FDA deeming rule could happen tomorrow

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skoony

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Comment 59 addresses DIY and black market concerns
about availability to youth and purity standards.
The FDA thinks the benefits will out way the negatives.
Point out a study indicating the black market for cigarettes
is 10% or less of the total.
I have contended in the past 90% of the population would
comply with the law new or not. We will see if I am right.
Mike
 

Lessifer

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The Allowance of Internet Sales of tobacco Products was never Guaranteed on the Federal Level.

Some will even argue that the Allowance of Non Face-2-Face sales, with Adequate Age Verification, is an example of a "Reasonable Compromise".

Though this does Not mean though that States can not Do what they are Legally Entitled to do with regards to Net Sales.
right, not guaranteed, but it's up to the states to restrict it. Some states you can order cigarettes online, some you can only order RYO tobacco, etc.
 
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skoony

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right, not guaranteed, but it's up to the states to restrict it. Some states you can order cigarettes online, some you can only order RYO tobacco, etc.
This would be good if not in light of the deeming regs. The ANTZ are sharpening their
axes right now.
I am going to head over the the main deeming reg thread.
I'll be bach'.
Regards
Mike
 

zoiDman

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right, not guaranteed, but it's up to the states to restrict it. Some states you can order cigarettes online, some you can only order RYO tobacco, etc.

Like I said. States have the Power to do certain things. Or can chose to Not do certain things.

But if at the Federal Level, there was a Requirement that "Tobacco Products" could ONLY be sold in Face-2-Face transactions, then it wouldn't matter if a State didn't have a law Prohibiting Non Face-2-Face sales.
 

Lessifer

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Like I said. States have the Power to do certain things. Or can chose to Not do certain things.

But if at the Federal Level, there was a Requirement that "Tobacco Products" could ONLY be sold in Face-2-Face transactions, then it wouldn't matter if a State didn't have a law Prohibiting Non Face-2-Face sales.
I'll admit that I don't really know anything about this, but wouldn't that violate some sort of interstate commerce thing at the federal level? In any case, that's one thing the FDA isn't trying to do, at this time.
 

Completely Average

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From what I've read so far, they'll be considered "components" of tobacco products and still subject to regulation, even if not marketed that way. The determination of intended use is left up to the FDA.

Some of these products, specifically PG, VG, and flavorings would be impossible to regulate as a "component" given their history of use for other purposes for decades prior to the invention of the modern ecigarette. VG has been sold in health sections of stores for close to 50 years. PG is the same. You can buy PG at Tractor Supply Co. for use in the agricultural industry.

For Life Out Here | Tractor Supply Co.

You can buy VG at Walmart, CVS, or virtually any health store or pharmacy.

And flavoring companies like LorAnn have been producing flavorings for culinary purposes for decades as well. You think the FDA will suddenly require every grocery store in the US to card everyone who tries to buy cake supplies? Capella has always marketed their flavorings as coffee and tea additives and even have instructions for mixing drinks on their bottles. Same with The Flavor Apprentice, which started as a perfume company and then began producing flavorings for foods and still markets their products for those purposes. These flavorings have been adopted by ecig users, they aren't produced specifically for that purpose, and the FDA would have an extremely hard time regulating them when they go to a judge and show their company history of producing flavorings for culinary use and demand to be excluded from being classified as a "tobacco product" simply because some ecig users and stores have adopted their flavorings for use in ecigs.
 
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Completely Average

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I'll admit that I don't really know anything about this, but wouldn't that violate some sort of interstate commerce thing at the federal level? In any case, that's one thing the FDA isn't trying to do, at this time.

Federal law trumps state law, and only the federal government has the right to regulate interstate sales. That's why you don't pay sales tax on internet purchases made from a different state than the supplier, your state doesn't have the right to tax an out of state company, and your state doesn't have the right to overrule federal government law regarding interstate trade.
 

Lessifer

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Some of these products, specifically PG, VG, and flavorings would be impossible to regulate as a "component" given their history of use for other purposes for decades prior to the invention of the modern ecigarette. VG has been sold in health sections of stores for close to 50 years. PG is the same. You can buy either at Tractor Supply Co. for use in the agricultural industry.

For Life Out Here | Tractor Supply Co.

And flavoring companies like LorAnn have been producing flavorings for culinary purposes for decades as well. You think the FDA will suddenly require every grocery store in the US to card everyone who tries to buy cake supplies? Capella has always marketed their flavorings as coffee and tea additives and even have instructions for mixing drinks on their bottles. Same with The Flavor Apprentice, which started as a perfume company and then began producing flavorings for foods and still markets their products for those purposes. These flavorings have been adopted by ecig users, they aren't produced specifically for that purpose, and the FDA would have an extremely hard time regulating them when they go to a judge and show their company history of producing flavorings for culinary use and demand to be excluded from being classified as a "tobacco product" simply because some ecig users and stores have adopted their flavorings for use in ecigs.
Right, you will be able to get things that are used for other products, but you won't be finding a site that sells nic base, pg/vg, bottles, flavorings, etc. because the FDA will likely decide that all of it is intended for use with e-cigs.

Federal law trumps state law, and only the federal government has the right to regulate interstate sales. That's why you don't pay sales tax on internet purchases made from a different state than the supplier, your state doesn't have the right to tax an out of state company, and your state doesn't have the right to overrule federal government law regarding interstate trade.
So, if the Fed said you couldn't block online sales between states of tobacco products, they states couldn't block them. What we have now though is some states do block online sales, so... there's no federal guarantee of access to online sales, right? So the states can still restrict online sales if they so choose. right?
 
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crxess

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d (B) the increased or decreased likelihood that those who do not use tobacco products will start using such products." FDA is not authorized to deviate from this statutory standard."

I thought we already establishes the Senate claims the FDA can do just about anything AT WILL so long as it has Budget approval.:glare:
 
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suprtrkr

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crxess

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Right, you will be able to get things that are used for other products, but you won't be finding a site that sells nic base, pg/vg, bottles, flavorings, etc. because the FDA will likely decide that all of it is intended for use with e-cigs.

Somehow I feel sites will be available that work around this issue. Non designated use sites.
Non-disclosure of use is not illegal. Fertilizer is still sold Retail by the bag - BOOM. :cool:

* May be difficult explaining the need for NET flavored Cake :lol:
 

sparkky1

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Skoony, it is great you're reading it, obviously it is upsetting to you & most others.

Your interpretations may be a way for you to emotionally vent but they aren't really depicting the actualities.

This ---> http://cqrcengage.com/casaa/app/write-a-letter?0&engagementId=101154 <--- is our/vaping's best hope now.
I urge everyone to take the time to contact your Govt representatives.

The Feb 2007 date basically kills the industry.

While I support CASSA, always have always will , I will never understand why you would portray vaping with the word cig to represent your product, going up against the likes of the tobacco act and your product has the same ingredient as NRT's and depicts the same idea but I can walk right in any store and buy it off the shelf, there is no more "tobacco" in e juice than there is in NRT's. I see there starting to re think with now using the words vaping industry, smart but was going in with the tobacco angle and not an NRT really the right choice ?
2007 seriously ? they could have put a damn black label on everything vape just like the safer DR recommended chantix and call it a day, i'm not ok with my vape being categorized / taxed as a "tobacco product" when it is clearly an smoking cessation device.
 

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Right, you will be able to get things that are used for other products, but you won't be finding a site that sells nic base, pg/vg, bottles, flavorings, etc. because the FDA will likely decide that all of it is intended for use with e-cigs.

Now you're being just silly.

Like I said before, PG, VG, and flavorings, as well as bottles and other supplies have all been sold for other purposes for DECADES prior to the invention of ecigs. The FDA can't suddenly come along and classify them as "tobacco products" just because the ecig industry happened to adopt them for use in ecigs as well. NONE of these products is produced specifically for ecigs, and the FDA would never be able to stand up against the millions of other, totally unrelated businesses and industries that use them for other purposes. The squeeze bottles I use for my own DYI are exactly the same type used by Subway to hold their dressing. You think the FDA is going to try to tell Subway that their squeeze bottles are now a "tobacco product" and subject to restricted use so their employees under the age of 18 cannot squeeze dressing on to sandwiches anymore?


So, if the Fed said you couldn't block online sales between states of tobacco products, they states couldn't block them. What we have now though is some states do block online sales, so... there's no federal guarantee of access to online sales, right? So the states can still restrict online sales if they so choose. right?

Technically states cannot block the sales. They can however make it a crime to accept delivery in their own state, which is what these states do. You are right in the sense that the federal government cannot guarantee that a delivery of restricted products in your state will be legal to accept, but your state cannot go after the seller if the seller is in another state.

The devil is in the details, but technically states can only make laws that are in addition to Federal Law, they cannot overrule Federal Law.
 

Completely Average

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While I support CASSA, always have always will , I will never understand why you would portray vaping with the word cig to represent your product, going up against the likes of the tobacco act and your product has the same ingredient as NRT's and depicts the same idea but I can walk right in any store and buy it off the shelf, there is no more "tobacco" in e juice than there is in NRT's. I see there starting to re think with now using the words vaping industry, smart but was going in with the tobacco angle and not an NRT really the right choice ?
2007 seriously ? they could have put a damn black label on everything vape just like the safer DR recommended chantix and call it a day, i'm not ok with my vape being categorized / taxed as a "tobacco product" when it is clearly an smoking cessation device.

Here's the problem with that angle.

Is your vape a smoking cessation device when people (specifically teens) are vaping without ever having smoked tobacco? If they've never smoked then obviously their vape is not a smoking cessation device, it is at best an alternative to smoking device.
 

Lessifer

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Now you're being just silly.

Like I said before, PG, VG, and flavorings, as well as bottles and other supplies have all been sold for other purposes for DECADES prior to the invention of ecigs. The FDA can't suddenly come along and classify them as "tobacco products" just because the ecig industry happened to adopt them for use in ecigs as well. NONE of these products is produced specifically for ecigs, and the FDA would never be able to stand up against the millions of other, totally unrelated businesses and industries that use them for other purposes. The squeeze bottles I use for my own DYI are exactly the same type used by Subway to hold their dressing. You think the FDA is going to try to tell Subway that their squeeze bottles are now a "tobacco product" and subject to restricted use so their employees under the age of 18 cannot squeeze dressing on to sandwiches anymore?
From the deeming regs themselves, page 158
158 context in which it is sold (see, e.g., 21 CFR 201.128 (drugs), 21 CFR 801.4 (devices); see also U.S. v. Travia, 180 F.Supp.2d 115, 119 (D.D.C. 2001)) and sales data. Some examples of materials intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the human consumption of a tobacco product are:
 Atomizers and cartomizers used with ENDS;
 water filtration base additives (including those which are flavored) used with waterpipe tobacco; and
 pouches or flavorings used with any of the newly deemed products (whether or not the pouch or flavoring contains nicotine or tobacco).
Some examples of materials intended or reasonably expected to alter or affect the tobacco product's performance, composition, constituents, or characteristics are:
 The cellophane wrapping or plastic tube for a single cigar;
 a plastic bag or tin holding loose pipe tobacco; and
 a glass or plastic vial container of e-liquid.
Although these examples are materials that are generally intended to prevent unintended changes to the characteristics of the tobacco product, they are also intended or reasonably expected to alter or affect the performance, composition, constituents, or characteristics of a tobacco product. For example, these materials often leach ingredients into the consumed product. As some comments noted, with ENDS, there is the potential for substances to leach from the containing vial into the e-liquid and these leachates may be inhaled when the e-liquids are used as intended, posing additional health risks for consumers.

So, while it may be true that you will be able to buy bottles that are not regulated by the FDA, any bottle the FDA decides is to be used with a tobacco product(e-liquid) will be regulated.
 

sparkky1

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Here's the problem with that angle.

Is your vape a smoking cessation device when people (specifically teens) are vaping without ever having smoked tobacco? If they've never smoked then obviously their vape is not a smoking cessation device, it is at best an alternative to smoking device.

Where talking about the millions of people searching for a way to kick there 30 - 40 year habit that they realize is killing them and your pulling the "what about the kids" card ?
If your 18 and you wanna start vaping instead of smoking but you shouldn't be able to ?
 

niterider

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While I support CASSA, always have always will , I will never understand why you would portray vaping with the word cig to represent your product, going up against the likes of the tobacco act and your product has the same ingredient as NRT's and depicts the same idea but I can walk right in any store and buy it off the shelf, there is no more "tobacco" in e juice than there is in NRT's. I see there starting to re think with now using the words vaping industry, smart but was going in with the tobacco angle and not an NRT really the right choice ?
2007 seriously ? they could have put a damn black label on everything vape just like the safer DR recommended chantix and call it a day, i'm not ok with my vape being categorized / taxed as a "tobacco product" when it is clearly an smoking cessation device.

I said this over 2 years ago to CASSA and was mocked.
 

zoiDman

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... i'm not ok with my vape being categorized / taxed as a "tobacco product" when it is clearly an smoking cessation device.

But is the Results of calling an e-Cigarette a Smoking Cessation Device worse that associating it with the Recreational use of Nicotine?
 
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