FDA deeming rule could happen tomorrow

[RobbyRocket]

I don't understand practically speaking how shops would submit their blends of juices for approval? I mean how is that even doable? How many varieties of juice will be available in vape shops with these regulations? And also as far as the different doses of nicotine in different flavors? Don't understand this.

I've been a Democrat, I can't ever vote Republican, but I'm fed up. Democrats have a proven record too of the past 20-30 years of viciously going after smoking and now vaping so nobody should be shocked at this. Obama signed the legislation allowing this in 09. I'd suggest voting Independent, Libertarian, if you expect to get candidates to support peoples' right to smoke.

 

[JUDGMENT AFFIRMED]

IMHO I was addicted to smoking for 38 years. I am not
now certain I was addicted to nicotine.
Mike

40 years for me and I agree the addiction was the smoking. In 2014 I changed my diy routine and started making juice without nicotine added at that time but with the intent to pull some nic out of the freezer and add at a latter date. Up to this point all my recipes included 20-24mg/ml of nic.

One day I made a pint of my favorite juice without nic and after letting it sit for a month or more, I decided to try it as it was. I obviously could tell/feel the absence of nic, but it was my favorite recipe, and it wasn't as difficult to do as I thought it might be - vaped that pint in no time and haven't taken any nic out of the freezer in 2015 or 2016. But I have it and may get some here soon - without any worry of addition. Good luck all.

 

[zoiDman]

I got a response today, one day after sending the letter on hr2058 to my local rep. Pre-canned, undoubtedly, but at least it was well written, on the topic.

People Shouldn't expect a hand written letter from their Reps.

But know that somewhere, in some DataBase, a counter was just Incremented Up by 1 in the Supports HR2058 field.

And if 300,000 more people did what you just did, then that db field would have a value of 300,117. Instead of the 117 it has Now.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't understand practically speaking how shops would submit their blends of juices for approval? I mean how is that even doable? How many varieties of juice will be available in vape shops with these regulations? And also as far as the different doses of nicotine in different flavors? Don't understand this.

I've been a Democrat, I can't ever vote Republican, but I'm fed up. Democrats have a proven record too of the past 20-30 years of viciously going after smoking and now vaping so nobody should be shocked at this. Obama signed the legislation allowing this in 09. I'd suggest voting Independent, Libertarian, if you expect to get candidates to support peoples' right to smoke.

My dark cloud estimate for how many liquids will be available under these regs, when they're fully enforced? Zero, maybe a handful.

This is my short reading understanding:
If I have one flavor, and I want to offer that in 4 nic strengths, including 0 nic, that's 4 products. If I want to offer 4 pg/vg mix ratios that's 16 products, each requiring their own application. If I want to offer two sizes, say 15ml and 30ml, that's 32 applications, though I can use some of the data from the 15ml applications for the 30ml applications, when they're the same nic and vg/pg ratio.

Add to that, for a product that is JUST an e-liquid, not in a sealed delivery system, my testing will have to include the effects of various delivery systems on the toxicological, environmental, and psychological impacts of my product. Atomizers and power sources.

Let's say I happen to get those products actually approved. If I change the packaging, I have to file an SE application. If one of my ingredient sources changes, I have to file an SE application, etc.

I hope this won't really be the case, but that's what I've understood so far. Of course I'm not a lawyer, or an industry expert.

 

[RobbyRocket]

Plus, won't they also have to get approval for every single component of every single piece of every single device? Which would extremely costly and impractical for b&m shops? And who wants to go to a vape shop if you can only choose between like 4-5 juices? In other words, the name of the game is homogenization. WHich will enable Philip Morris and RJR to sell their own closed, crap devices to the masses, which will in turn make people not like vaping, which will in turn increase cigarette smoking rates.

 

[crxess]

A few million a year invested, tens of millions per year in sales. But I'm fairly certain that the days of B&Ms on every street corner and cheap retail juices are over.

And yet the local corner Bars and Quicky marts full of Cigarette packs will continue on

 

[Lessifer]

Plus, won't they also have to get approval for every single component of every single piece of every single device? Which would extremely costly and impractical for b&m shops? And who wants to go to a vape shop if you can only choose between like 4-5 juices? In other words, the name of the game is homogenization. WHich will enable Philip Morris and RJR to sell their own closed, crap devices to the masses, which will in turn make people not like vaping, which will in turn increase cigarette smoking rates.

Well, a B&M would only have to apply for whatever they make, or repackage, in house. And it would have to all be pre-packaged. The days of mixing to order are definitely over.

 

[skoony]

I don't understand practically speaking how shops would submit their blends of juices for approval? I mean how is that even doable? How many varieties of juice will be available in vape shops with these regulations? And also as far as the different doses of nicotine in different flavors? Don't understand this.

The point is it is not doable. The regulations are not to protect,nurture and make safe a new category
of tobacco products.the regulations are to blunt,slow down and eventually kill off vaping and return
every one to the only long term tax and profit producing paradigm. Inhaling cigarette smoke.
It is inhaling cigarette smoke that is addictive. It is not the nicotine.

Plus, won't they also have to get approval for every single component of every single piece of every single device? Which would extremely costly and impractical for b&m shops? And who wants to go to a vape shop if you can only choose between like 4-5 juices? In other words, the name of the game is homogenization. WHich will enable Philip Morris and RJR to sell their own closed, crap devices to the masses, which will in turn make people not like vaping, which will in turn increase cigarette smoking rates.

Bingo! you would win the internet but,I forgot who I gave it to the last time.
hang in there. I might remember who I gave it to.
till then respectful regards,
mike

 

[RobbyRocket]

Yea it seems pretty clear that the real purpose is for the FDA to regulate the burgeoning vaping business community out of business, in favor of corporate healthcare lobbyists, where BILLIONS of dollars hold up the bloated federal system which is completely corrupt.

And also so the tobacco companies (supported by their own lobbyists) can monopolize vaping and increase sales of regular cigarettes. Lucky for me, I like American Spirits lol. But I really want to take up vaping.

 

[lynn508]

If the gov figures out it could make money from them look out. There is no doubt in my mind that big P has plans for nic. Like 1000.00 prescriptions for diabetes, parkinsons, ebola etc. I have been saying this for 5 years and look what happened.

 

[nicnik]

If your product is an e-liquid, not only do you have to provide data on the liquid itself, you have to run tests with your liquid, and if I'm reading it correctly, how it will be affected by being used in EVERY POSSIBLE COMPONENT. So every atomizer, every resistance, every wire type, TC, non-TC.

Any guidance from them regarding the fact that many (if not all ) other products will be banned in a couple years, so it might be pointless to test with every possible component? And how about when new products are marketed? Do they have to ammend their submission with tests using those?

TheFDA regulations are a complete mess in so many ways.

 

[Lessifer]

Any guidance from them regarding the fact that many (if not all ) other products will be banned in a couple years, so it might be pointless to test with every possible component? And how about when new products are marketed? Do they have to ammend their submission with tests using those?

TheFDA regulations are a complete mess in so many ways.

I wondered that myself. Do you only have to test with approved devices? Or every device on the market with a current application?

I don't have the quote handy, but they actually say it is much more likely to get approval of a "complete" contained product.

 

[nicnik]

I don't have the quote handy, but they actually say it is much more likely to get approval of a "complete" contained product.

Yup. I saw that, too. And one piece of the rules that skoony posted in this thread, shows how they arrived at that.

 

[nicnik]

Yup. I saw that, too. And one piece of the rules that skoony posted in this thread, shows how they arrived at that.

This one:
FDA deeming rule could happen tomorrow

It all looks like the regulations have been tailored to what BT currently has on the market.

 

[Lessifer]

This one:
FDA deeming rule could happen tomorrow

It all looks like the regulations have been tailored to what BT currently has on the market.

They actually look a lot like the cigarette regulations. There's a reason why there haven't been many new cigarette products on the market, they really did freeze the selection at 2007. Even getting an SE for a package change is difficult and costly. The only change to camel's that I've seen over the past few years has been the one that the FDA forced, changing "light" to "Blue."

They're honestly not coming down harder on vapor products, they're applying the same tobacco control framework. Cigarettes were able to not be devastated because of the grandfather clause, but they haven't been able to innovate either. The framework for MRTP is even more ridiculous.

 

[nicnik]

They actually look a lot like the cigarette regulations. There's a reason why there haven't been many new cigarette products on the market, they really did freeze the selection at 2007. Even getting an SE for a package change is difficult and costly. The only change to camel's that I've seen over the past few years has been the one that the FDA forced, changing "light" to "Blue."

They're honestly not coming down harder on vapor products, they're applying the same tobacco control framework. Cigarettes were able to not be devastated because of the grandfather clause, but they haven't been able to innovate either. The framework for MRTP is even more ridiculous.

Not sure, but maybe you misunderstood that I meant it's tailored to the cig-a-likes that BT currently has on the market.

 

[Lessifer]

Not sure, but maybe you misunderstood that I meant it's tailored to the cig-a-likes that BT currently has on the market.

No, I understood, and you're right those are what are likely to be approved.

I was just commenting on the fact that the ecig regulations are actually pretty much the same as the cig regulations. It's how the FDA operates, they don't want variables, they want consistency. BT knows this, why do you think the Vuse has the tag line "perfect puff, every time"?

 

[Lessifer]

I'm still reading through the main thread, so I'm not posting there yet.

So, how do we get the Congressional Vapor Product Safety and Commerce Protection Act started?

Seriously, at this point, I'm fairly sure it will take an act of congress to take vapor products out of the tobacco control realm and into their own regulatory framework.

Personally I think it should be like food, just ensure the individual ingredients are what they're supposed to be. I'd probably be okay with something more along the lines of alcohol though if necessary. After all, a mixed drink at a bar doesn't need its own approval.

 

[Robino1]

So, how do we get the Congressional Vapor Product Safety and Commerce Protection Act started?

That would be awesome.

 

[Lessifer]

FDA deeming regulation on e-cigarettes: an effective ban on most (and on most effective) products

There are no sensible tobacco regulations in the US.