Fda crackdown looms

[Liberate_Yourself]

I accept your apology, and I hold no ill will toward you. I am sorry if I came across the wrong way as well. I never want to make enemies, only friends!

The way I see it, whether it's Quasi-Legal or Legal, the key word is Legal. "Water Pipes" are not illegal in any state in the union because of the way they are marketed by the people who make them and sell them. The only one's who have ever been hassled or shutdown are the one's that strayed from the proven marketing approach that all of the other's who are still in business are using. You may cringe at the subject matter, but the data speaks for itself. There are thousands of "Water Pipe" shops all across the US. There could also be thousands of "Personal Vaporizer" shops as well if the proven "Water Pipe" marketing approach is used. Just my "Un-Educated" opinion!

Yes, but the substance that is used with them is illegal. I never want to see a day that eCigs/portable vaporizers/etc fall into the same class.

I think it is ridiculous that there is so much controversy about these devices among the powers that be.. however they do have a point. I am sure that they see the increasing popularity of the devices, and that means that more Americans are going to be using them. This in turn means that if there is something potentially dangerous about them, a large group of people will be affected.. and it is their responsibility to prevent said situation. What we need to do is legitimate clinical testing. Prove that the vapor produced by these devices is harmless, and theoretically, it is smooth sailing ahead.

Anyone want to donate some funds to the cause? If there are 3,000 registered members on the forum, if each member donated $100 to the cause instead of to a new gadget, we could raise $300,000. Combine that with donations by non-forum members and profit sharing efforts by the suppliers, and we have a nice chunk of change to begin testing. There has already been some talk among suppliers to do this, so it is just a matter of time. Start savin your pesos buds.. the future of vaping depends on it.

Honestly, the question that dances around my head is this: These are growing in popularity by the day.. why hasn't Big tobacco tried putting their hand in the cookie jar? They have the money for testing, and I am sure that by now, they have seen the potential. Hmmm..

 

[Spikey]

Yes, but the substance that is used with them is illegal. I never want to see a day that eCigs/portable vaporizers/etc fall into the same class.

I think it is ridiculous that there is so much controversy about these devices among the powers that be.. however they do have a point. I am sure that they see the increasing popularity of the devices, and that means that more Americans are going to be using them. This in turn means that if there is something potentially dangerous about them, a large group of people will be affected.. and it is their responsibility to prevent said situation. What we need to do is legitimate clinical testing. Prove that the vapor produced by these devices is harmless, and theoretically, it is smooth sailing ahead.

Anyone want to donate some funds to the cause? If there are 3,000 registered members on the forum, if each member donated $100 to the cause instead of to a new gadget, we could raise $300,000. Combine that with donations by non-forum members and profit sharing efforts by the suppliers, and we have a nice chunk of change to begin testing. There has already been some talk among suppliers to do this, so it is just a matter of time. Start savin your pesos buds.. the future of vaping depends on it.

Honestly, the question that dances around my head is this: These are growing in popularity by the day.. why hasn't Big Tobacco tried putting their hand in the cookie jar? They have the money for testing, and I am sure that by now, they have seen the potential. Hmmm..

Hey Greg! I have no doubt that they have already started working on this (I don't "know" anything as a fact... but I can't see they would pass up this opportunity... they are likely hiring mechanics and scientists as we type lol!).

Of course the contibution funds for testing are all good and well... but even if we could raise a million... their tests would be done before we had enough funding to start ours... so maybe we need to contact the tobacco companies and present them with a proposition? You help us by doing a multi million dollar study if we provide the participants... and we will help you make craploads of $

 

[Walrus]

you know... this is exactly why i'm libertarian

How's that working out? I always thought it would be a boring job. You know... learning the Dewey Decimal system and all that. Wait... I thought you said "Librarian". Never mind

 

[wv2win]

wv2win:

It isn't that you should deny the use of nicotine, but you should avoid labeling its use in the context of a 'treatment' or 'therapy' (like NRT). First of all its just not true... do vapers intend to quit vaping? Probably not. All approved NRT is intended to be weened off. But second of all, serious studies need to be used if this is going to labeled any sort of medical device or treatment for nicotine withdrawal.

It is a tobacco product that you use at your leisure. Not for health purposes! Don't make health claims, that is the point. That invites the FDA.

I'm not saying it should be "labeled" an NRT. I'm saying many use it for that purpose and we should not deny that fact in any discussion about this product or we will appear disingenuous at best. Are all products with nicotine, other than cigarettes, an NRT? And should they be labeled NRT's? Is a product an NRT based on ingredients or based on purpose? IF someone chews nicotine gum because they like the taste instead of for the purpose of avoiding tobacco does that mean it is not an NRT?

 

[Liberate_Yourself]

Hey Greg! I have no doubt that they have already started working on this (I don't "know" anything as a fact... but I can't see they would pass up this opportunity... they are likely hiring mechanics and scientists as we type lol!).

Of course the contibution funds for testing are all good and well... but even if we could raise a million... their tests would be done before we had enough funding to start ours... so maybe we need to contact the tobacco companies and present them with a proposition? You help us by doing a multi million dollar study if we provide the participants... and we will help you make craploads of $

Trust me, they were already on my list of people to call.

 

[GrimmGreen]

How's that working out? I always thought it would be a boring job. You know... learning the Dewey Decimal system and all that. Wait... I thought you said "Librarian". Never mind

i'm actually a libertarian librarian ... so go figure

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Yes, but the substance that is used with them is illegal. I never want to see a day that eCigs/portable vaporizers/etc fall into the same class.

Listen, I wish it wouldn't be that way either. In the end, all I care about is being able to "legally" buy the devices. As it stands now, that future seems to be in doubt.

 

[Liberate_Yourself]

Listen, I wish it wouldn't be that way either. In the end, all I care about is being able to "legally" buy the devices. As it stands now, that future seems to be in doubt.

Even if that means not legally being able to buy or use the juice?

We are not talking about drug paraphernalia here.. let's not start making it look as such. We are talking about a device that vaporizes nicotine, good 'ol h20, an organic compound (PG, which is FDA GRAS), and flavorings. The only substance that requires any attention is the Nicotine.. which is freely, readily, and legally available in not only cigarettes, but in many vegetables as well.

 

[Faethe]

Class action? The precedent being the recent successful suits against the tobacco companies?

Not gonna work but a nice statement. I would sign my name on that.

OK, I'm done ranting now. Someone else talk for awhile

P.S. Anyone know of a US supplier that sells smoking liquid by the liter?

Ok.

Step 1: People ...... off at Cigarette Taxes

Step 2: People quit smoking and find an alternative

Step 3: Government eliminates access to it. Insists you go back to cigarettes or alternatives that cost rough 4x more and are inefficient, and manufactured by Big Pharma

The above does not necessarily have to coincide with reality. All you have to do is get people to start repeating it. Take out the stigma of smoking, insert the stigma of 'socialism' or whatever you want.

Need to contact lolyer

Need to contact PR firm or engage in PR campaign.

Ta Daaaa!

 

[Faethe]

Hey Greg! I have no doubt that they have already started working on this (I don't "know" anything as a fact... but I can't see they would pass up this opportunity... they are likely hiring mechanics and scientists as we type lol!).

Of course the contibution funds for testing are all good and well... but even if we could raise a million... their tests would be done before we had enough funding to start ours... so maybe we need to contact the tobacco companies and present them with a proposition? You help us by doing a multi million dollar study if we provide the participants... and we will help you make craploads of $

I'm pretty sure they would tell you to stuff it then attempt to steal the patent. At any rate, I can't see Big Tobacco doing anything but lol ing around in a big pile of lol at the prospect of Chinese anything gaining acceptance in this country.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Even if that means not legally being able to buy or use the juice?

We are not talking about drug paraphernalia here.. let's not start making it look as such. We are talking about a device that vaporizes nicotine, good 'ol h20, an organic compound (PG, which is FDA GRAS), and flavorings. The only substance that requires any attention is the Nicotine.. which is freely, readily, and legally available in not only cigarettes, but in many vegetables as well.

Whether you like it or not, any device that delivers a drug can be considered "Paraphernalia" in one way or another. Nicotine is a drug, last time I checked. Even though it is legal now, it could very well become illegal if the FDA and Non-Smoking zelots out there have their way. I really don't care about liquid availability, because I can easily make my own. It is the device that I can't afford to lose, and it is the device that needs to be protected from the stigma that "Nicotine" juice is putting on it. They can take my commercial juice, just don't take away my device!

 

[stpeters]

...but lol ing around in a big pile of lol at the prospect of Chinese anything gaining acceptance in this country.

Yeah, lol, it's not like our country's biggest retailer is completely stocked with items that are made in China... oh wait, never mind.

 

[stpeters]

Whether you like it or not, any device that delivers a drug can be considered "Paraphernalia" in one way or another.

That is what I was pointing out Tribble by calling legal cite. The Supreme Court (and lower courts) have repeatedly said "No, they are not" to the Police, FDA, and DEA in actual cases.

They must be a device that delivers a "legally banned or controlled substance", nothing else. Not a drug. Otherwise your coffee cup becomes a piece of "drug paraphernalia".

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

OK y'all... here's my rough draft of what I want to send... corrections are welcome...
To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Glenn Orr of Memphis TN. There are a few things I thought I should bring to your attention. I was a cigarette smoker for about 12 years until I discovered just recently the e-cigarette. This is a smoking cessation assistant. The device is very simple, yet the U.S. Food and Drug Administration seems intent on making sure this product is banned from the United States. This technology was developed in China and has spread extremely quickly around the globe. Great Britain, Australia, Hong Kong, China, Japan, all have this product in the public eye, and in some cases, fear of not understanding, and not wanting to understand the concept or the device has led to its ban. Allow me to simplify this device for you. While some models can resemble a cigarette, some do not. There are also models that resemble classic pipes and cigars as well, but they all have the same basic function. There is a battery which powers an atomizer. The atomizer is barely more than a piece of wire wound around several times into a coil. The atomizer makes contact with a wad of polyester material soaked in what is known in the trade as ‘e-Juice’. This is a mix of either Vegetable Glycerin or Propelyne Glycol, nicotine, and an all natural flavoring as the user likes. Upon smoking, as one would an actual cigarette, microsensors in the battery turn the switch on which creates a short in the atomizer coil heating up the filament wire to a temperature high enough to vaporize the liquid it’s made contact. This vapor is what is inhaled, taking the place of cigarette smoke and it’s thousands of poisons and carcinogens and replacing it with inert materials and nicotine. While nicotine in it’s raw form is a poison, every person who has made a purchase of this e-Juice has been made aware of it’s dangers, as there are more warnings when purchasing the e-Juice than there are when one purchases a pack of cigarettes. This device has helped thousands quit smoking and reduced the risk of cancer, heart attack, and stroke in these individuals. I am one such person. I have quit tobacco because of this device. I feel we owe it to the safety of our nation, and possibly the world, to allow these devices to be marketed, even further tested for the validity and potential to cut the cancer rate of this country, if not in half, then completely! This device still allows a delivery of nicotine with none, if any, harmful carcinogens in the carrier. I am not a distributor of these devices, nor am I endorsed or endorsing a particular brand. I bring this to your attention for investigation and approval, not fear, mistrust, and expulsion. I challenge the United States Food and Drug Administration, as well as the World Health Organization to put this device to the exact same tests as tobacco and compare the results, and make them public. Tobacco has cost enough lives and tax dollars in lawsuits. Let us make the choice to turn away from tobacco and to a healthier alternative. I can be reached at this e-mail address for further correspondence.

Sincerely,

Glenn A. Orr

Silver

I'm a hobby writer, and will take your letter home tonight and try to tighten it up... One thing I noticed off the bat was you called it a "smoking cessation assistant." Naughty - no no. Under no circumstances should you use the "C" word. That classifies the E-Cig as a treatment and squarely under the thumb of the FDA and only adds fuel to the fire we are trying to put out.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

That is what I was pointing out Tribble by calling legal cite. The Supreme Court (and lower courts) have repeatedly said "No, they are not" to the Police, FDA, and DEA in actual cases.

They must be a device that delivers a "legally banned or controlled substance", nothing else. Not a drug. Otherwise your coffee cup becomes a piece of "drug paraphernalia".

Caffeine is a drug, just like Nicotine. If the FDA wanted to put it in the "legally banned or controlled substance" group, then that is their legal right. Then that coffee cup would be, in fact, "drug paraphernalia". It is all a game of words and politics. It is only legal or illegal based upon the rules of that game. Separate the device from the liquid, and maybe it can be on the winning side of that game.

 

[Faethe]

Yeah, lol, it's not like our country's biggest retailer is completely stocked with items that are made in China... oh wait, never mind.

People don't see it that way. Hey - I agree. It doesn't make sense.

 

[andreo]

"I understand why people use the nicotine replacement aids,'' said Serena Chen, regional tobacco policy director of the American Lung Association in California. "But I don't understand why people want to pretend that they're smoking.''

Who gives a crap if you understand it? I don't understand why they asked someone from the ALA anyway, it's not a cigarette!

I've wondered the same thing. It seems that Cancer Society and the Lung Association normally jump on board things that don't effect what they are trying to save is because they believe that they are gateway actions that will lead to smoking tobacco.
I recently read an article (gripe) against water with nicotine in it. It had the normal template that they use to fill in most of gripes:
Kids can get to it.
Marketed towards kids.
Will create new smokers.
And then came something about leading to more forms of getting nicotine.

Next time I run into an anti-smoking person. I'm going to ask why they don't just lobby for cigarettes to be made illegal. Not that I'm for that happening. I believe that an adult should be able to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't effect the physical, mental, or financial well being of another person. But why scoot around the obvious solution? They believe that nobody should smoke. So simply make cigarettes illegal.
I wonder what type of answers I would get?

 

[Liberate_Yourself]

Very good points from everyone.. Bah.. I suppose only time and research will tell..

 

[BlueSun]

Hmm...

 

[mrl]

Hmm...

Lol love it