evaporation of ethyl alcohol in flavors

[twgbonehead]

I also am not a chemist, but I have observed the following:

Once after doing an extraction, I had a tiny bit of everclear left over (about 1 ml). Not wanting to waste it, I licked the container (shot glass, as it happened). Immediately my entire mouth went dry; I ran to the sink and guzzled some water. I believe I serouiously damaged some tissue there, even with such a small amount.

On the other hand, I could eat a teaspoon of glycerine, and it would be fine.

I believe that during an extraction, the alcohol breaks through the cell walls, and attracts the flavor molecules. (The strong attraction is why it is very effective in extracting the flavors).

When you mix the resulting extract, the flavor molecules can also be attracted to PG or VG (which have 2 and 3 OH's, as opposed to ethanol's 1). The alcohol is able to evaporate, leaving much of the flavoring attached to the PG or VG. On the other hand, if you try to just evaporate the ethanol, there is nothing else for the flavor molecules to be attracted to, so they go into the air along with the ethanol.

I would guess this might also be why an ultrasonic cleaner helps speed up the process. The mechanical energy from the ultrasound helps split the alcohol and the flavor molecule, allowing the flavor molecule to then be attracted to one of the other OH's out there (and the alcohol is outnumbered by the PG and VG both because of concentrations and number of sites).

This is a total Wild-A**ed-Guess. I know only a little chemistry, and NO organic chemistry. Perhaps someone who is a little more up on the subject could point the way?

 

[Dave_in_OK]

So you extracted one in vodka, then added pg to it after evaporating for some time, right? What did you extract with the other, just straight pg? Am I reading that right?

Yes I did one cigar in PG Only and another one in vodka. I then measured the vodka liquid (12ml) I then added 12ml of PG to the vodka which I then allowed to evaporate until about 10ml remained.

 

[MarkyD]

In winemaking, oxidation of flavonoids and the method by which that is done is what gives each wine its body and character. The same can be said for concentrated flavorings and extracts. Basically, anything you can do to "incorporate" more oxygen into them will speed the process along. The flavonoids are heavier and held in solution/suspension by the pg (or vg) in the concentrate. Considering the deep, rich colors that my concentrated flavorings have turned, the flavonoids are certainly still in there because the alcohol is now gone and pg is not ruby-red or golden orange in color. All I did was expel the old alcohol-laden air from the flavor bottles, drawing fresh air in, then shake bottle. Repeat as often as possible for 2 days. Try with cigar extracts too by turning the extract mixture over, squeezing, stirring, etc.

 

[we2rcool]

Fwiw, we're herbalists and make over a hundred different kinds of tinctures (extracts). There are those with alcohol-sensitivities that prefer not to ingest alcohol. They put a 'dose' (a teaspoon to a tablespoon) of the alcohol-extracted tincture into a glass, splash boiling water on it and allow it to cool before ingesting it. This causes the majority of the alcohol to evaporate...but it does not lower the amount of herb that is in the tincture.

Based on the above, I'm thinking that evaporating the alcohol should not cause 'flavor chemicals' to evaporate along with the alcohol. My understand is that the alcohol does not alter the chemicals that create the flavors - so if those chemicals don't normally evaporate, mixing them with water/pg/vg/pga and then removing (evaporating) the alcohol shouldn't cause the chemicals to evaporate with the alcohol.

In fact, many herbalists (and those that extract other plant chemicals), actually do water or alcohol extractions, allow the water/alcohol to evaporate and then add the resulting 'concentrated powder' (or sludge/goo/whatever it is) to other herbs or chemicals.

Another thought: allowing the alcohol to evaporate off of the flavor (rather than evaporating it out of the final mix), could substantially impact the concentration of the flavor...making it much more intense/concentrated - hence a need for altering ones recipes.

If I were going to do that (evaporate the alcohol out of a flavor bottle)...I would mark a line indicating the amount of liquid in the bottle before I started evaporating away the alcohol. When I was satisfied that the majority of alcohol was gone, I would replace it with VG (or PG), so that the concentration of the flavoring would be the same as it was originally.

 

[MarkyD]

If I were going to do that (evaporate the alcohol out of a flavor bottle)...I would mark a line indicating the amount of liquid in the bottle before I started evaporating away the alcohol.

I did that, and very little quantity was lost. The effect on flavor was a mellowing and removal of the harshness of the alcohol. The ability to go straight from mixing to having something nearly instantly vapable was dramatic.

 

[we2rcool]

Let us not forget (for those that don't already know it), that the greatest majority of 'flavors' we use for vaping are NOT true "extractions" of anything. They are chemicals that try to mimic the flavor of something that is 'real'. The addition of alcohol to these chemicals might be considered a 'stabilizer', a 'carrier', a 'diluter', liquid that dissolves chemicals, or a 'preservative'. But the greatest majority of the flavorings that we use for mixing with VG/PG/nic have never seen a plant, flower, fruit, or other type of food/candy/spice/herb.

 

[we2rcool]

I did that, and very little quantity was lost. The effect on flavor was a mellowing and removal of the harshness of the alcohol. The ability to go straight from mixing to having something nearly instantly vapable was dramatic.

I'm guessing that might vary from manufacturer to manufacturer - perhaps even from flavor to flavor (???). Some of the alcohol in those bottles smells mighty intense.

Btw, great thread!

 

[BigDaddio]

I was looking up alcohol in this forum as I started experimenting with it. I get a very strong taste of alcohol in some of the "premium" liquids I vape, mostly five pawns. I shot in about 3% rum in one of my mixes, PB based and yea it really brought up the flavor quite a bit. Did heat steep to take of the edge. Also tried some vodka in a fruit mix, similar results. I think the alcohol adds to the olfactory notes, the smell, and seems to brighten or deepen flavors. I definitely get a similar aftertaste to that 5P. I am going to try some bourbon. I may even "reduce" the liquor a bit by simmering over heat.

The idea of simmering a little took me back to the cooking, if you look at cooking when you use alcohol it really doesn't cook off very fast or very much depending on how you cook. Basically to really reduce the alcohol off take 2.5-3 hours of simmering. Alcohol added to something and not cooked at all will reduce to about 70% if left open overnight. So your steeping is not really removing much alcohol at all. But probably just the hard vaporous edge, leaving enough to carry the flavors.

I am going to experiment with the hootch, see what it brings to the table, so far it's been pretty positive in my mixes.