ePipeMods Fully Custom Made Wood E-Pipes - Part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tezcatlipoca

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 12, 2012
2,326
5,368
Riverside, CA
Point is we are already selling ourselves to China...why add to that by encouraging a people who flat out ignore all copywrite laws and rip off designers. I could very easily see Matt's pipes being recreated in China and you would be unable to tell one of theirs from one of Matt's, the Chinese would even copy his and Brian's trademarks without hesitating...I have seen way too many excellent copies of custom knives coming out of China to believe otherwise.

The original e-cig patents where held by USA inventors btw...yes Chine copied original US patents to start with.

I try to avoid buying Chinese vaping products and would not own a clone mod for love or money. I start in 2011 with a V2 kit, two weeks later I bought a Provari. I don't own any Chinese mods except some very old eGos and I buy made in the US juice. I do buy Chinese made cartos because there isn't much choice. For 310 atties I buy Cisco. I currently own 10 of Matt's pipes and it would make me sick to see clones popping up. I own Bams, Sabers, Lewis Gentry, and Zen. I also own originals from other countries like the Cara Vela, Chameleon, Siam Mods, Nzonic and Launcher. If there was a decent Chinese mod of original design I might even consider it but I hate supporting ripped off designs.

The problem with China as I see it is not that they have a culture of ripping off designs or anything like that, but rather that there doesn't seem to be an infrastructure in place that prevents individual companies from doing it. There are certainly Chinese companies that make their way by ripping off other designs, but I would say that Ovale, for example, has been an innovator since the beginning, and I think their devices have been pretty original (like the Twist and the eVic). I get the impression that it's left up to individual companies to determine their own business ethics, and that's pretty problematic.

I'm certainly not pro-China and I disagree with a lot of what their government does, but frankly I'm glad somebody violated that American 1960s "smokeless non-tobacco cigarette" patent because clearly it wasn't going anywhere, and I doubt the early 2000s e-cigarette had much in common with the old patent-holder.
 

Absintheur

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 7, 2012
2,911
4,920
north central Indiana
That patent had long since expired. I consider companies that copy designs after patents expire to be bottom sucking opportunists. But those who make copies when a patent is active are the lowest of the low...just one step above politicians. The is a single silver lining in the Chinese clones I will admit, so far none have tried to pass their copies off as originals tho some push it. Look at the pre-order advertizing of the Kick copy...they had the stones to use the pic from the Evolv website!

I have a copy of a Chris Reeves Serbenza, a very high end knife. I bought it knowing it was a copy out of China but in order to prove it I had to measure the threads on the screws, the Chinese used a coarser thread. Other than that it carried all the Reeves trademarks and stamps and even the instructions and box were perfectly copied. I was offered retail plus from a knowledgeable dealer for it (was a copy of a LE). He was amazed when I told him it was a 30 dollar copy.

I am happy the Chinese developed the e-cig as they did but I dislike the clones. The example of the Killer is a good one. I have read that people who were considering a Killer tried the clone and now feel because the clone sucks the Killer must suck as well. I believe innovation should be rewarded and by the same token anyone who violates a patent should be shunned. Recently there was a very good innovation, a disposable in tank atomizer called the Raven. It works very well and allows people who don't want to rebuild atomizers have a very good vape with all the flavor an atomizer has and does in in a tank.
 

MistBusterMatt

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Feb 11, 2011
2,975
4,477
Ga USA
This is the first time I can recall someone other than me soap boxing about clones:) I think everyone here knows how I feel about it. I have been drug through the mud, called a racist, compared to Hitler etc. etc. It's a hard line to walk, especially as a vendor about to open a store. I have watched ALL of my designs being copied by individuals and companies around the world. V1 pipes, mjolnirs, the VapeSafe, and so on. I can say that it has in no way effected our sales thus far. Our sales have continued to grow rapidly, despite even a Chinese knock off of the mjolnir (which looked like an unpolished turd btw). There are at least half a dozen mod makers out there using my switch design. What can I say, I knew it would happen, and imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I hope that ten years from now I can at least be regarded as the grandfather of e-pipes.
As for myself and my company I see it as a personal conviction at this point. I have chosen not to buy or sell deliberate clones. The issue seems to be a very volatile subject, so I too have decided to come down off the soap box. Our country is in fact selling itself to China, but that is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to American apathy. I have gone and said too much again... It's a passionate conviction, I will do my best to keep it to myself :)
 

Ironworker808

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 14, 2012
329
811
52
Home Of The Worlds Most Famous Rat

Absintheur

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 7, 2012
2,911
4,920
north central Indiana
This is the first time I can recall someone other than me soap boxing about clones:) I think everyone here knows how I feel about it. I have been drug through the mud, called a racist, compared to Hitler etc. etc. It's a hard line to walk, especially as a vendor about to open a store. I have watched ALL of my designs being copied by individuals and companies around the world. V1 pipes, mjolnirs, the VapeSafe, and so on. I can say that it has in no way effected our sales thus far. Our sales have continued to grow rapidly, despite even a Chinese knock off of the mjolnir (which looked like an unpolished turd btw). There are at least half a dozen mod makers out there using my switch design. What can I say, I knew it would happen, and imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I hope that ten years from now I can at least be regarded as the grandfather of e-pipes.
As for myself and my company I see it as a personal conviction at this point. I have chosen not to buy or sell deliberate clones. The issue seems to be a very volatile subject, so I too have decided to come down off the soap box. Our country is in fact selling itself to China, but that is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to American apathy. I have gone and said too much again... It's a passionate conviction, I will do my best to keep it to myself :)

Hear, Hear!
 

shawnski

Unresolved Status
ECF Veteran
Something tells me if a company in China started banging out copies of Matt's pipes for 30 bucks ya'll would be up in arms screaming for blood yet it is okay to rip off a designer in Greece....send that money to the folks who are buying our country...I am sure it will all end well...sigh...
I dont think its ripping off, not everyone has disposable amounts of income for some of the devices out there, I put this info for those who dont have 70+ dollars for a killer who would care to try something of its category.
Hey Ab you haven't bought a clone or anything of china since y9u have been vaping?
 

Absintheur

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 7, 2012
2,911
4,920
north central Indiana
Hey Ab you haven't bought a clone or anything of china since y9u have been vaping?

I can honestly answer no to that, with the possible exception of the SmokTech Natural if you consider that a clone and an RBA that it turns out was supposed to be a clone of something or other that was included in a trade. I did buy a few mods made in China early on, eGos and a Bolt for example but those aren't really clones.

From the reviews of the clones I have seen most don't hold a candle to the originals, I looked at a bunch of clones at Vape Bash and the quality just isn't there compared to the real deals either. I am sure the cartos are all clones of each other and I do buy some of them but my mods and such are all originals.

I own a bunch of mods...I worked 2-3 jobs at a time a good part of my life, made some investments that turned out to be right guesses and retired at 42. I am not rich by any means and if the market really tanks bad I may be looking for work again. But I would rather own one good original mod than 4 Chinese clones.
 
Last edited:

dirquist

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 2, 2009
2,316
3,220
50
Kent, Wa
On the clone debate, my position is clear as mud. First problem is I haven't even seen but a couple "clones". My perspective comes mostly from the headphone industry. A clone, like Abs was saying with his knives, were direct copies. My Audio Technica M40s are copied with the exact packaging, including insert material. The headphones are identical, the only way to know is to remove the ear padding, then a couple screws and once you can see the driver there is a sticker that the cloners somehow missed. After that if you look around close enough you may see crappier looking screws or some ruff edges on the finish.

That crap really pisses me off and hurts the consumers. Some people would pass it off and say it was ok because they were cheaper, but all it does is make is really hard for other consumers to get the real thing. You just cant support scum like that. The solution in the headphone industry is to buy from "Authorized" resellers listed on the manufacturers website. Other than that the risk is too huge.

I know there are a couple clones out there, like the photo used for the bullcrap version of the kick, but for the most part they are loose copies at best. I own a DuD but I honestly had never even seen or heard of the DiD at the time. I got an email from a vendor with news that they were going to stock this genesis atty and I jumped on it crazy fast thinking they would be gone quick like all the others I had seen. It was my first genesis and I was naive to clones at the time. I was just stunned that I was able to get one lol. Now that said I still use the little sucker. Its ok.

The truth is I just wish these products didnt even bother with the misleading advertising since they all seem pretty different from the original anyhow, might as well just make their own mark in the industry. Look at the RSST, it was actually called the AC9 when it was first announced and there is nobody other than a completely blind person that would think for one fraction of a second that it was an AC9. They even came up with some improvements. So why dont they just separate themselves as much as possible from the original in the first place. Ug. Other than that I dont think I have any "clones" at all. I buy the real deal because I do know what fake Audio Technicas sound like ;)
 

dirquist

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 2, 2009
2,316
3,220
50
Kent, Wa
I also hate that Matt's and some others original designs were copied like that. Shame. Just come up with your own way to make your pipe or mod work. Its just pathetic really.

Speaking of pathetic, there is a pipe maker out there that outright solicited me only to bash Matt and epipemods after I posted a pipe pic on Facebook. He went on and on. This one comment in particular was priceless. One of his biggest gripes with Matt was that he cares too much about safety. LOL. He really said those exact words lol. Holy crap, really dude, was went through my mind. He said he spends full days gutting Matts pipes for people so that he can put them back together to make them work property. Basically he takes the vapesafe out so people can do super low ohm coils without the voltage loss EPM pipes have from the circuitry. Ya know what, I whole heartedly appreciate that someone has my safety in mind. Sad thing is I wanted one of this guys pipes and planned to get one but that went right out the window forever. Scumbag!
 

ThetaReactor

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 13, 2012
290
440
GA, USA
It's tough sometimes. My favorite mech is a Kamry K100. It's an unabashed Empire knock-off. But I don't feel too bad about it. For one, they actually improved the design by putting an eGo spec connection on it. But mostly because the original has been essential discontinued for years now. It's obviously an old design because most of the 901 drippers it was aimed at have very likely moved on to rebuildables now. I'd probably buy a Chinese copy of the Darwin, too, for most of the same reasons. Hell, they'd probably modify the arm so you can use tanks on it. And add a puff counter.

But if both versions are available, I'll go for the real thing. They are invariably assembled with greater care. It's the same as the ProVari argument. You get what you pay for, and I think most people will get that eventually.
 

Bigfoot1974

Super Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 14, 2010
572
879
Flemingsburg, KY
www.mammothskins.com
Matt, I've been looking at the Peterson stems to go with the fire in the sky acrylic. I know that colors can be deceiving through the interweb and was wanting your opinion what color goes best with it. So far my choice would be to go with the tortoise shell but like I said sometimes its hard to trust pictures. Thanks
 

Mindtroverted

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2012
329
286
38
Zagreb, Croatia
I have only one positive thing to say about the clones. I personally started with an eGo kit and a Vivi Nova copy. When I realized I'm going to stay a vaper for quite some time, I waited to accumulate enough funds and went for the real deal. If I hadn't had the cheap clones to use until I got enough money, I would've started smoking again. Copies are a good stepping stone. A gateway vape gear, if you will :)

The moment I got my first genuine piece of gear I never bought another clone. Resellers are keeping the clone industry alive. That and the consumerist mentality of "now,now,now; gimme, gimme, gimme".
 

Mindtroverted

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2012
329
286
38
Zagreb, Croatia
Anybody want to sell his/her galdalf to me ?? :)

You can always buddy up with someone from the U.S., wait for a Gandalf and order it by entering your buddy's address. Then the buddy sends the pipe to you and everyone's happy. If you try to find someone who's willing to sell their Gandalf, You're gonna have a bad time.
 

shoogdadi

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 6, 2012
768
713
Shreveport, LA
Chezzz, there were Gandalfs still for sale just yesterday. If you wait till Friday I'm sure you can snag one. Pipes go up for sale nearly every Friday at 2PM EST. And you really do need to get to 25 posts, become a Verified Member, and post that in the Classifieds. When Dusty sees that post, it's gonna be deleted.
 
Last edited:

Mindtroverted

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2012
329
286
38
Zagreb, Croatia
Chezzz, there were Gandalfs still for sale just yesterday. If you wait till Friday I'm sure you can snag one.

I think Chezzz's problem is that he can't order to Malaysia (not sure why though). That's why I suggested buddying up with a local who'd be willing to receive the package and send it to him. Of course, don't know if that'd do any good since I don't know what the problem for delivering the package to Malaysia is.
 

Bigfoot1974

Super Member
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 14, 2010
572
879
Flemingsburg, KY
www.mammothskins.com
I think that these days a patent or copywrite is a waste of time and money. Nobody cares about an original design anymore. I started in my industry almost eight years ago and at that time only a handful of companies was involved. I pride myself on having original ideas. I can sit for days while designing just building things in my head. I have designed over 300 products now and all of them being original.

I know have two competitors within a 30 mile radius. Why? Because these a-holes used to work for me or be a partner of mine. I even went to court over this and the judge didn't seem to give a damn that I had spent hours and hours working out my designs so these a-holes can come along and just copy it and profit from it. His arguement was that since my products are on the Internet that it is considered public domain, what a load of crap!!

I could rant about that for a long time. But back to vaping I did look at the terminator and my first impression was that it was a cool design. After watching the video and reading these post I would never get it. In fact, I went and ordered a Ebaron Spiral for my new pipe. I try to buy American products whenever possible and at the very least from small businesses that care about what they make and sell.

BTW, the saying "imitation is highest form of flattery" is a pile of BS!! It's called theft!!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread