fakes, clones, copies

[imeothanasis]

I was talking to Greek seller yesterday and he asked me why China doesnt clone China products.

Oupssss! Nice question. They copy modders but they dont copy each other. Also China doesnt copy the brand names of China products.

What that means to me? It means that Europe, USA and other places are attacked by China. They want to destroy the e-cig market at once and they want to be the only e-cig makers.

Do we have to accept this situation? Are we weaker than them? Maybe less clever? Or simply more lazy?

Some EU-USA stores take advantage of that situation and they make it worse by selling those fakes or clones. This must be stopped too. And of course forums must take a serious action on this. If we put in a black list the stores that sell fakes and forums stop all activity of fakes then we can come back to normal. If not, China will take over this business and all our tries and inventions will be forgotten

 

[Itshak]

I totally agree and I have one Idea.
I think all western big brands of E juices manufactures and device manufactures
And small shop modders Should form some kind of a commercial union.
This union should agree on standards and other issues and provide members some kind
Of operative platform.
Just for example,if western brands and modder won't let shop who sell clone to sell
There genuine products those e shops will carry only clones,and pepole know them as clones shops.
This simple act can reduce interest of those shops to sell clones,as they will sell them only.
But now it's not so,those shops sell clones and sell genuine stuff under the same roof,
and people see.
Every industry have some kind of commercial union.
I think this Idea should put on a table and discuss between modders first then between brands or with brands,
and I do believe this can be accomplish to the benefits of all.
It's more hard to go against big block of businesses then to eliminate one at a time,
and by so achieve big cartels.
You talking a bout china factories like some regular business from western point of view.
But there is a big different some of those business are bigger in power and capabilities
then all western small manufacture Together.
Got that??
Now think on it and you'll see there must be some kind of commercial union!

 

[wonner]

I was talking to Greek seller yesterday and he asked me why China doesnt clone China products...

There is honor among thieves.

 

[dspin]

On different forums including ECF - there is always a co-op going on to buy clones even cheaper all the time. There are clones for everything, even if suppliers stopped selling there are many people who will buy in co-ops.

You will never stop people from doing this - they care of no one but themselves and use having no money as the biggest exuse.

 

[dspin]

While Im at it - I would like to thank China -the world's second largest economy and closer to the Philippines than other major donors of assistance to the typhoon-ravaged archipelago.

I want to thank them for their initial offer of 100,000.00 Since that pledge they have upped it to 1.6 million after many countries threw a fit.

Even the swedish furniture store - Ikea pledged 2.7 million right away.

Think people - do you really want to give money to a country who copies ideas and is cheapest around in donating to a terrible disaster

 

[justinred]

Another worn excuse is that modders limit production and stuff are always out of stock so that is why they turn to clones. Total bs as proven by ithaka. Now they use the excuse "try clones first before buying original". Cowdung!

 

[dspin]

Well said Justin, well said. Sad thing is, there are so many people who buy clones, you will never stop it - too late. Couple forums wont allow selling clones, etc but----------

 

[Aal_]

Imeo, The cloning was solved ages ago. Patents and copyrights. I am sorry to bring this up again. But this is the truth. Why would anyone with authority, including ECF staff, pursue a losing battle against cloners if there is no legal aspect behind it. No one cares for honor or integrity, money talks, BS walks. All big business man screw each other to reach their goal. Bankers take your money. Politicians lie for a living. But what is common with all these is that they do it in a legal way. Look I have seen in Greece and Italy and other countries how the street sellers are raided by police every now and then because they sell counterfeit items. Plus shops get closed down if they sell a counterfeit item and someone sue them. I am sorry but this is the only way to do it. If cloners are still cloning HUGE BIG companies like NIKE/GUCCI/ARMANI etc... they will be all over the successful small businesses like ecig manufacturers who don't have patents or anything to protect them.

By the way, I read somewhere that China is not cloning supertmanufacturing products because they have some kind of patent or copyright. I think it is right, and believe me, the supert products are way easier to clone than GG.

 

[Jojobo]

This is an age old topic...this is much bigger than any of us and it is in every facet of life.
Please don't shoot me and attack me...this is my personal opinion and I certainly mean no harm to any modder out there:

"Legally there is no theft"...there is no copy unless...wait for it...UNLESS there is a patent - defined: A patent (/ˈpætənt/ or /ˈpeɪtənt/) is a set of exclusive rights granted by a sovereign state to an inventor or their assignee for a limited period of time, in exchange for the public disclosure of the invention. An invention is a solution to a specific technological problem, and may be a product or a process.[1]:17 Patents are a form of intellectual property.
PERIOD.
If an inventor believes that his/her creation is truly his/hers and takes the appropriate steps to patent those ideas and creation, then 'legally' he/she has the right to clare copy/clone. Not taking the time, effort, legal action to patent is not an excuse.

There are specific bylaws to a patent to protect those who declare to be the first to invent and create. Anyone can make a declaration publicly but it is not legal until the patent is approved.

That being said, we all know that there is a difference between legal and moral law. I personally have never knowingly purchased a clone. But we also know that there are quality products that have a silent war of who did what first. This would not happen if there were a patent taken out because the only ones that really know who came up with what 1st is the modder themself. Taking a patent is the closest proof of who does what 1st and who can accuse of copy/clone and take legal action.

I personal take issue with cloning and copy and that is why I personally don't purchase them. But who can say that I don't have a copy of someone else's inspiration? All I can do is do my due diligence to research and form my own conclusion. Why? because there are no patents to help me determine that.

Clones are clear copies and some clones are very very difficult to differenciate between original and clone. Then there are copies and those are much more difficult to draw the line.

Everything in our life is inspired by something else. We wouldn't be as technologically advanced if we didn't have copies and "inspired by" in our life. We wouldn't have the choices of computers, TV's, refridgerators, cars, etc...It is a constant competition that pushes people to come up with something bigger and better.

I think it is terrible to cost so much to patent but if something was my heart and my creation, I personally would pay for it. Then if someone invaded my patent, I would sue for every dollar of their sales and proceeds and then some. That would make up for my patent costs. It's a vicious but necessary evil because until a modder patents "legally" it's not theirs to claim.

I could talk about this all day and this is something will be forever debated.
this is just an abbreviated JMHO.

 

[Jojobo]

Where do you dry the line? Who made the 1st carto? everything else is a copy/clone. Who made the 1st "ego" style and what is a clone off the ego? Who made the 1st tube VV? was that provari? then every tube style provari inspired should never be sold in a shop. which came 1st ? the chicken or the egg? If you do this for the "large modders" that make many different things of advanced technologies , you must do for the small modder such as the ones that created the 1st metal tube with a coil and with stuffing in it.
99.9% of the vaping shops would be put out of business over night. Every single vape shop that I know also has "clones/copies" of smaller items such as what we would concider disposible devices. Even GG supplier sell clones...not clones of GG but clones non the less.

I totally agree and I have one Idea.
I think all western big brands of E juices manufactures and device manufactures
And small shop modders Should form some kind of a commercial union.
This union should agree on standards and other issues and provide members some kind
Of operative platform.
Just for example,if western brands and modder won't let shop who sell clone to sell
There genuine products those e shops will carry only clones,and pepole know them as clones shops.
This simple act can reduce interest of those shops to sell clones,as they will sell them only.
But now it's not so,those shops sell clones and sell genuine stuff under the same roof,
and people see.
Every industry have some kind of commercial union.
I think this Idea should put on a table and discuss between modders first then between brands or with brands,
and I do believe this can be accomplish to the benefits of all.
It's more hard to go against big block of businesses then to eliminate one at a time,
and by so achieve big cartels.
You talking a bout china factories like some regular business from western point of view.
But there is a big different some of those business are bigger in power and capabilities
then all western small manufacture Together.
Got that??
Now think on it and you'll see there must be some kind of commercial union!

 

[house mouse]

On different forums including ECF - there is always a co-op going on to buy clones even cheaper all the time. There are clones for everything, even if suppliers stopped selling there are many people who will buy in co-ops.

You will never stop people from doing this - they care of no one but themselves and use having no money as the biggest exuse.

They don't allow counterfeit co-ops on ECF. Clones yes, 1:1 counterfeits with engravings, serial #s etc. no. If you happen to see a co-op for a counterfeit mod/atty on here, use the report post button. The thread will get taken down.

 

[Itshak]

I see your point Jojobo form legally perspective.

Wish there were more with this moral responsibility,of you.

But we did not go down to small details just put thought in very general form.
When we said clone it's cannot include "inspired by" and not the use of technology idea in concept.
This are different things.

But the term clone is more specific,and there for more easy to approach a bit.
Ithakas that looks like Ithakas (with or without number)are like Rolex that look like Rolex- clones!

Other devices that use kind of technically Idea in different designs are not clones!
And also not copies legally.

The term is only valid to something that on first look do look like the real thing.
The use of other innovation is not against the low if it's not patent
as long as you won't try to duplicate and I mean
Duplicate the Original look.
Zmax use the Idea of Provari but when someone see it he don't this is a Provari.
Ithaka that looks like Ithaks and Other GG's like Ody that look like them are very very wrong/Wong!
So I was refer in my first post to the term clone for what it is and not generalized it to include
More.
I think your not to blame for writing the things as you did we do understand them and that you
support this all by heart and by act.
You do by Originals! .
But some kind of measure must be take,this why I said that the all issue should discuss much further
To details.
I do believe that this is very very disturbing to inventor who's joy the fun of creating,to see his
Ideas go on selling just like they are.
Cartel are something not good in the end,if people won't fight against it,they will find them self
Working for it ,or loose money to it,with it overcome all there rights.
Modder can't work this alone as separates a form of aligns is proven in other industries,
To give better legal consultant to small manufacture how it's best to act and maneuver
In all this.
But will se what come out of it.

 

[Aal_]

If you patent the way the atomizer work you won't have a problem with inspired by or looks like or whatever

 

[Itshak]

I would have said go for it,but I don't see it happening because of to many reasons.
And I don't know enough patent rules if this can be done??
This way we and up with one tungsten bulb maker and one fluorescent bulb maker??
Because they patent the way there bulbs work?

No one will dare to clone Provari one on one or Darwin even if they could.
Small modders can't just stop work and invent while they go on arrange things.
There are always new Ideas and by the time the patent is done
the device may be outdated.
Small workshop are too easy prey,and all the best in e cigs
is coming from small workshops,and they just don't act for it.
They are just not built for it as they are.

I think that the most logic is to look for similar industries maybe jeweler and see what system
They have there,and maybe follow it as a beginning.

 

[Jojobo]

Itshak,
we are talking two different things...asking people to take a moral stand is one thing and a good thing.

asking people to take a legal stand is a totally different.

Creating counterfeits is another category as well. ECF should take a stand against counterfeits and I think ECF does what it can to keep up with banning counterfeits and I think ECF will evolve on this on a continuous basis because there are more and more counterfeits out there and these companies are getting better and better at it. This is just an educated guess on my part because I am not involved in the bylaws of ECF. We have to keep one thing in mind, ECF is private. I don't think there is a legal obligation for this because unless there is a patent, nothing is illegal just immoral. It is a forum for everything regarding vaping. Everything...even the part of vaping that we don't like.

I understand that you are defending Imeo and that's great...we all want to defend Imeo and all the other great modders that create quality tools to keep us off the cancersticks.

Let's take something really really simple...Let's take M&M candies...should we ban all companies that candy coat a small drop of chocolate? or should we ban all companies that candy coat a small drop of chocolate that brand each with the famous "M" on each of them? I know this sounds elementary but it really has the same concept. Asking grocery stores to sell only named brand items or asking vaping stores to only stock name brand items is just not realistic in my opinion.

 

[Muggs]

On different forums including ECF - there is always a co-op going on to buy clones even cheaper all the time. There are clones for everything, even if suppliers stopped selling there are many people who will buy in co-ops.

You will never stop people from doing this - they care of no one but themselves and use having no money as the biggest exuse.

Excuse? So I have to hear what the alternative is. Say you have 2 kids, their daycare, a wife, a house, cars, etc and you live paycheck to paycheck for your kids and you want a mech mod but need enough money for gas for the week?

What are the other options? How do you get a mech mod for $40 withoiut grabing a clone? Some people can't justify spending $200 on a shiny battery case when they have better more important places to spend their money.

So is it good to take money away from your family just because something was made in the U.S? Half of the stuff we all own is made in China and chances are you ended up with that one because the price was right and you felt it was a good deal not even knowing where it was made.

 

[Itshak]

Well I admit I'm not neutral on the matter and that's by choose.
Becous being neutral sometimes is not for the best,and help the other side.
Imeo is like an analog to some bigger problem the free economy world suffer.
If western sosiety can't do enough to preserve Imeo's we suffer.
We need Imeo's everywhere in every industeries and future tech development programs.
I did not say what I post should act apon word for word.
I did say however that this must go to higher levels and further steps shuld form this way or that way.
I did not offer specific act,just general Idea to built some modder group that will
Keep there interest for the better.
And I think this is very good Idea if they can overcome there diffrences,(not easy to do).
You know china gov' do help a lot to there manufactures,and support them.
we give inputs,and maybe some of those will help in some aspects.
Sure hope so no secret here.

 

[Itshak]

Excuse? So I have to hear what the alternative is. Say you have 2 kids, their daycare, a wife, a house, cars, etc and you live paycheck to paycheck for your kids and you want a mech mod but need enough money for gas for the week?

What are the other options? How do you get a mech mod for $40 withoiut grabing a clone? Some people can't justify spending $200 on a shiny battery case when they have better more important places to spend their money.

So is it good to take money away from your family just because something was made in the U.S? Half of the stuff we all own is made in China and chances are you ended up with that one because the price was right and you felt it was a good deal not even knowing where it was made.

Belive it or not pepole here do understands this,but there are 40$ mods out there that are not a clone
Or exact copie of some other work and design.
We are not against china as china and not against 40$ mods,
But there is no excuse to duplicate one on one someone els design.
If this will be aloud then nobody will want to design anything better for future.
We don't want that to happen do we?

 

[imeothanasis]

we can stop it easily Dave. The only we have to do is to stop any activity like this. Without internet the cloners cant work. They are based on tools like forums and shops.

On different forums including ECF - there is always a co-op going on to buy clones even cheaper all the time. There are clones for everything, even if suppliers stopped selling there are many people who will buy in co-ops.

You will never stop people from doing this - they care of no one but themselves and use having no money as the biggest exuse.

 

[imeothanasis]

exactly Just. We all knew that they would find another excuse. We all know that they are the biggest thiefs in the world.Thats why we have to bit the snake now that is still young. If it becomes a full aged anaconda, it will eat us for breakfast

Another worn excuse is that modders limit production and stuff are always out of stock so that is why they turn to clones. Total bs as proven by ithaka. Now they use the excuse "try clones first before buying original". Cowdung!