Emily's Post - The Saga Continues

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rothenbj

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Kristin, if I ever get in a p....ing contest, I want you watching my back. I just got finished posting something in the comment section that I had started two days ago, but left sit until today. After posting I was able to go back and find all the new comments since I started. You were hitting home runs, whether they will acknowledge or not.

I just wanted to make a note of what Carol (I think that was her first name) was stating. Although she is really on the far end of the continuum between antis and pro-smokers, she did make a very interesting point. The number of smokers is decreasing, the number of places people can be influenced by second hand smoke have been dropping constantly, but the number of people effected by health problems blamed on second hand smoke keeps increasing.

Now there can be a case made for the fact that these instances are showing up now from years of "second hand smoke" exposure. However, if that were true, the numbers should still be dropping. In 1980, the smoking rate was still 33%, going up to 42% back in 1965. We started hearing about the evils of second hand smoke in the mid-80's so they must have been tracking "incidences" for decades now.

Considering that many more people would have been exposed for years from the 60's through the 80's, wouldn't we be seeing a decrease in the number of instances at this point, rather than watching these numbers get larger every year? Carol may be a bit over the edge on the topic, but some of her points did make some sense to me.
 

kristin

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Thanks, Roth! It does seem that Mr. Smith is glossing over my posts now - he just doesn't have any answers! ;)

I know what you are saying about second-hand smoke (and the so-called third-hand). I can;t imagine that it's exactly healthy for bystanders, but I do doubt that it has as great an impact as the antis want people to believe. They're even claiming that only 30 minutes exposure can cause a non-smoker to drop dead from a heart attack!

I can't really side with her about smoking though. Any smoker would be lying if they said it didn't effect them negatively in any way and the link to cancer and other serious health issues has been pretty firmly documented. Some of it is still overblown to further the anti agenda, but it's there nonetheless.
 

lonercom

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Kristin, if I ever get in a p....ing contest, I want you watching my back. I just got finished posting something in the comment section that I had started two days ago, but left sit until today. After posting I was able to go back and find all the new comments since I started. You were hitting home runs, whether they will acknowledge or not.

I just wanted to make a note of what Carol (I think that was her first name) was stating. Although she is really on the far end of the continuum between antis and pro-smokers, she did make a very interesting point. The number of smokers is decreasing, the number of places people can be influenced by second hand smoke have been dropping constantly, but the number of people effected by health problems blamed on second hand smoke keeps increasing.

Now there can be a case made for the fact that these instances are showing up now from years of "second hand smoke" exposure. However, if that were true, the numbers should still be dropping. In 1980, the smoking rate was still 33%, going up to 42% back in 1965. We started hearing about the evils of second hand smoke in the mid-80's so they must have been tracking "incidences" for decades now.

Considering that many more people would have been exposed for years from the 60's through the 80's, wouldn't we be seeing a decrease in the number of instances at this point, rather than watching these numbers get larger every year? Carol may be a bit over the edge on the topic, but some of her points did make some sense to me.

I agree with those conclusions. Google the newest threat "Third Hand Smoke"
 

DC2

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Some of your best work Kristen.
:thumb:

I was moved to register so I could post in support of the following...
--The fact that the CASAA board was voted for, not appointed
--The fact that Jason Smith is an ignorant douche

But alas, I selected the wrong registration option.

I must have accidentally picked the option for being born before 1997 or something.
Because I got an email with a form I had to fill out, have my parents sign, and mail in.

So yeah, I won't be commenting.
Which might be for the best.
:D
 

Drozd

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Some of your best work Kristen.
:thumb:

I was moved to register so I could post in support of the following...
--The fact that the CASAA board was voted for, not appointed
--The fact that Jason Smith is an ignorant douche

But alas, I selected the wrong registration option.

I must have accidentally picked the option for being born before 1997 or something.
Because I got an email with a form I had to fill out, have my parents sign, and mail in.

So yeah, I won't be commenting.
Which might be for the best.
:D

Lol ...you need your parent's consent....now that's hilarious
 

rothenbj

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Some of your best work Kristen.
:thumb:

I was moved to register so I could post in support of the following...
--The fact that the CASAA board was voted for, not appointed
--The fact that Jason Smith is an ignorant douche

But alas, I selected the wrong registration option.

I must have accidentally picked the option for being born before 1997....
:D

Darn it DC, I never would have thought a 13 year old would post so often on this forum. Your mother better not catch you. :p
On the SHS topic I brought up a bit ago, I stumbled upon the following comment made on an article about the smoking/e-cig/tobacco/nicotine (other than BP brand) ban at the University of Florida. I didn't know about the 100 plus year earlier ban in the US. Interesting reading-

The new Tobacco Prohibition
I would like to take the time to tell the entire community about a falsehood so big that everyone who believes in freedom should be appauled.
This falsehood is so big it resonates from historical fact forward to this day. This falsehood is so big billions of dollars have been spent to make it believable to those of us who dont take the time to look up the facts.
We all remember reading about alcohol prohibition,but did you know there was also tobacco prohibition going on before alcohol became such a target of the last nanny staters.
Our great grandparents lived thru prohibition and the great depression,they also lived thru tobacco prohibition.
Heres a time line starting in 1900,dont be surprised to see the same thing playing out today nearly 100 years later.
1901: REGULATION: Strong anti-cigarette activity in 43 of the 45 states. "Only Wyoming and Louisiana had paid no attention to the cigarette controversy, while the other forty-three states either already had anti-cigarette laws on the books or were considering new or tougher anti-cigarette laws, or were the scenes of heavy anti- cigarette activity" (Dillow, 1981:10).
1904: New York: A judge sends a woman is sent to jail for 30 days for smoking in front of her children.
1904: New York City. A woman is arrested for smoking a cigarette in an automobile. "You can't do that on Fifth Avenue," the arresting officer says.
1907: Business owners are refusing to hire smokers. On August 8, the New York Times writes: "Business ... is doing what all the anti-cigarette specialists could not do."
1917: SMOKEFREE: Tobacco control laws have fallen, including smoking bans in numerous cities, and the states of Arkansas, Iowa, Idaho and Tennessee.
1937: hitler institutes laws against smoking.This one you can google.
Now onto the falsehood......
We have been told for years by smoke free advocates that second hand smoke is the cause of everything from johnnys ear ache to cousin ED'S lung cancer. But wheres the proof!!!
Remember they claim 50,000 deaths a year yet,there are no bodys not even mass graves of the dead to second hand smoke.We await the names of these victims.
A simple stroll down historys road say 10 years or so and we start to get at the truth......

A federal Judge by the name of osteen got a case dropped in his lap in North Carolina,the case was that of EPA'S study on second hand smoke/environmental tobacco smoke.The judge an anti-tobbaco judge by reputation spent 4 years going thru the study and interviewing scientists at EPA and came to the conclusion :

JUNK SCIENCE
''EPA's 1992 conclusions are not supported by reliable scientific evidence. The report has been largely discredited and, in 1998, was legally vacated by a federal judge.Before its 1992 report, EPA had always used epidemiology's gold standard CI of 95 percent to measure statistical significance. But because the U.S. studies chosen[cherry picked] for the report were not statistically significant within a 95 percent CI, for the first time in its history EPA changed the rules and used a 90 percent CI, which doubled the chance of being wrong.
This allowed it to report a statistically significant 19 percent increase [a 1.19rr] of lung cancer cases in the nonsmoking spouses of smokers over those cases found in nonsmoking spouses of nonsmokers. Even though the RR was only 1.19--an amount far short of what is normally required to demonstrate correlation or causality--the agency concluded this was proof SHS increased the risk of U.S. nonsmokers developing lung cancer by 19 percent.''
The EPA fought to have Osteen's decision overturned on technical grounds, ignoring the multitude of facts in the decision. They succeeded in 2002 on the narrowest of technicalities. The fourth circuit court of appeals ruled that because the report was not an official policy document Osteen's court did not have jurisdiction. In their appeal the EPA did not answer a single criticism in the 92 page report, nor challenge a single fact put forth by Judge Osteen. Not one.
Although the anti-smoker movement was already established, this report was used, and continues to be used, to bolster their claim that SHS is a killer.
Second Hand Smoke - a knol by Dave Hitt #
So here we find that second hand smoke was made a political scapegoat by EPA.Lets not forget how EPA has reworked the global warming studys just this last summer. Where its top scientists paper was rebuked because it didnt carry the EPA'S stand that global warming was real.
The political shenanigans surrounding SHS/ETS go deep not only with the government and its health agencies but also to the big pharmaceutical companies and non-profit orginizations aka ACS,ALA,AHA and a meriad of others. All lobbying for smoking bans and their weapon of choise Propaganda paid for by big pharma and tax dollars. Studys made to order that second hand smoke is deadly. Take a memory note here too,over 250 studys on shs/ets have found it safe.
Yet a simple look at the chemistry shows us that its:
About 90% of secondary smoke is composed of water vapor and ordinary air with a minor amount of carbon dioxide. The volume of water vapor of second hand smoke becomes even larger as it qickly disperses into the air,depending upon the humidity factors within a set location indoors or outdoors. Exhaled smoke from a smoker will provide 20% more water vapor to the smoke as it exists the smokers mouth.
4 % is carbon monoxide.
6 % is those supposed 4,000 chemicals to be found in tobacco smoke. Unfortunatley for the smoke free advocates these supposed chemicals are more theorized than actually found.What is found is so small to even call them threats to humans is beyond belief.Nanograms,picograms and femptograms......
(1989 Report of the Surgeon General p. 80).

Now, how odd that when we search the smoke free activists sites not one of them mentions that water vapor and air are the main components of second hand smoke. Is this just a fluke or an outright omission to further their political healthscare against the general public.
The last informative tid bit I have for you is what does OSHA have to say about all this secondhand smoke stuff.
Here is where it gets interesting,it seems John Banzhaf, founder and president of Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) decided to sue OSHA to make a rule on shs/ets not that OSHA didnt want to play ball with him,its just that the scientific facts didnt back up a rule to start with.
Now for a rule to happen Osha has to send out for comments for a period of time and boy did the comments fly in, over 40,000 of them....Osha has whats called PEL'S and limits for an 8 hour period of exposure to chemicals in indoor environments...[epa is in charge of outdoor air]some smoke free groups have tried to use 30 minute air samples using epa monitoring to create a air borne healthscare.
The actual standard to use is OSHA'S
The EPA standard is to be used for OUTSIDE ambient air quality and it is the average over a period of 3 years.

The proper standard to compare to is the OSHA standard for indoor air quality for respirable particulate (not otherwise specified) for nuisance dusts and smoke. That standard is 5000 ug/m3 on a time-weighted average (8 hours a day, 5 days a week) and is intended to be protective of health over an average working life of 30 years!
This is where second hand smoke really becomes a joke,remember its nearly 90% water vapor and air.....now lets get to the facts of toxicology and dose makes the poison:
According to independent Public and Health Policy Research group, Littlewood & Fennel of Austin, Tx, on the subject of secondhand smoke........
They did the figures for what it takes to meet all of OSHA'S minimum PEL'S on shs/ets.......Did it ever set the debate on fire.
They concluded that:

All this is in a small sealed room 9x20 and must occur in ONE HOUR.
For Benzo[a]pyrene, 222,000 cigarettes
"For Acetone, 118,000 cigarettes
"Toluene would require 50,000 packs of simultaneously smoldering cigarettes.
Acetaldehyde or Hydrazine, more than 14,000 smokers would need to light up.
"For Hydroquinone, "only" 1250 cigarettes
For arsenic 2 million 500,000 smokers at one time
The same number of cigarettes required for the other so called chemicals in shs/ets will have the same outcomes.
So,OSHA finally makes a statement on shs/ets :
Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)...It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded." -Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec'y, OSHA, To Leroy J Pletten, PHD, July 8, 1997
WHAT! DILUTED BELOW PERMISSABLE LEVELS
By the way ASH dropped their lawsuit because OSHA was going to make a rule and that rule would have been weak and been the law of the land,meaning no smoking bans would ever have been enacted anywhere,simply because an open window or a ventilation system would have covered the rule.

Let me also tell you that the relative risk for shs/ets by the SG report of 2006 was a 1.19 ''EPA study is whats used to call it a carcinogen''......milks is a 2.43 and that glass of chlorinated water your about to drink is a 1.25 yet these things aren't determined to be a carcinogen....The gold standard in epidemiology is a 3.0....Now had the SURGEON GENERAL included 2 other shs/ets studys the relative risk for disease from shs/ets would have been nearer a.60-.70 meaning it would have a protective effect against ever getting disease.
But,what each of us has is years and years of exposure and the knowledge that our kids all grew up around shs and generations of others,yet we are here alive not dead from a lousy 30 minute exposure to shs as stanton glantz tries to claim.....thats another story and its just as crazy as all the rest of smokefree's claim about shs/ets.
Oh! have you heard the one about ''laugh'' thirdhand smoke or third hand drinking.
Like I said their claims border beyond that of any reasonable persons commomsence.
The next time you see a healthscare claim
consider the source.Especially if it comes from a government or non profit agency!
 

Vocalek

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Some of your best work Kristen.
:thumb:

I was moved to register so I could post in support of the following...
--The fact that the CASAA board was voted for, not appointed
--The fact that Jason Smith is an ignorant douche

But alas, I selected the wrong registration option.

I must have accidentally picked the option for being born before 1997 or something.
Because I got an email with a form I had to fill out, have my parents sign, and mail in.

So yeah, I won't be commenting.
Which might be for the best.
:D

I'd be willing to adopt you so that I can sign your permission slip.

:rolleyes:
 

rothenbj

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Interesting - and very scary - find, Roth!!

You'd think with all of that evidence to the contrary, someone would have challenged smoking bans (which are largely based on SHS) in court by now!

At this point, there's too much "evidence" and it's awfully costly. Translated, I'd guess BT sees the writing on the wall and is looking for the new product to replace smoking, a deviation on the E-cig I'd guess.

Anyway, back to our friend Emily. I haven't given up on her yet, at least she's researching. Her lastest involved political candidates, but at the end she wrote-

And finally, you might be surprised at the lack of electronic cigarette discussion in this post – but fret not! I'm just taking a short break to do further research and conduct a few interviews before jumping right back into the vaporized saddle. Excitement!

She knows she has an interested audience and you have to give her props in the fact that she just hasn't moved on to the next hot topic.:blink:
 

Drozd

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At this point, there's too much "evidence" and it's awfully costly. Translated, I'd guess BT sees the writing on the wall and is looking for the new product to replace smoking, a deviation on the E-cig I'd guess.

Anyway, back to our friend Emily. I haven't given up on her yet, at least she's researching. Her lastest involved political candidates, but at the end she wrote-



She knows she has an interested audience and you have to give her props in the fact that she just hasn't moved on to the next hot topic.:blink:
lol are you kidding?....she stated that the ecig articles are the most comments she's gotten since writing there...

If I were her I'd milk it too...knowing that someone was actually reading what I wrote and caring enough to comment...
 

Stubby

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A few things to keep in mind as this ongoing story unfolds. Emily is not an investigative reporter. She's a liberal commentator. I believe Blaska's Blog is the conservative side of things. I'm afraid she has fallen into a story she is not likely equipped to deal with. The story's she has been doing are weak at best and go along with her opinion style pieces she is noted for rather then good investigative reporting.

The Daily Page is an online offshoot of the Isthmus magazine which is a weekly news and entertainment rag out of Madison WI. The Isthmus is a whole different story. This is no fluff rag. It's a hard-hitting highly respected weekly that has a long history of very good investigative type news stories. There is little doubt this has gotten the attention of the editors of the Isthmus. Emily can only take this so far as she is well out of her comfort zone, but if the folks at the Isthmus catch the scent of a story and get one of their hounds on it this could get very interesting.
 
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bassnut

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lol are you kidding?....she stated that the ecig articles are the most comments she's gotten since writing there...

If I were her I'd milk it too...knowing that someone was actually reading what I wrote and caring enough to comment...

I think we get baited a little too easily. Too much time wasted on the "Jason" types.
If she submits another article indicating that she hasn't got the message, I suggest we boycott it.
Let Janet Carol have the field.

(sorry Janet)
 
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Vocalek

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I agree with Bassnut. Let's see what she writes. If she's a troll, we will find out soon enough. And if so, she deserves a cold shoulder.

A pleasant surprise would sure be nice, though (she said, optimistically.)

:angel: I loved the movie, Angels in the Outfield. The oft repeated line was, "It could happen."
 

harmony gardens

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I have reached the point where reading these articles is a bad idea for me. I am so angry.. The hostility I feel towards this articles author is neither rational or healthy.


Calm down, Mac,,,, do you feel a song coming from this??? :p

You know, a little honesty on my part, I've actually been smoking a few cigs, myself. I do feel there's a lot of anti smoking sentiment among ecig users, and while I cringe at that a bit, sometimes, I'm really surprised the anti's can't embrace the energy that comes from the ecig community for it's focus on improving health. The fact that they continue to bash nicotine, shows over the top tactics and entrenchment that groups like ASH and Smoke Free kids place on demonizing the behavior and ritual of smoking. When they use funds to give prizes to kids to perfect their media chops by coming up with clever ways to dis smokers, this is what we get.

I was talking to a smoking friend who works at a nursing home. They now are smoke free on the entire property, and he pushes residents out to a sidewalk on the edge of the property so they can have a cigarette. Doesn't it seem sort of insane to tell a 90 year old who pays over $4,000 a month to stay in a facility that they are trying to save thier life by not allowing them to smoke on the property??? He told me that more than one person is wishing they would just die. Sad, to me...
 

Mac

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Calm down, Mac,,,, do you feel a song coming from this??? :p

You know, a little honesty on my part, I've actually been smoking a few cigs, myself. I do feel there's a lot of anti smoking sentiment among ecig users, and while I cringe at that a bit, sometimes, I'm really surprised the anti's can't embrace the energy that comes from the ecig community for it's focus on improving health. The fact that they continue to bash nicotine, shows over the top tactics and entrenchment that groups like ASH and Smoke Free kids place on demonizing the behavior and ritual of smoking. When they use funds to give prizes to kids to perfect their media chops by coming up with clever ways to dis smokers, this is what we get.

I was talking to a smoking friend who works at a nursing home. They now are smoke free on the entire property, and he pushes residents out to a sidewalk on the edge of the property so they can have a cigarette. Doesn't it seem sort of insane to tell a 90 year old who pays over $4,000 a month to stay in a facility that they are trying to save thier life by not allowing them to smoke on the property??? He told me that more than one person is wishing they would just die. Sad, to me...
Good idea. It could be called "puff on this" or something. Heh heh. That example you cited: just seems down right inhumane to me.
 

Vocalek

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I was talking to a smoking friend who works at a nursing home. They now are smoke free on the entire property, and he pushes residents out to a sidewalk on the edge of the property so they can have a cigarette. Doesn't it seem sort of insane to tell a 90 year old who pays over $4,000 a month to stay in a facility that they are trying to save thier life by not allowing them to smoke on the property??? He told me that more than one person is wishing they would just die. Sad, to me...

It has been known for at least 20 years that the depression associated with smoking cessation is not a temporary withdrawal symptom for a segment of the smoking population.

In "Smoking, Smoking Cessation, and Major Depression," published in the Journal of the American Medical Association on September 26,1990, Alexander H. Glassman, M.D., et al discussed the relationship. They used population-based data collected between 1980 and 1983. The lifetime prevalence of major depressive disorder in the entire sample was 5.1%. Among individuals who had never smoked the prevalence was 2.9%. Among those who had ever smoked on a daily basis for at least 1 month, the prevalence was 6.6%.

Depressed subjects are more likely to have ever smoked and they are less likely to have been successful in their efforts to stop smoking.
--------
We have seen a number of cases in which smokers with a history of major depression who are not depressed at the time they try to quit get seriously depressed shortly after giving up cigarettes.
---------
On a number of occasions we have seen serious depression that gradually developed following smoking cessation disappear within hours of resuming cigarette smoking.
---------
As societal attitudes and public policy act to dimish the rate of smoking in general, both the number of people who start and those who are unable to stop will increasingly consist of individuals who are vulnerable to depression.

Remember, this article was published 20 years ago and used data collected up to 30 years ago. I believe the reason the smoking prevalence rate has remained static for the last several years is the a large proportion of the smoking population consists of folks who become unable to function when they are forced to give up nicotine.

Another article published around the same timeframe related an anecdote about a pateint hospitalized with depression. "If you let me smoke," the patient said, "I'll stop trying to kill myself."
 
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D103

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There is also this Elaine; (and I apologize for not having the source of info) but I read an article a few years ago where someone had done a study re: smoking bans and the effect on accessing medical treatment and it showed a considerable number of persons who refused doctor recommended treatment (surgeries, extensive testing, etc.) which would necessitate them entering the hospital solely because they could not smoke while in the hospital. This article also cited several different instances where local doctors refused to write certain prescriptions for clients for a variety of pulmonary difficulties (bronchitis, asthma, etc) because the client refused to quit smoking cigarettes.
 
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