FDA FDA Bans Pure and Highly Concentrated Caffeine

[Rossum]

No, this is not directly related to vaping, but... Have a look at their press release here. Then consider the fact that they're doing this strictly via "guidance". No "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" and normal regulatory process, just instant "fiat". What follows is an except from the actual guidance document:

These products are typically meant to be diluted before being consumed, and not consumed “as is.” An amount of highly concentrated liquid caffeine that would be safe for a given individual to consume in a properly diluted solution could nonetheless be unsafe for the same individual if the highly concentrated liquid were consumed directly. In the reasonably foreseeable scenario where a consumer makes an error diluting the product, or does not dilute it at all, that consumer could ingest a toxic quantity of caffeine.

Substitute one word, "nicotine" for "caffeine", and you've got a template for an instant ban on DIY nic base being sold to consumers. No notice, just done.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I have a question though. .. isn't this unconstitutional?

Can congress cede the power to make law to the FDA like this? Because basically they have..

Congress made one law giving basic law making control to the FDA, and it seems unconstitutional since no one in the FDA is an elected official so basically they are making laws (such as its illegal to sell caffeine concentrate to consumers) and we have zero representation concerning these new laws.

Yep. It’s technically presidential powers. he appoints them. All the regulatory agencies are like that.

No president has the power to make law. It is the job of congress. And apparently congress passed their duties to the FDA with the tobacco Act BUT not for anything else that I am aware of.

And, if they do, as appears to be the case here, if not challenged by anyone in court, they will just do it because no one is screaming and yelling. Big step in losing our republic as we have known it.

Yes the president makes appointments to heads of agencies, but mostly they are just a front person and they have to be vetted and approved via proper channels from other parts of the government.

All of this just shows how far off base and corrupt the gov has become. You should be afraid, very afraid. I know I am as I see our freedoms continuing to be mutilated. It seems no one gives a crap anymore. OR they think someone else will do it. OR the children are not properly being taught in school how the gov is suppose to work. Our nation has become sheep, its shameful.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Since JUUL contains about 60mg/ml nicotine, and since Vuse contains about 50mg/ml, it could be difficult for FDA to justify banning sales of e-liquid containing 100mg/ml of nicotine directly to consumers (while exempting Juul, Vuse and other products that contain slightly lower levels of nicotine).

FDA just revised its Guidance for Ingredient Registration of Deemed Tobacco Products (including vapor) to exempt components that are sold or distributed for further manufacturing (i.e. aren’t packaged for final sale to customers), including electronic components, batteries, chargers, software, cartomizers, coils, wicks, tanks and drip tips; allows a single listing of ingredients for vapor products with identical compositions (e.g. same e-liquid product in different size bottles).
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM527044.pdf

 

[Rossum]

They already do that though with 100mg being the highest concentration you can buy.

Horsefeathers. 100mg is the highest that most vendors sell, but there are vendors who will sell much higher concentrations. We're just not allowed to link to them here on ECF, but this it isn't due to any law or regulation, at least not yet. I'll also speculate that when such a regulation does come about, the limit for sale to consumers will be lower than 100mg.

 

[CagedSpam]

Damn, time to roll back the FDA...

This is getting ridiculous. Something something frogs and boiling water.

 

[Letitia]

When enough people decide to quit letting our government do our thinking for us maybe some things will change. Americans are lazy, greedy. self involved, and spoiled. It's our own fault for letting it get this far. So how does one best break down a gallon of nic for storage?

 

[440BB]

Substitute one word, "nicotine" for "caffeine", and you've got a template for an instant ban on DIY nic base being sold to consumers. No notice, just done.

I had the same reaction. I can't see why they'd stop at caffeine. All the same justifications. Damn.

 

[Rossum]

Is it too late to start saving for a walk in freezer and 55 gal drum of nic?

You don't need a walk-in freezer to store 55 gallons of nic. One cubic foot is over 7 gallons, and chest freezers with 21 to 24 cubic feet of capacity are readily available at any appliance store.

 

[bombastinator]

No president has the power to make law. It is the job of congress. And apparently congress passed their duties to the FDA with the Tobacco Act BUT not for anything else that I am aware of.

And, if they do, as appears to be the case here, if not challenged by anyone in court, they will just do it because no one is screaming and yelling. Big step in losing our republic as we have known it.

Yes the president makes appointments to heads of agencies, but mostly they are just a front person and they have to be vetted and approved via proper channels from other parts of the government.

All of this just shows how far off base and corrupt the gov has become. You should be afraid, very afraid. I know I am as I see our freedoms continuing to be mutilated. It seems no one gives a crap anymore. OR they think someone else will do it. OR the children are not properly being taught in school how the gov is suppose to work. Our nation has become sheep, its shameful.

Yes and no. The appointees have to be approved, but after that it becomes a question of theoretical vs practical. In practice after that the president can tell them what to do and fire them if they don’t do it. This is one reason why so many people are being fired lately. I agree about the general governmental corruption and lack of understanding though. There used to be a class in public schools called civics that taught such things. It was removed though. A lot of older people don’t understand just how weak the American school system has become. Things they were taught are often no longer taught.

 

[puffon]

Well I ordered two more liters of heartland vape for under $100 shipped. I was happy with the price, and I'm just glad to be freaking DONE. This ant (not grasshopper) needs a rest from thinking about it anymore.

We rarely get electrical outages, but if it happens I may FREAK. LOL. The husband has been discussing solar panels though, I might just start encouraging him.

Anna

I wouldn't worry too much about losing power short term.
Went without power for 7 days after last years hurricane.
Defrosted the freezer...4 year old nic, good as new...

 

[Rossum]

We rarely get electrical outages, but if it happens I may FREAK. LOL.

I wouldn't worry too much about losing power short term.
Went without power for 7 days after last years hurricane.
Defrosted the freezer...4 year old nic, good as new...

Agreed. I've mixed with some older nic that spent a week or so at ambient temperature due to Mathew, and it was fine.

I also have a set of samples in clear bottles that spent a week or so at ambient temperature due to Irma, and there was very little change compared to the samples that just sit at room temperature all the time. See here.

In another month or so, I'll be mixing down some nic that's been through both of these outages, and I'm confident it will be fine too. Bottom line (for Anna): By all means, keep your nic in the freezer, but there's no reason to freak over a power outage.

 

[stols001]

I swear... I'm buying my last two liters of nic today. I don't think I use "concentrated" coffee unless out and about (Starbucks) I wonder what they're thinking of this law.

I read that book, "The history of Coffee" I think it was called, and we've had "coffee wars" in the US, including pricing, but I have NO idea how that "decision" came about, and it sounded stealthy. Gah. Oh well, at least it is ONLY two liters, (Wizard Labs is 20% off until tomorrow BTW in case anyone uses them) but thankfully, I've been stockpiling like a little ant. Don't want to lose at the HOME STRETCH either. LOL.

Anna

 

[sofarsogood]

And don't forget the chance of a trade war with China. The original Pico has remained my preferred mod since it came out. I've intended to get a couple more, been procrastinating on that.

Go read anything on the FDA website. Every word is written by lawyers. Our health is the last thing on their minds.

 

[Lessifer]

Wow... There is an Avatar I haven't seen in a Long Time.

Welcome Back Les. Hope things are going well for you.

Thanks Zoid, I took a break, the fda/cdc/public health/tobacco control are bad for my blood pressure.

As for the whole issue of the executive branch passing “laws,” well, Congress can’t even be bothered to read the actual laws that they do pass, of course they’ll leave the minutiae of regulations to the agencies.

 

[Rossum]

Since a JUUL only holds a few milliliters max.

WB, Les!

A Juul pod holds about about 3/4 of a ml...

But given the nic hit they deliver, most people would be hard pressed to go through more than one pod in a day.

I just dug out my almost three year old Juul 'cause I've got someone temporarily in the office who's a smoker, and I know there are times she's jonesing... (Vaping is allowed, smoking isn't).

Anyway, I checked it last night and it still works fine, and one or two small puffs from that thing are the equivalent of a whole lot of much bigger puffs from my normal MTL squonker...

 

[Lessifer]

WB, Les!

A Juul pod holds about about 3/4 of a ml...

But given the nic hit they deliver, most people would be hard pressed to go through more than one pod in a day.

I just dug out my almost three year old Juul 'cause I've got someone temporarily in the office who's a smoker, and I know there are times she's jonesing... (Vaping is allowed, smoking isn't).

Anyway, I checked it last night and it still works fine, and one or two small puffs from that thing are the equivalent of a whole lot of much bigger puffs from my normal MTL squonker...

Thanks Rossum

I couldn't remember how much they hold, I never actually tried one. I do remember people saying they hit you like a freight train though. I'm good with my 3-6 mg/ml now.

 

[CagedSpam]

Is it too late to start saving for a walk in freezer and 55 gal drum of nic?

BTW thank you @stols001 for the tip about Wizardlabs and 20% off.

 

[stols001]

Well I ordered two more liters of heartland vape for under $100 shipped. I was happy with the price, and I'm just glad to be freaking DONE. This ant (not grasshopper) needs a rest from thinking about it anymore.

We rarely get electrical outages, but if it happens I may FREAK. LOL. The husband has been discussing solar panels though, I might just start encouraging him.

Anna

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Well I ordered two more liters of heartland vape for under $100 shipped. I was happy with the price, and I'm just glad to be freaking DONE. This ant (not grasshopper) needs a rest from thinking about it anymore.

We rarely get electrical outages, but if it happens I may FREAK. LOL. The husband has been discussing solar panels though, I might just start encouraging him.

Anna

This nic is some of the best I have found with a decent price. Absolutely no off smell and as clear as can be.

DIY E-Liquid Nicotine 1 Liter

 

[mcclintock]

^^-- I'm currently using WL nic that's about 3 years old and spent its first 4 months at room temp. It's finally taking on the very slightest yellow tint.