FDA FDA regulations and the impact on small juice vendors | another side
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Interesting comparison, if the FDA were regulating coffee for safety because of the levels of Diacetyl it contains, then in government "logic" Coke would surely be a coffee product....
I feeling is most of these juice vendors will be gone forever in a year or two.. Better learn to diy and stock up on nic now..
Put your freezer to good use.. When the regs come down there is no way these small outfits are going to be able to comply..
You can always use snuz packets in soak on pg or vg.. or buy tobacco leaves , PG or VG and start soaking now and make your own nets.. Just a thought but it is coming..
You can always get pg and vg and flavors.. Just need the Nic. Those who wait will be left out when this all happens.. Better be prepared is my motto..
I have enough nic for maybe 10 years..
Put your freezer to good use.. When the regs come down there is no way these small outfits are going to be able to comply..
You can always use snuz packets in soak on pg or vg.. or buy tobacco leaves , PG or VG and start soaking now and make your own nets.. Just a thought but it is coming..
You can always get pg and vg and flavors.. Just need the Nic. Those who wait will be left out when this all happens.. Better be prepared is my motto..
I have enough nic for maybe 10 years..
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I'm with you on that! I bought a deep freezer just for nicotine storage and have been buying 100mg liters. I have around 4 years worth right now. I plan on buying a liter every 2 weeks until I feel confident I'm well stocked. Me and my husband both chain Vape plus I make juice for my mom who also chain Vapes. So we need a lot of nic.
But we still need to fight these regulations with all we got. Be prepared but also stand and fight!
That's not going to help if your juice vendor can't get nicotine. If these regulations go through I doubt just anyone can buy nicotine strong enough to make juice in any quantity if at all. I would bet you'd need a license to buy nic or something. It might get ugly. That's why we need to fight.
Soaking in PG or VG will work for getting a nice tobacco flavor, but doesn't extract enough nicotine to be useful....
It the FDA gets its way, we might just find ourselves with no nic juice because of the cost of compliance. Then again, if juice is sold as no nic, would the FDA require testing and evaluation to ensure that it's actually no nic juice? Would they assume a supplier might sell nic juice as no nic to get around the expensive approval cost? As was said uptopic, they aren't stupid.
It's a game for the big guys to play. If you don't have the funding to comply with FDA testing and approval, then you are out of business. I just did some Googling to see if I could find an annual report for Dekang (Changning Dekang Biotechnology Co., Ltd.). I couldn't find anything that shows their revenue/income or even an annual report. Big Tobacco throws millions around anyway. For a piece of a $4B industry they would fork over the cash to gain approval. I see the big three grabbing this business by the horns and forcing us to the local convenience store for juice. Current ecig hardware manufacturers might slide by on technicalities, although the FDA could force huge costs on testing of delivery devices, also. I like the idea of adding a 510 thread flashlight head to the kit and a declaration that the device is meant for VV flashlight use and is not approved for electronic cigarette usage.
Nicotine in pharma grade is now widely available. I haven't searched for information on how those sales will be handled.
23 hours ago this article was posted. Scientists are urging the World Health Organization not to classify electronic cigarettes as tobacco products.
Scientists Warn WHO Not To Classify E-Cigarettes As Tobacco Products
It's a game for the big guys to play. If you don't have the funding to comply with FDA testing and approval, then you are out of business. I just did some Googling to see if I could find an annual report for Dekang (Changning Dekang Biotechnology Co., Ltd.). I couldn't find anything that shows their revenue/income or even an annual report. Big Tobacco throws millions around anyway. For a piece of a $4B industry they would fork over the cash to gain approval. I see the big three grabbing this business by the horns and forcing us to the local convenience store for juice. Current ecig hardware manufacturers might slide by on technicalities, although the FDA could force huge costs on testing of delivery devices, also. I like the idea of adding a 510 thread flashlight head to the kit and a declaration that the device is meant for VV flashlight use and is not approved for electronic cigarette usage.
Nicotine in pharma grade is now widely available. I haven't searched for information on how those sales will be handled.
23 hours ago this article was posted. Scientists are urging the World Health Organization not to classify electronic cigarettes as tobacco products.
Scientists Warn WHO Not To Classify E-Cigarettes As Tobacco Products
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just to give a little hope on the worst case scenario here is
I live in Mexico, here, vaping is illegal but I still see more and more people vaping every day, the prices they pay here in the few back alley B&M are outrageous (but I think this still applies to most of your B&M in the US). Smokers wanting to quit still find a way to find these places and start vaping. In the last year I've seen a few great Mexican juice mixers flourish... I get most of my stuff from fasttech, If I wanted to ger high end mods I would be able to do so just like you are buying and importing directly from different countries. I DIY my juices and right now I get everything in that department from the US but I know where I could get it if your FDA comes in...
so for me, even with the country wide banning here still love to vape and I really haven't run into any scarcity.
so if the worst comes you'll still find a way and won't be hard
I live in Mexico, here, vaping is illegal but I still see more and more people vaping every day, the prices they pay here in the few back alley B&M are outrageous (but I think this still applies to most of your B&M in the US). Smokers wanting to quit still find a way to find these places and start vaping. In the last year I've seen a few great Mexican juice mixers flourish... I get most of my stuff from fasttech, If I wanted to ger high end mods I would be able to do so just like you are buying and importing directly from different countries. I DIY my juices and right now I get everything in that department from the US but I know where I could get it if your FDA comes in...
so for me, even with the country wide banning here still love to vape and I really haven't run into any scarcity.
so if the worst comes you'll still find a way and won't be hard
I still remain more optimistic than many comments on this thread. I would say even more 'realistic' but realize that could / likely would be perceived as insulting. I can see reasons for pessimism but feel we are in a in 3rd inning of a baseball game and score is tied. Many more innings to go, and I truly see momentum on our side. Here's why:
- non-vapers are not aligning with ANTZ. In some cases you see this, but given the science (see below), usually a non-vaper needs all of 2 minutes to either be set straight or quieted on their propaganda that they clearly got from ANTZ news. All non-vapers I know are currently very open to practice of vaping being done indoors with them around. If momentum were in opposite direction, I strongly believe this would not be the case.
- science favors pro-vaping side. It's not 100% on pro-vaping side and all the wild claims a pro-vaper might make, but it appears around 80/20 in the split, and if anything stands a decent chance of going to 85/15 (or better) in next couple years. I see momentum here that favors us.
- growth of industry - it is still growing rather than leveling off or going down. Yes, this can change in next 2 years, but given above 2 items, I feel it is a very tough call, unless one is being pessimistic. I think some vendors will exit in next 2 years, and while that is partially due to increased regulations (at national, state and local level), it is also fair to say it is because they are in it for the money. If outright prohibition occurs, then what I'm saying here is not fair to say it is partially vendors choice. Currently, I see it as partially to perhaps mostly vendors choice. Anyway, I feel being realistic, it is fair to say growth of industry is momentum on our side.
- ANTZ overplaying their hand. The politics is area where momentum right now is not with us. IMO, it's a toss up. Could go either way. And if it goes the other way, it will impact how non-vapers approach vapers and growth of industry. But unless science is in fact corrupt, then it won't have any effect on scientific momentum we have now or will have later on. I think ANTZ is clearly overplaying their hand and this bodes well for vaping in the future. That may be 50 years away, but as fast as world moves today, I would say it is at most 10 years away. Plus, if national Pubs took up this issue in way that Burr did at the recent Senate hearing, I think a very visible shift in politics would occur. Especially, if science is involved. Would be incredibly fascinating to see Pubs and science on same side of an issue. I think us politically aware vapers can make that happen, and if we don't or choose not to, then yeah, pessimism wins.
- I also stand by notion that they (regulators) will never ever gain full control on nic base. But this is a wait and see proposition. Would be utterly foolish if they tried when they could just as easily regulate it instead. With regulation, they stand far better chance of appearing in control of nic base. Trying to exert (rather weak) authority to strictly control it, and they stand to lose, significantly.
- non-vapers are not aligning with ANTZ. In some cases you see this, but given the science (see below), usually a non-vaper needs all of 2 minutes to either be set straight or quieted on their propaganda that they clearly got from ANTZ news. All non-vapers I know are currently very open to practice of vaping being done indoors with them around. If momentum were in opposite direction, I strongly believe this would not be the case.
- science favors pro-vaping side. It's not 100% on pro-vaping side and all the wild claims a pro-vaper might make, but it appears around 80/20 in the split, and if anything stands a decent chance of going to 85/15 (or better) in next couple years. I see momentum here that favors us.
- growth of industry - it is still growing rather than leveling off or going down. Yes, this can change in next 2 years, but given above 2 items, I feel it is a very tough call, unless one is being pessimistic. I think some vendors will exit in next 2 years, and while that is partially due to increased regulations (at national, state and local level), it is also fair to say it is because they are in it for the money. If outright prohibition occurs, then what I'm saying here is not fair to say it is partially vendors choice. Currently, I see it as partially to perhaps mostly vendors choice. Anyway, I feel being realistic, it is fair to say growth of industry is momentum on our side.
- ANTZ overplaying their hand. The politics is area where momentum right now is not with us. IMO, it's a toss up. Could go either way. And if it goes the other way, it will impact how non-vapers approach vapers and growth of industry. But unless science is in fact corrupt, then it won't have any effect on scientific momentum we have now or will have later on. I think ANTZ is clearly overplaying their hand and this bodes well for vaping in the future. That may be 50 years away, but as fast as world moves today, I would say it is at most 10 years away. Plus, if national Pubs took up this issue in way that Burr did at the recent Senate hearing, I think a very visible shift in politics would occur. Especially, if science is involved. Would be incredibly fascinating to see Pubs and science on same side of an issue. I think us politically aware vapers can make that happen, and if we don't or choose not to, then yeah, pessimism wins.
- I also stand by notion that they (regulators) will never ever gain full control on nic base. But this is a wait and see proposition. Would be utterly foolish if they tried when they could just as easily regulate it instead. With regulation, they stand far better chance of appearing in control of nic base. Trying to exert (rather weak) authority to strictly control it, and they stand to lose, significantly.
I know most of the posts here are well intentioned... but we have to get real and serious here folks!! Join the organizations fighting this proposed regulation if you haven't done so. Become a voice!!
Re-branding or changing package descriptions on vape gear won't work. Look at what the FDA did in 2009 on their first attempt to regulate e-cigarettes... They went to US Customs and seized all of the incoming product. Do you really think our federal government won't repeat it's previous attempts???
Today 99% of our vape gear comes from China and passes through US Customs. The FDA knows all of the manufacturers, distributors, & resellers pumping these products out world-wide. Stopping that flow is one simple directive to US Customs. End of game.
Nicotine base... the other major choke point. Once it falls within the deeming regulations... if it's still available expect costs to sky-rocket and new tax beds to be planted. Odds are you won't be able to purchase raw base in a liquid form anywhere and if lucky you might be able to purchase tobacco flavored only in prefilled cartridges.
Going dooms-day prepper and stocking up may work for you only for a limited time... but if the industry collapses... consider all the lost jobs and financial impact of all these internet and B&M businesses evaporating instantly. Not to mention there are millions of smokers who won't be able to make the switch we enjoy today... and the millions that may resume smoking.
Seriously... how many of you would be willing to head down to the seedy neighborhood crack corner to pick up 30 ml of juice manufactured in some central or south American dirt lab for $50 each week..? I won't and we can't let that become a reality...
Re-branding or changing package descriptions on vape gear won't work. Look at what the FDA did in 2009 on their first attempt to regulate e-cigarettes... They went to US Customs and seized all of the incoming product. Do you really think our federal government won't repeat it's previous attempts???
Today 99% of our vape gear comes from China and passes through US Customs. The FDA knows all of the manufacturers, distributors, & resellers pumping these products out world-wide. Stopping that flow is one simple directive to US Customs. End of game.
Nicotine base... the other major choke point. Once it falls within the deeming regulations... if it's still available expect costs to sky-rocket and new tax beds to be planted. Odds are you won't be able to purchase raw base in a liquid form anywhere and if lucky you might be able to purchase tobacco flavored only in prefilled cartridges.
Going dooms-day prepper and stocking up may work for you only for a limited time... but if the industry collapses... consider all the lost jobs and financial impact of all these internet and B&M businesses evaporating instantly. Not to mention there are millions of smokers who won't be able to make the switch we enjoy today... and the millions that may resume smoking.
Seriously... how many of you would be willing to head down to the seedy neighborhood crack corner to pick up 30 ml of juice manufactured in some central or south American dirt lab for $50 each week..? I won't and we can't let that become a reality...
Take out the word "seedy" and "other stuff corner" from the question, and I think you are being realistic. I think price is also way off, but that would be a wait and see proposition. I just don't see black market bearing that cost when it seems entirely outlandish today.
Black markets exists in suburbs and rural areas today. While connotation of such a market is that it is seedy, I think it is unrealistic to characterize all such transactions in that market in that way. You think all 14 year olds that are currently vaping are engaged in seedy transactions where guns are present and danger is looming?
I would say read this...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/134842-long-term-storage-e-liquid.html
I have 10 years worth of nicotine solution in my freezer, bottled properly.
I expect it to last the entire 10 years with very little (if any) loss in nicotine strength.
But there are proper ways of doing things, as outlined in the link above.
Good call. Which makes Caffeine-free coca cola for sure a coffee product too.
I have no idea.
But I figure this gives me 10 years to find a way to get more nicotine.
Hopefully that will be enough time to figure something out.
Don't forget, you still have the next year or two to buy a few more decades worth.
Are you Sure About that?
Your Hitting average may have just gone down to .666
No, I'm not SURE, but based on the fact that there's no obvious run on nic yet, I do think we have a year or two. Toward the end of that period, price may be higher and availability lower than it is right now. My personal plan is to buy a liter every month for as long as price and availability remain reasonable. Even if the FDA doesn't get totally medieval on us, I doubt the stuff will ever be cheaper than it is right now.
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