Emily's Post - The Saga Continues

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kristin

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Kristen, you might consider also directing her to the information you have posted here in the past regarding the "manual" that many of these anti-smoking organizations follow, and the tactics they are instructed to use.

Hmmm...not sure which you mean, but whatever information I posted about the antis and THR I got from the resources I gave her in my post.

You could also have her look into the Illinois bill we squashed this spring...Cathy Drea was there, and she opposed altering the bill to restrict sales to minors only, instead opting to pursue the all or nothing approach to PV control. She deliberately dropped the initials of the ACA, I believe, and she's a paid lobbyist for the ALA.

I know JustJulie posted a transcript of the proceedings, as well as an audio file of the hearing a while back.


She specifically said "If anyone can point me to solid, unbiased evidence of organizations like the ALA and AMA, etc., working to squash smokeless alternatives and/or purposely creating ineffective tobacco cessation programs, go for it."

I took that to mean products other than electronic cigarettes, as there is plenty of evidence and it's quite obvious the antis want to squash e-cigs - they put out press releasing specifically demanding it. The are more sneaky about their policy on smokeless alternatives (ie. smokeless tobacco) so I'm sure that is what Emily is doubting.

So I purposely used links that spoke mostly about smokeless tobacco and the antis unwillingness to support and outright hostility towards harm reduction.

I should also post a link to that blog post by the guy at Smokefree Wisconsin saying that they can't support smokeless tobacco because they they are supposed to do "no harm" not "less harm."
 

Drozd

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I think the manual DC2 is refering to is this : http://www.no-smoke.org/pdf/CIA_Fundamentals.pdf

a manual put out by the ALA, campain for tobacco free kids, ACS, etc. that instructs the anti movement people about how to go about the anti movement, aboiding ballot measures, accepting no comprimise like sale to minors clauses...that it's better to walk away with nothing...

I'd also like to point out if anyone hasnt seen it or caught it the statements of the CDC durring the FDA press release...it seems to be where the opinion of even the look of social inpropriety is grounds in their eyes for a ban:

Matthew McKenna: Thanks Dr. Sharfstein for including CDC on the- this very important call today. We at CDC are firmly committed to protecting our nation from tobacco use which is the number one preventable killer in this country. Behavior is responsible for over 400,000 premature deaths each year and every per- for every person who dies from smoking, 20 more suffer from at least one serious tobacco related illness. As a nation we can’t lose our momentum in the fight to end the tobacco use epidemic. We have to maintain our drive to protect all our loved ones of the number one preventable cause of death.
And not only are tobacco products highly addictive but their use is fueled by an industry that’s heavily in new product development. These products are promoted through innovative media that makes smoking appear to be attractive, sexy and maturing to use. These images have no other purpose than to hook new generations of smokers. Just today approximately 3,600 young people will try smoking for the first time and 1,100 will become addicted to tobacco. Without help to quit half of these will die prematurely from this addiction.
Over the last decades our nation has made tremendous progress in protecting our neighbors, family and friends from exposure to second hand smoke, reducing youth initiation and helping tobacco users quit successfully. E-cigarettes closely resemble a real cigarette. Users then exhale a vapor that mimics smoke. Therefore beyond potential harms to the user the use of these products could counter the impact from smoke free laws as well as other policies that have decreased the social acceptability of smoking behaviors.E-cigarettes stand to reintroduce the appearance of smoking in other wise smoke free environments like malls, restaurants and even day cares. This could potentially impact use tobacco una- initiation in use of real cigarettes.
Now currently we don’t have evidence to support claims as you heard that e-cigarettes are safe for effective quit aid for tobacco users. It’s not clear what the misuse levels are that could lead to nicotine poisoning. But we do have a mountain of evidence demonstrating that the modeling of this behavior by peers, parents and other adults and even actors in the movies makes it more likely that exposed kids will pick up the habit.
As the nations prevention agency we need to protect our youth and the many generations to come from the seduction and influence of any form of tobacco use simulated or real. The CDC’s committed to working with FDA, our communities and our close partners to ensure that the current and future generations of kids do not become victims of the tobacco use epidemic. I want to thank you again for providing us with the opportunity to share our perspectives on this call and I’ll now turn our discussion over to Judy Leon at the FDA.
From: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/NewsEvents/Newsroom/MediaTranscripts/UCM173405.pdf
 
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ezmoose

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Commented:

Emily,

As a journalist, you should easily be able to recognize the culvert bias built into the typical E Cigarette article.

Like this one:

Manufacturer Touts Electronic Cigarettes As Health Officials Ask Questions - Health News Story - WISC Madison

Note three obvious flaws:

1. Pitting a health care professional against a small business owner.
2. Absence of counterpoints by a Tobacco Harm Reduction professional.
3. Outright lies about the dangers of E Cigarettes that parrot the FDA's Shock N' Awe News Release; in fact, embellish it.

Is the average (particularly not tobacco consumer) reader going to dispute was being fed to them?

Why would they, they have no vested interest to do the research.

Hook, line, and sinker!

Bob
 

Vocalek

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You could also have her look into the Illinois bill we squashed this spring...Cathy Drea was there, and she opposed altering the bill to restrict sales to minors only, instead opting to pursue the all or nothing approach to PV control. She deliberately dropped the initials of the ACA, I believe, and she's a paid lobbyist for the ALA.

I know JustJulie posted a transcript of the proceedings, as well as an audio file of the hearing a while back.

I posted a response earlier on this very topic, and quoted Kathy Drea.
 

rothenbj

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Matthew McKenna: Thanks Dr. Sharfstein for including CDC on the- this very important call today. We at CDC are firmly committed to protecting our nation from tobacco use which is the number one preventable killer in this country. Behavior is responsible for over 400,000 premature deaths each year and every per- for every person who dies from smoking, 20 more suffer from at least one serious tobacco related illness. As a nation we can’t lose our momentum in the fight to end the tobacco use epidemic. We have to maintain our drive to protect all our loved ones of the number one preventable cause of death.
And not only are tobacco products highly addictive but their use is fueled by an industry that’s heavily in new product development. These products are promoted through innovative media that makes smoking appear to be attractive, sexy and maturing to use. These images have no other purpose than to hook new generations of smokers. Just today approximately 3,600 young people will try smoking for the first time and 1,100 will become addicted to tobacco. Without help to quit half of these will die prematurely from this addiction.
Over the last decades our nation has made tremendous progress in protecting our neighbors, family and friends from exposure to second hand smoke, reducing youth initiation and helping tobacco users quit successfully. E-cigarettes closely resemble a real cigarette. Users then exhale a vapor that mimics smoke. Therefore beyond potential harms to the user the use of these products could counter the impact from smoke free laws as well as other policies that have decreased the social acceptability of smoking behaviors.E-cigarettes stand to reintroduce the appearance of smoking in other wise smoke free environments like malls, restaurants and even day cares. This could potentially impact use tobacco una- initiation in use of real cigarettes.
Now currently we don’t have evidence to support claims as you heard that e-cigarettes are safe for effective quit aid for tobacco users. It’s not clear what the misuse levels are that could lead to nicotine poisoning. But we do have a mountain of evidence demonstrating that the modeling of this behavior by peers, parents and other adults and even actors in the movies makes it more likely that exposed kids will pick up the habit.
As the nations prevention agency we need to protect our youth and the many generations to come from the seduction and influence of any form of tobacco use simulated or real. The CDC’s committed to working with FDA, our communities and our close partners to ensure that the current and future generations of kids do not become victims of the tobacco use epidemic. I want to thank you again for providing us with the opportunity to share our perspectives on this call and I’ll now turn our discussion over to Judy Leon at the FDA.

Emphasis surely added as evidence. Is smoking what these paragraphs are about? Highly questionable and quite obvious what the true message is. "Tobacco (not smoking) is the number one preventable killer" in this country to start off the diatribe and "victims of the tobacco use epidemic" is the closing statement.

If that doesn't send a clear anti-tobacco as opposed to anti-smoking message, I don't know what does. Oh there are two others not formally stated, Smokeless tobacco and E-cigs are not safe alternatives to smoking, the plausible deniability statement used by all of the antis. :mad:
 
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bassnut

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Put 100 people in a room and they may not elect a leader, but they will sure as hell find someone to rally their hatred around. The article itself was pure hack but crumbled under the weight of those pesky facts.

It's fantastic that we have such depth of experts. I'm proud to serve on CASAA's Board.
:thumbs:

I think you ought to post this, word-for-word as a comment.
 

D103

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They are geting slicker. This article utilizes scare tactics like others but focuses more on the "the behavior". Talks about Smoking Behaviors, mimics smoke, appearance of smoking, and may reintroduce 'appearance of smoking into day cares' - ooh nooo, the precious children again...... scare wording: KILLER, EPIDEMIC, NICOTINE POISONING, VICTIMS OF TOBACCO USE EPIDEMIC and age-old favorites: SECOND HAND SMOKE AND ADDICTION. And of course no scare-focused manipulation would be complete without the HERO guaranteeing to save the Day - "As the nations prevention agency we need to protect our youth and generations to come from the seduction [moralism] and influence of any form of tobacco use SIMULATED or real." Exit the CDC and the FDA, dressed in white with white ten gallon cowboy hats atop white stallion horses, riding off into the sunset.....we can all rest peacefully....we and our children are truly safe.
 
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Danyulc

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Am I the only one comtemplating a spree of postal outrage?

Send me a PM and maybe we can meet up and plan something, LOL.

Seriously though, it is incredibly frustrating how much damage a few close minded ignorant people can do. Nevermind what happens when you get a whole alliance full of them.

I think there are a number of otherwise rational people that have traded in their free will to join the horde of activists. Activism by itself if fine and often necessary. It's only dangerous when you refuse to look at the evidence and make a rational decision. It's incredibly ludicrous that not a single anti-smoking outfit supports Ecigs. It's almost as if there is a competition among these groups to be the 'Most' anti tobacco.

It really is incredibly frustrating. The worst thing is there is absolutely positively NO reasoning whatsoever with people like this. They can stand in the street and spout their nonsense all day long and I wouldn't bother to interrupt. BTW, I'm not talking about the reporter. She seems to be on the verge of rational thought. I'd say for sure, but, absent her comments on this latest round of evidence I'm not sure yet.

BTW, that first sentence was just a joke. Like maybe an inappropriate joke, but, please ATF/FBI/CIA don't come crashing down my front door. I can't afford a new one! I don't own any guns or bombs either!

I'd even take 2 to 1 odds that an Anti Smoking crazy would go postal before an Ecigger, lol.

-Danyulc
 

Bill Godshall

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I suggest that folks stop visiting (or caring about) Emily's Post, as its a waste of our collective time to obsess about the musings of one college student who posts on the internet, and one or two idiots who posted stupid replies.

BTW For the past several decades, Carol Thompson has been angrily claiming that there is no scientific evidence that cigarette smoking is hazardous to health, and instead she insists that there has been a 60 year old conspiracy by antismokers to dupe the public to believe that cigarette smoking is a health hazard.

We need to focus on urging the FDA to stop trying to ban e-cigarettes and to instead promulgate reasonable and responsible regulations for e-cigarettes as tobacco products.

We also need to monitor and defeat any/all state/local legislation that would ban the sale or usage of e-cigarettes (e.g. Springfield, MO).

And of course, we need to continue educating the public and generating accurate news stories.
 

Drozd

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Emphasis surely added as evidence. Is smoking what these paragraphs are about? Highly questionable and quite obvious what the true message is. "Tobacco (not smoking) is the number one preventable killer" in this country to start off the diatribe and "victims of the tobacco use epidemic" is the closing statement.

If that doesn't send a clear anti-tobacco as opposed to anti-smoking message, I don't know what does. Oh there are two others not formally stated, Smokeless tobacco and E-cigs are not safe alternatives to smoking, the plausible deniability statement used by all of the antis. :mad:

They are geting slicker. This article utilizes scare tactics like others but focuses more on the "the behavior". Talks about Smoking Behaviors, mimics smoke, appearance of smoking, and may reintroduce 'appearance of smoking into day cares' - ooh nooo, the precious children again...... scare wording: KILLER, EPIDEMIC, NICOTINE POISONING, VICTIMS OF TOBACCO USE EPIDEMIC and age-old favorites: SECOND HAND SMOKE AND ADDICTION. And of course no scare-focused manipulation would be complete without the HERO guaranteeing to save the Day - "As the nations prevention agency we need to protect our youth and generations to come from the seduction [moralism] and influence of any form of tobacco use SIMULATED or real." Exit the CDC and the FDA, dressed in white with white ten gallon cowboy hats atop white stallion horses, riding off into the sunset.....we can all rest peacefully....we and our children are truly safe.

glad you guys cauth this and that it bothers you as much as me...
really I think it's the CDC and the groups like the ALA, and ACS, and campaign for tobacco free kids that seem to me at least to be pushing and driving the FDA...using the FDA as their hatchetman because well you cant sue the FDA to recover any money... so even if Njoy wins in the long run there's no monetary recompense...

it's obvious that the CDC considers even the look or the social acceptability of it as part of the issue...and they're the one that advise the states on what they should be spending on tobacco prevention education and cessation...and issue the state "report card" .... when you look at who runs those programs it's obvious it's the ALA, ACS, campain for tobacco free kids, and groups like smoke free wisconsin that stand to profit...


and they're and the state are also dependant on the money from the very industry that they're trying to squash....here's a great article about that: Ten years later, tobacco deal going up in smoke - The Red Tape Chronicles - msnbc.com

Consider this the next time you see a teenager take a drag on a cigarette: Your state government likely has a financial stake in that kid continuing to smoke. And quite possibly, so does your retirement portfolio.
That was hardly the intention 10 years ago, when a collection of state attorneys general delivered a crushing blow to Big Tobacco. On Nov. 23, 1998, the nation's four largest cigarette sellers agreed to pay $200 billion over 30 years in what seemed like a victory for David over Goliath. The money was supposed to help the states pay for health care and anti-smoking campaigns. Instead, much of it -- even payments that aren't due for 20 years -- has already been spent on politically popular tax breaks through complicated borrowing schemes initiated by Wall Street investment banks.
Because these states have essentially borrowed against future payments from the tobacco industry, they are now dependent on the continued vitality of cigarette sales. If Big Tobacco stumbles, states will be on the hook for these massive, billion-dollar loans.

Where did those loans come from? Perhaps from you. When Wall Street talked 25 states into borrowing against future tobacco payments -- a process known as “securitization” -- it sold bonds to individual investors and mutual funds that buy municipal bonds. Now, they are betting on Big Tobacco, too.
Worse yet, anyone invested in tobacco bonds has been seeing their money go up in smoke. Some bond funds that are heavily invested in tobacco have lost nearly 40 percent of their value this year. The reason for the sharp drop is disputed, but some observers say it's partly attributable to anti-smoking efforts. In other words, good news for the state health department is bad news for the revenue department
Bond issues aren't just for firetrucks and schools anymore. Bond funds can invest in complicated bonds issued by pseudo-government agencies that are ultimately backed by private ventures, such as housing developments. The largest segment of this pseudo-bond market is made up of tobacco bonds -- bonds issued by states that have borrowed against their future tobacco settlement payments.

What are tobacco bonds?
Oppenheimer’s Rochester family offers 18 different bond funds, some of which have as much as 20 percent of their assets invested in tobacco bonds, according to fund manager Daniel Loughran. The Rochester funds, while among the most aggressive investors in tobacco bonds, are hardly unique. A review of 660 leading bond funds covered by the investment research firm Morningstar Inc., conducted at msnbc.com's request, showed that more than 260 are invested in tobacco bonds.
The rush to tap the revenue stream began soon after the tobacco settlement was signed 10 years ago. The cigarette companies agreed to make annual payments that would total $200 billion by 2025. The money was to be divided among the 46 participating states, with New York and California each getting about $700 million a year, Ohio about $300 million, Wisconsin just over $100 million and so on.
It didn't take long for Wall Street to invent a way to take a cut. The creative minds at the now-defunct Bear Stearns investment bank traveled the country making this pitch to statehouses: Why wait for the money? Why not take a lump sum payment up front? Bear Stearns and other Wall Street firms eventually persuaded legislators in most states to “securitize” the payouts by issuing bonds and paying the bondholders back with the annual tobacco payments.
30 cents on the dollar
Taking the early lump-sum payment has its price, however. Many states receive only 30 or 40 cents on the dollar. In a typical example, Wisconsin would have been entitled to about $5 billion in payments through 2025. Instead, it settled on one payment of $1.6 billion in 2001.
“When you securitize on the municipal market, you lose a lot of money,” said Kevin Olson, who runs the independent Web site MunicipalBonds.com. “It’s not very efficient.”
Through the years, state officials have offered numerous rationales for the benefits of securitization. Five years ago, Don Benton, a Republican state senator in Washington, told USA Today that spending on smoking cessation programs was “a complete waste of money. You'd be hard-pressed to find any citizen who does not know smoking is hazardous to your health." He wanted the money to go instead to infrastructure projects like new roads. "Sitting in traffic for two hours would make you want to smoke," he told the newspaper.
States also say that they prefer the certainty of immediate payments to the uncertainty surrounding the tobacco industry’s long-term future.

Investment banks, in particular, love tobacco bonds. Because they are more complex than standard debt offerings, they offer steeper commissions. In 2007, when Ohio traded its future payments for an immediate payout of about $5 billion, it paid brokers $30 million. The outcome for many states – including California, New York, Ohio and Wisconsin -- is that the tobacco money destined for state coffers in 2010, 2015 and 2025 has already been spent.
'An incentive not to put tobacco out of business'
The irony is that the states and some smaller governmental bodies need tobacco firms to make their payments every year because, to varying degrees, they are on the hook to pay off bondholders if the cigarette companies default. Some, including New York and California, have directly guaranteed their tobacco bond debt with general revenue in order to secure more favorable rates. Others have an implied obligation not to let their bonds default, lest their credit ratings be tarnished.
“They have created mass structural deficits,” said Hans Baden, a lawyer at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a think tank that has filed a lawsuit claiming that the Master Settlement Agreement is unconstitutional. “They have sold the money they are getting in the future in exchange for money now, based on a gradually dwindling revenue stream. They have retained the risk while selling the money … and now they have an incentive not to put tobacco out of business.”
An interruption in tobacco industry payments would be catastrophic both to state budgets and individual investors.
Critics of the arrangement contend that states that have issued tobacco bonds have no incentive to pass anti-smoking laws or launch advertising campaigns. Doing so could lead to fiscal ruin. So could any additional class-action lawsuit success against the tobacco industry.
Fears that new tobacco litigation could undermine the settlement run so high that 36 states filed briefs in 2003 in support of the tobacco industry after it was hit with a $10 billion judgment from a lawsuit for alleged false advertising.

In the briefs, state officials fretted that the judgment would impair the industry’s ability to make its annual payments and “directly impact important state programs.”
'A real tragedy for our country'
Those state programs often have nothing to do with tobacco.
From the start, the tobacco settlement money was intended to help states pay for health care costs related to smoking illnesses and to fund smoking-cessation programs, though the agreement not bind the states to use it for those purposes.
But to date, only about 3 percent of the tobacco settlement money has gone to cessation efforts, such as "quit smoking" marketing campaigns. Meanwhile, 10 times that amount has been used by state legislatures to plug budget gaps, or by governors to offer tax relief.

Though smoking continues to decline in the U.S., it remains a major health problem. Every year, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control, smoking-related illnesses are responsible for $96 billion in health-care expenses. But states have invested only about $3 billion from the settlement fund in the past 10 years on anti-smoking campaigns.
None of the states covered by the settlement spends the amount recommended by the Centers for Disease Control on tobacco-cessation programs. Only nine states pay even half that amount. Meanwhile, 13 states spend less than 10 percent of what the agency recommends. Ohio, for example, will spend $7.1 million on anti-smoking efforts in 2009, compared to the $266 million prescribed by the CDC.



The future of tobacco bond issues


"The main risk some people (worry about) is litigation,” he said. “We've identified it as a risk but a very slight risk. In fact the industry has a long winning streak … against class-action lawsuits” -- a 57-case run dating to 1998.
Having state attorneys general filing amicus briefs on your behalf doesn’t hurt, he noted, adding, “They are in our corner.”
That, he suggested, indicates the smoking industry isn’t going anywhere for a long time.
 

ezmoose

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I suggest that folks stop visiting (or caring about) Emily's Post, as its a waste of our collective time to obsess about the musings of one college student who posts on the internet, and one or two idiots who posted stupid replies.

Although Emily has gotten her share of attention and her anti-E Cigarette readers may not have been significantly swayed by what's been presented by E Cigarette proponents, I rather enjoyed using her posts to crystallize my own thoughts and vent some frustration! lol

Thanks for your time and efforts in the battle for truth, justice, and the American way!
 
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harmony gardens

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The rush to tap the revenue stream began soon after the tobacco settlement was signed 10 years ago. The cigarette companies agreed to make annual payments that would total $200 billion by 2025. The money was to be divided among the 46 participating states, with New York and California each getting about $700 million a year, Ohio about $300 million, Wisconsin just over $100 million and so on.
It didn't take long for Wall Street to invent a way to take a cut. The creative minds at the now-defunct Bear Stearns investment bank traveled the country making this pitch to statehouses: Why wait for the money? Why not take a lump sum payment up front? Bear Stearns and other Wall Street firms eventually persuaded legislators in most states to “securitize” the payouts by issuing bonds and paying the bondholders back with the annual tobacco payments.
30 cents on the dollar
Taking the early lump-sum payment has its price, however. Many states receive only 30 or 40 cents on the dollar. In a typical example, Wisconsin would have been entitled to about $5 billion in payments through 2025. Instead, it settled on one payment of $1.6 billion in 2001.


This is exactly how Gov Doyle sold us down the river, and then to see his pride at signing the smoking ban, well, it made most smokers sick. To think that this money was supposed to offset treatment costs for smoking related illness and to help people quit should have taken away a lot of the so called "burden to society" that smoking causes. This should have been treated as an insurance fund to pay for health care for smokers, but they spent it on other things. Then cigarettes were taxed yet again, not to care for smokers, but to provide health care for kids.

While I'm all in for ecigs, I'm also more than a little annoyed that anti smoking groups continue to use the cost of health care for smokers as a reason to end smoking, when the money to help offset those costs are already built into the price of a pack of cigarettes.

I also resent that the anti smoking money that is built into the settlement is being used to stop ecigs. I personally feel some of that money should be spent on tests to assist companies that are trying to provide harm reduction, but oh yeah, I almost forgot,,, that money is all gone. The only money the state will continue to pass along is to the people who make contests for kids to make anti smoking hate messages.
 
it's obvious that the CDC considers even the look or the social acceptability of it as part of the issue...and they're the one that advise the states on what they should be spending on tobacco prevention education and cessation...and issue the state "report card" .... when you look at who runs those programs it's obvious it's the ALA, ACS, campain for tobacco free kids, and groups like smoke free wisconsin that stand to profit...


and they're and the state are also dependant on the money from the very industry that they're trying to squash....here's a great article about that:

Funny ting happened on my way to review the smoking ban in Wisconsin. They actually have the numbers on how the state is to spend their share of the big tobacco money in the settlement.
200+ million to the general fund and 23+ million to education and prevention of smoking

Hmmmmmmmmmmm
 

Drozd

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Funny ting happened on my way to review the smoking ban in Wisconsin. They actually have the numbers on how the state is to spend their share of the big tobacco money in the settlement.
200+ million to the general fund and 23+ million to education and prevention of smoking

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

yep...and the CDC says that Wisconsin should be spending :
control_08.gif

Grade: F
FY 2010 Tobacco Control Program Funding:
$8,041,137*

CDC Best Practice Rate: $64,300,000 *Includes FY2010 funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

thumb-down.gif
Thumbs down for Wisconsin for decreasing funding for its state tobacco control program by over 50 percent from last year despite increasing the state cigarette tax by 75 cents per pack.

From: State Summary

Tobacco Settlement
Tobacco Control Appropriations
Wisconsin allocated $6,850,000 for tobacco prevention and cessation programs in FY2010 (July 1, 2009 to June 30, 2010) from the state general fund. This is the first year of the FY2010-FY2011 biennium. In FY2009, $15,250,000 was allocated.

FY2010-FY2011 Biennial Budget (A.B. 75) enacted 6/29/09 and effective 7/1/09 (FY2010) & 7/1/10 (FY2011).



From: Wisconsin State Information -- American Lung Association SLATI


There's some big gaps in those numbers...so the question is who's ...... that they aret getting the money that they think they should?....you think that e-cigs and other smokeless alternatives that aren't on their tax schedules, and that are actually effective in reducing the smoking population have them running scared?... is Wisconsin on the hook for that money even though it's already been spent? so it's really in their best interest to keep smokers smoking?
 

Stubby

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I suggest that folks stop visiting (or caring about) Emily's Post, as its a waste of our collective time to obsess about the musings of one college student who posts on the internet, and one or two idiots who posted stupid replies.

BTW For the past several decades, Carol Thompson has been angrily claiming that there is no scientific evidence that cigarette smoking is hazardous to health, and instead she insists that there has been a 60 year old conspiracy by antismokers to dupe the public to believe that cigarette smoking is a health hazard.
No one takes Carol Thompson serious in Wisconsin and she's been largely ignored on the comments. But then again I can understand how someone can go off the table. Let's not forget about the 3 decades old misinformation campaign against ST by tobacco control groups. Then there is 3rd hand smoke and exaggerated claims about SHS. Where does one draw the line when TC is just as nuts as Carol is.

This is an excellent discussion that has clarified what THR is about. It's exactly the place where the public can get educated. The Isthmus is a highly respected weekly out of Madison and the Daily Page is part of there online version. This is grass roots activism at its best.
 

Shotline

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I just read that article and most of the comments. I am left with the question, why is anyone opposing ecigarettes?

We have a product which is more than significantly better/safer that what it is intended to replace. I has absolutely no ill effects for anyone else.

It boggles the mind as to why there is even a discussion about it. I am left with the suspicion that the controversy comes from the fact that ecigarettes/personal vaporizers are not controlled by the pharmaceutical or tobacco industries.

In an attempt to promote PV's, has any of the companies or the CASAA thought of sending a kit and some eliquid along with a letter explaining the benefits to President Obama? He may be of some good use after all. In the long run I don't think it could hurt.
 
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