should be monitored.

1) Gambling sites do it because....... you can't use them in the United States! Yay..... truth!

Gambling sites do this all over the world, they do not need to store any information other than that you have verified that you are over 18.

 

[SLDS181]

Should is the whole point, at the moment anyone can sell and I don't see your problem in forcing them all to know. And yes it is the liquid that should be monitored.

The places I've been buying my juice from all do know, American companies holding themselves to American standards and regulations. So..... I'm not following the issue from you here. You're saying that suppliers don't know... and I'm telling you that the only suppliers I've purchased from.... do.

So they should know. And as far as I know, they all do.

Again, whats the problem?

Gambling sites do this all over the world, they do not need to store any information other than that you have verified that you are over 18.

I was answering why the ones that do ask for it, ask for it. Now you're just being argumentative.

 

[dopebeat]

The places I've been buying my juice from all do know, American companies holding themselves to American standards and regulations. So..... I'm not following the issue from you here. You're saying that suppliers don't know... and I'm telling you that the only suppliers I've purchased from.... do.

So they should know. And as far as I know, they all do.

Again, whats the problem?

'In one sample, the FDA’s analyses detected diethylene glycol, a chemical used in antifreeze that is toxic to humans, and in several other samples, the FDA analyses detected carcinogens, including nitrosamines. FDA also found varying levels of nicotine in cartridges labeled as containing the same level of nicotine as well as the presence of nicotine in cartridges labeled as containing no nicotine.'

That is the problem.

I was answering why the ones that do ask for it, ask for it. Now you're just being argumentative.

They've been asking for it since way before any American ban.

But seriously, why are you arguing against age restriction and tighter controls on the suppliers of these products? Surely you must see that even one company selling liquid that contains unneccesarily dangerous or even mislabelled liquid is damaging for all and that if suppliers made an unforced effort to stop children from buying them the bs arguments about being marketed at children would hold less water.

 

[SLDS181]

'In one sample, the FDA’s analyses detected diethylene glycol, a chemical used in antifreeze that is toxic to humans, and in several other samples, the FDA analyses detected carcinogens, including nitrosamines. FDA also found varying levels of nicotine in cartridges labeled as containing the same level of nicotine as well as the presence of nicotine in cartridges labeled as containing no nicotine.'

That is the problem.

Ok, lets break this down.

DEG is present in your food. I'm serious. Want to know why? Its a biproduct of the preparation of propylene glycol in the manufacturing process. The FDA allows a percentage to be present, based on the amount of PG, in anything you ingest. So detecting DEG is a meaningless statement.

The nitrosamines are a direct biproduct of getting nicotine from tobacco.

The varying levels are, I would guess, from settling. Products like these are made in high batches, so a measure is taken by volume. Look at what any bottle of alcohol says "x% alcohol by volume".

The 0mg nic liquids they tested are measured as...... 0mg nic! Not no nicotine, or nicotine free. Again, if you can show me something different.... be my guest. No manufacturers I have bought from say that.

Also, the suppliers we use are more responsible, doing independent lab reports, wouldn't you say?

They've been asking for it since way before any American ban.

Everything that happens now is before a ban.... since they aren't banned. So.... yeah.

But seriously, why are you arguing against age restriction and tighter controls on the suppliers of these products? Surely you must see that even one company selling liquid that contains unneccesarily dangerous or even mislabelled liquid is damaging for all.

I'm not arguing against age restriction, I'm arguing against stupidity in the name of age restriction. Putting sensitive information over the internet is a pretty stupid idea. Using a credit card as age verification is useless.

Confirming age by popup is actually responsible.

The suppliers should be held to the same standards as other similar products, not more. Current FDA standards rely on the manufacturers to ensure the product is as labeled. I don't want more than that, because more than that means it being more costly, potentially to the point where some people would find it less expensive to continue smoking. I support a greater public health.

Your statements are full of conjecture, and are ignoring facts. I asked you what "unknown" is in the liquid you are concerned about. You still haven't given me one. They are all known, aren't they?

 

[hxj]

The places I've been buying my juice from all do know, American companies holding themselves to American standards and regulations. So..... I'm not following the issue from you here. You're saying that suppliers don't know... and I'm telling you that the only suppliers I've purchased from.... do.

So they should know. And as far as I know, they all do.

All of them? You're far more trusting than I am, though I freely admit that I'm not all that trusting at all. To me, it is a little sketchy that no one has to list e-liquid ingredients, and in fact I did have an issue with my first e-liquid which I felt was either contaminated with a higher-strength batch or just outright mislabeled. When the only indication of the nic strength on a cart or bottle is a little sticker slapped on, that doesn't inspire confidence in me. So I wasn't terribly surprised to hear that the FDA found a fair variance in nic strength in carts that were all supposed to be one strength, and a supposed zero-nic cart that had nicotine in it.

I'd love it if I could trust every liquid from every manufacturer all over the world, and trust that every manufacturer was taking responsibility for the quality of its product, but if I were that trusting, I'd probably be dead by now.

Right now, I mostly trust Johnson Creek, because they list their ingredients and source them in the U.S. where I believe there are tighter quality controls on the production of the base chemicals. I also trust Intellicig's ECOpure, made in the UK and tested by a local university lab, though I'm still awaiting my first shipment-- ironically enough, because of a quality control problem and tainted liquid.

You're saying that the suppliers YOU'VE purchased from know exactly what's in their liquid, and that may well be true, but not obviously not everyone's going to buy from the same suppliers you've researched and trust. I, for one, would love it if I could feel more confident about what's in the liquids out there for anyone to buy, just as I'm very happy that in this country I know that I can check the label on any grocery item and see what's in it. If anything, I'm more paranoid about something I'm heating up, vaporizing, and inhaling than something I'm eating.

Incidentally, if you wouldn't mind sharing, which suppliers do you trust and buy liquid from?

 

[dopebeat]

Ok, lets break this down.

DEG is present in your food. I'm serious. Want to know why? Its a biproduct of the preparation of propylene glycol in the manufacturing process. The FDA allows a percentage to be present, based on the amount of PG, in anything you ingest. So detecting DEG is a meaningless statement.

The nitrosamines are a direct biproduct of getting nicotine from tobacco.

The varying levels are, I would guess, from settling. Products like these are made in high batches, so a measure is taken by volume. Look at what any bottle of alcohol says "x% alcohol by volume".

The 0mg nic liquids they tested are measured as...... 0mg nic! Not no nicotine, or nicotine free. Again, if you can show me something different.... be my guest. No manufacturers I have bought from say that.

Also, the suppliers we use are more responsible, doing independent lab reports, wouldn't you say?



Everything that happens now is before a ban.... since they aren't banned. So.... yeah.



I'm not arguing against age restriction, I'm arguing against stupidity in the name of age restriction. Putting sensitive information over the internet is a pretty stupid idea. Using a credit card as age verification is useless.

Confirming age by popup is actually responsible.

The suppliers should be held to the same standards as other similar products, not more. Current FDA standards rely on the manufacturers to ensure the product is as labeled. I don't want more than that, because more than that means it being more costly, potentially to the point where some people would find it less expensive to continue smoking. I support a greater public health.

Your statements are full of conjecture, and are ignoring facts. I asked you what "unknown" is in the liquid you are concerned about. You still haven't given me one. They are all known, aren't they?

Sorry but you trust our suppliers to do independent lab test of our liquid, but you wouldn't trust them with a copy of your passport?

And varying nicotine levels due to settling? You mean that they don't bother to shake the liquid before preparing the carts. You aren't selling this image of all suppliers being responsible ethical Americans to me.

The parallels to the ....... trade and bootleg liquor are there, proper controls can only benefit the industry and make it even safer for everybody.

 

[SLDS181]

All of them?

I said "As far as I know." I haven't bought from China.

You're far more trusting than I am, though I freely admit that I'm not all that trusting at all.

Neither am I - which is why I ordered from places I felt I could trust, which I looked into what they've posted, including ingredients.

I'd love it if I could trust every liquid from every manufacturer all over the world, and trust that every manufacturer was taking responsibility for the quality of its product, but if I were that trusting, I'd probably be dead by now.

You'd be buying dollar store toothpaste if you were that trusting - which, if you remember that fiasco, had ALOT of DEG in it. It was perfectly labeled, listing the ingredients.... it just wasn't accurate.

Like I said, as far as I know. Also, trustworthy sources.

Toothpaste is not currently blocked at the border by customs, is it? Its not practical to do that, the quantity is too significant. Instead, we wait to find out if there is an issue, and investigate - and hold the company responsible.

Gotta keep reality involved, what is feasible to do, and what is not.

I'm very happy that in this country I know that I can check the label on any grocery item and see what's in it. If anything, I'm more paranoid about something I'm heating up, vaporizing, and inhaling than something I'm eating.

You shouldn't be - they are all equally deadly, as I mentioned with toothpaste, which you can check the label on and "see" whats in it. Whether or not its accurate is a different matter altogether....

Incidentally, if you wouldn't mind sharing, which suppliers do you trust and buy liquid from?

Actually, likely the same as you. I've bought from TW, JC, and Intellicig (via Innovapor) so far.

 

[SLDS181]

Sorry but you trust our suppliers to do independent lab test of our liquid, but you wouldn't trust them with a copy of your passport?

Exactly. Lab tests are reports.

A copy of my passport is my personal information which could be stolen. If a lab report is stolen, who cares?

To understand, I am a paranoid person. My passport is kept within a passport wallet which blocks RFID signals (my passport is newer, with a chip), because I'm wary of people with an active RFID reader picking up the signal.

And varying nicotine levels due to settling? You mean that they don't bother to shake the liquid before preparing the carts. You aren't selling this image of all suppliers being responsible ethical Americans to me.

Suppliers? I'm talking about at manufacture. A few hundred liters vs. a few ml.... you'll get minor variation. Apply a little common sense here. 15mg vs 16mg is minor.

Show me 65mg instead of 36 and you've got an issue.

If this is too complicated a concept, please, let me know. I'll break it down further.

The parallels to the ....... trade and bootleg liquor are there, proper controls can only benefit the industry and make it even safer for everybody.

....... safer for everyone? Yeah.....

Silly. Stop it.

 

[hxj]

The 0mg nic liquids they tested are measured as...... 0mg nic! Not no nicotine, or nicotine free. Again, if you can show me something different.... be my guest. No manufacturers I have bought from say that.

That's an interesting point, I hadn't considered that. But I can tell you that there are manufacturers out there selling liquid as "non-nicotine," not "0 mg nicotine" (which, while technically correct, is still misleading to someone wanting something nicotine-free-- although food labeling does that too, with the "0 grams of fat," etc.).

One of the most visible e-cig sellers, blu, lists their options for liquid strength as "Full Flavored," "Light," "Ultra-Light," and "Non-Nicotine." Whatever you may think of blu or their products, it's clear that they have several customers (and many more ex-customers) here at ECF. May be moot, since no one's tested their carts as far as I know, but I definitely vaped a blu cart whose box was labeled "NO" and felt head rushes, hot flashes, sudden sweats, and symptoms of nic hangover hours later. Now, my nicotine exposure has been weaned down to zero over several years, so it's possible that it wouldn't take very much nicotine at all to cause that reaction in me, and hell, it may have even been caused by a reaction to some other ingredient in the liquid, I don't know. But it felt like a nic hit from a "Non-Nicotine" cartridge, and that's when I switched to Johnson Creek, who don't even use any tobacco-derived ingredients anymore.

A quick trip around the web shows that Intellicig and InnoVapor both sell ECOpure as "Zero-- Nicotine-free" (although InnoVapor clarifies with "0mg/ml"), Good Prophets sells "0mg Liquid - NO nic," NJOY sells carts as "NONE (zero nicotine)," and Smoking Everywhere sells "Non (0mg Nicotine)." No fine print about how "less than half of 1 mg per ml counts as zero" or whatever, as on the back of a bag of chips.

 

[hxj]

....... safer for everyone? Yeah.....

Silly. Stop it.

I didn't say those things. Please edit your post to fix your attributions. Thanks.

 

[dopebeat]

Exactly. Lab tests are reports.

A copy of my passport is my personal information which could be stolen. If a lab report is stolen, who cares?

To understand, I am a paranoid person. My passport is kept within a passport wallet which blocks RFID signals (my passport is newer, with a chip), because I'm wary of people with an active RFID reader picking up the signal.



Suppliers? I'm talking about at manufacture. A few hundred liters vs. a few ml.... you'll get minor variation. Apply a little common sense here. 15mg vs 16mg is minor.

Show me 65mg instead of 36 and you've got an issue.

If this is too complicated a concept, please, let me know. I'll break it down further.



....... safer for everyone? Yeah.....

Silly. Stop it.

The true parallel is 'If a lab report is done, who cares.'

Does the mere mention of the word ....... get you flustered, I didn't say ....... should be made safer for everyone merely pointed out that because it is unregulated users can not tell what they are using and have to place their trust in middle men who neither know or care about how it was made.

 

[SLDS181]

A quick trip around the web shows that Intellicig and InnoVapor both sell ECOpure as "Zero-- Nicotine-free" (although InnoVapor clarifies with "0mg/ml"), Good Prophets sells "0mg Liquid - NO nic," NJOY sells carts as "NONE (zero nicotine)," and Smoking Everywhere sells "Non (0mg Nicotine)." No fine print about how "less than half of 1 mg per ml counts as zero" or whatever, as on the back of a bag of chips.

See, I add the fine print myself

And blu... I have no idea, and yeah, it could've been something else in there bothering you - only tests can say for sure.

 

[SLDS181]

I didn't say those things. Please edit your post to fix your attributions. Thanks.

Doh! Copy/paste mistake.

Fixed

 

[SLDS181]

The true parallel is 'If a lab report is done, who cares.'

Ummm.... what?

Seriously, if you're going to argue just to argue, you're going to look stupid.

If you have a real concern, say what it is.

If you're wrong, accept it, and move on.

 

[dopebeat]

Ummm.... what?

Seriously, if you're going to argue just to argue, you're going to look stupid.

If you have a real concern, say what it is.

If you're wrong, accept it, and move on.

Arguing with idiots does that too. Guess I'll learn, good luck to you.

 

[SLDS181]

Arguing with idiots does that too. Guess I'll learn, good luck to you.

I harp on crappy information. Even if I look like an idiot for belaboring the point, I still hate crappy information.

*shrug*

I don't mind looking like an idiot to get accurate information out there.

 

[dopebeat]

I harp on crappy information. Even if I look like an idiot for belaboring the point, I still hate crappy information.

*shrug*

I don't mind looking like an idiot to get accurate information out there.

Then I'd check your TW bottle. Next to Made in, you may well find, China. But I'm glad everyone thoroughly researches who they buy from and where there liquid is coming from.

 

[SLDS181]

Then I'd check your TW bottle. Next to Made in, you may well find, China. But I'm glad everyone thoroughly researches who they buy from and where there liquid is coming from.

I trust them as a supplier, I didn't say they manufactured their liquid. I also have batteries from china, and electronics. I don't expect them to blow up either. Because the I trust the companies that use those Chinese products. Are you following me?

 

[ProtoType]

Hey SLDS to add to your comment concerning hijackers (hackers) obtaining stored data from companies....

In the latest indictment, handed down by a federal grand jury in New Jersey, Gonzalez and two accomplices were charged with running an international scheme to steal more than 130 million credit and debit card numbers, as well as personal identifying information from five companies, including Heartland Payment Systems Inc., 7-Eleven Inc. and Hannaford Bros. Co.

Hacking kingpin negotiating plea deal with feds( - Security - Government )