FDA regulations...

[johnm1971]

Does anyone else agree that with the upcoming Vapocalypse, all they are doing is creating yet another black market trade? It didn't work with alcohol, isn't working well with other things (wink), and won't work with this! And the fact that it's obvious that big pharmacy and big tobacco are pulling the strings here.....I think it will make people want to break the law all the more and sell underground vaping hardware and juice. I'm sure there all already people stockpiling not for personal use, but for future profit.

 

[Two_Bears]

Does anyone else agree that with the upcoming Vapocalypse, all they are doing is creating yet another black market trade? It didn't work with alcohol, isn't working well with other things (wink), and won't work with this! And the fact that it's obvious that big pharmacy and big tobacco are pulling the strings here.....I think it will make people want to break the law all the more and sell underground vaping hardware and juice. I'm sure there all already people stockpiling not for personal use, but for future profit.

Let me ask you a question. How long hss the war on drugs been going on?

Vaping may have to go under ground for several years.

 

[ckquatt]

The FDA said this won't create a black market. They know best, so I'm not worried about it.

[emoji3]


Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

 

[Vandal]

The FDA said this won't create a black market. They know best, so I'm not worried about it.

[emoji3]

Yes, we all converge on FDA headquarters, make a bonfire of all our vape gear, and proceed to the nearest store to buy cartons of cigarettes. We will comply. Said no vaper ever.

As pointed out in an article I can't link to here, a black market (as well as prepping/stockpiling I would imagine) is a sensible reaction by the people adversely affected and signals bad policy. The FDA cannot be so naive as to think it won't happen, but perhaps they don't care, as long as sufficient numbers return to smoking and any potential vapers are prevented from switching to vaping in the future.

I think it's perfectly sensible to stockpile. To stockpile thinking to profit? Maybe not so much- the times are uncertain after all.

 

[retired1]

The problem with "black market", especially in the case of e-liquids is there are no checks and balances on what ingredients these people will be using in their products. There are enough bathtub cowboys as is it, and the new regulations will just ensure there are more who don't know what they're doing and selling to the public.

 

[skoony]

@retired1 I have thought over the implications of a black market e-cig
economy and have come to the conclusion that unless the government
puts severe restrictions on obtaining PG/VG,flavorings and nicotine our
fears of for lack of a better word,rot gut juice would be mostly unfounded.

The mark up for juice as we all know is quite high and the raw ingredients
are easily obtainable. No one would be making their own PG/VG or flavorings.
Nicotine from India and China would be available. I personally do not have any
worries about purity. The process of extracting nicotine is designed to extract
the nicotine and filter out other stuff. The end result is almost pure nicotine.
One would have to add contaminants at the end of the process to adulterate
it.

I can think of no reason why anyone would sell anything other than e-liquid
as we know it. Substitute ingredients would probably cost more. Vapers would
not tolerate sub-standard product. Black market producers would have quality
in mind as a incentive to buy their product. After all e-liquid is incredibly easy
and safe to make as it is. Measure and mix. That's it. Your done. There is no
preparation process for the ingredients. No cooking. No refrigeration required.
No weird chemistry.

When people talk of this wild west scenario I often wonder what on Earth
do people think will be put into the juice and more importantly why would
anyone use anything other than what is used to make e-liquid in the first
place? I's interesting to note that with thousands of mom and pops making
and selling thousands of liters of e-liquids with no apparent harm to he general
public why would anyone assume a black market would change any of that?
What do you think all these closed down mom and pops will be doing in the future?

Regards
Mike

 

[retired1]

If you're willing to place your faith in someone with manufacturing facilities in their garage, more power to ya. Me? No way.

And while they may be using VG, PG and flavorings, how do you know if they're cutting corners and getting food grade ingredients rather than USP grade?

No.... I will not be buying e-liquid from Sam's "Psssst! You wanna buy some juice?!" underground market.

 

[AXIOM_1]

If you're willing to place your faith in someone with manufacturing facilities in their garage, more power to ya. Me? No way.

And while they may be using VG, PG and flavorings, how do you know if they're cutting corners and getting food grade ingredients rather than USP grade?

No.... I will not be buying e-liquid from Sam's "Psssst! You wanna buy some juice?!" underground market.

lol ... yeah I agree totally

 

[skoony]

If you're willing to place your faith in someone with manufacturing facilities in their garage, more power to ya. Me? No way.

And while they may be using VG, PG and flavorings, how do you know if they're cutting corners and getting food grade ingredients rather than USP grade?

No.... I will not be buying e-liquid from Sam's "Psssst! You wanna buy some juice?!" underground market.

The process of making e-liquid is more akin to assembly components than
manufacturing a product from scratch. All the parts are already made to exacting
standards and regulatory control. There isn't any black market PG/VG. There isn't
any black market flavorings. There isn't any black market nicotine.
If the ingredients are fit for human consumption they are fit for e-liquid. The
higher the grade is just a purity standard. when one talks about 98.5% pure
the 1.5% so called impurity is 99.99% or greater water.

"The US Pharmacopeia (USP) publishes official monographs for certain substances. These monographs include specific assay methods and product specifications to assure identity and potency. Material that is tested by these methods to meet those specifications is then eligible to be called pharmaceutical grade, or USP. The key concept is "standards and verification" About U.S. Pharmacopeia Many natural ingredients do not have published USP monographs, so cannot be called USP grade (as there are no USP specifications or standards to test against). Also, the testing is often a bit imprecise, so a test result for purity may be acceptable within a narrow range (from 98% - 101% of label potency, for example) and still be considered good. Another standard monograph is that found in the Food Chemicals Codex, desribing FCC food grade materials. A product with an FCC monograph can be tested to meet the food grade specifications that are typically less rigorous than those in a pharmaceutical monograph, but do provide standards for purity and identity.USP Food Ingredient Standards and Food Fraud Database Some substances have both USP and FCC monographs and can claim both grades. For example, the amino acid l-arginine has monographs in both compendia, as do some other aminos."
Honest Nutrition: What is pharmaceutical grade (USP)?

I personally do not understand what the big deal is. i have drunk many a home
made brew made in peoples basements with out batting an eye.

regards
mike

 

[retired1]

Drinking something is entirely different than inhaling it. The comparison is moot and invalid.

 

[VNeil]

The process of making e-liquid is more akin to assembly components than
manufacturing a product from scratch. All the parts are already made to exacting
standards and regulatory control. There isn't any black market PG/VG. There isn't
any black market flavorings. There isn't any black market nicotine.
If the ingredients are fit for human consumption they are fit for e-liquid. The
higher the grade is just a purity standard. when one talks about 98.5% pure
the 1.5% so called impurity is 99.99% or greater water.

"The US Pharmacopeia (USP) publishes official monographs for certain substances. These monographs include specific assay methods and product specifications to assure identity and potency. Material that is tested by these methods to meet those specifications is then eligible to be called pharmaceutical grade, or USP. The key concept is "standards and verification" About U.S. Pharmacopeia Many natural ingredients do not have published USP monographs, so cannot be called USP grade (as there are no USP specifications or standards to test against). Also, the testing is often a bit imprecise, so a test result for purity may be acceptable within a narrow range (from 98% - 101% of label potency, for example) and still be considered good. Another standard monograph is that found in the Food Chemicals Codex, desribing FCC food grade materials. A product with an FCC monograph can be tested to meet the food grade specifications that are typically less rigorous than those in a pharmaceutical monograph, but do provide standards for purity and identity.USP Food Ingredient Standards and Food Fraud Database Some substances have both USP and FCC monographs and can claim both grades. For example, the amino acid l-arginine has monographs in both compendia, as do some other aminos."
Honest Nutrition: What is pharmaceutical grade (USP)?

I personally do not understand what the big deal is. i have drunk many a home
made brew made in peoples basements with out batting an eye.

regards
mike

I'm curious,. If one wanted to buy PG or VG at less than USP grade, where would they find it? And since PG/VG costs about $0.004/ml (1% of a low priced juice priced at $0.35/ml), why would anyone bother even if they found a source? And aside from @skoony 's mention that the impurities would be just tiny amounts of water.

I believe this idea that we are one step away from rot gut juice is just falling for yet another ANTZ talking point that has no basis in fact.

E-liquids have been proven to be far, far safer than our highly regulated food supply. The ANTZ are still looking for their first case of contaminated E-liquid that actually harmed anyone.

 

[Bad Ninja]

If you're willing to place your faith in someone with manufacturing facilities in their garage, more power to ya. Me? No way.

And while they may be using VG, PG and flavorings, how do you know if they're cutting corners and getting food grade ingredients rather than USP grade?

No.... I will not be buying e-liquid from Sam's "Psssst! You wanna buy some juice?!" underground market.

I have to agree.
This is why i started DIYing my own juice ages ago.

I dont trust any of the commercial juice vendors now.

 

[VNeil]

Drinking something is entirely different than inhaling it. The comparison is moot and invalid.

Credible citation please...

 

[retired1]

E-liquids have been proven to be far, far safer than our highly regulated food supply. The ANTZ are still looking for their first case of contaminated E-liquid that actually harmed anyone.

Let's look at it this way.

At the moment, most e-liquid companies are practicing proper manufacturing methods. When those companies close their doors and "Sam" decides to make some e-liquid in his garage for extra cash, how do you know how the product was made and with what ingredients?

Yes, currently our e-liquids can generally be counted on as being rather safe. But that could very well change within the next two years.

People refer to prohibition and how it didn't work. The more worrying aspect would be the number of individuals who were harmed or killed by drinking bootleg liquor that wasn't up to par during that time.

If you want to purchase your e-liquid from an unknown source with unknown credentials on the black market, more power to you. Personally, I'll be making it myself so I KNOW what's in it and how it was made.

 

[retired1]

Credible citation please...

Eat some wasabi. Now inhale it. Get back to me with the results and confirmation that eating/drinking is far different than inhaling.

 

[mattiem]

If you want to purchase your e-liquid from an unknown source with unknown credentials on the black market, more power to you. Personally, I'll be making it myself so I KNOW what's in it and how it was made.

I kinda think that is the case right now. It just hasn't been called a black market. There are literally thousands of small mom and pop e-liquid sellers out there right now and as far as I know no-one has been harmed. I have been vaping for going on 5 years now and have been making my own e-liquid for almost 4 of those years but not because I was afraid of the ingredients in pre-made. I believe in saving money where ever I can and knew it would be much less expensive to make my own and mine tastes better than ANYTHING I bought. I really can't see black market e-liquid being any more worrisome than what is available today. JMHO

 

[Sanctuary Denied]

I think Retired1 makes a good point.
It wasn't so long ago when we had the big Diacetyl/popcorn lung scare.
I don't believe Joe Public is quite as informed as most of the people are here. They just want to buy their juice and be on their way. Sam's juices aren't as creamy as Diane's juice.

 

[ENAUD]

The best thing about a black market is, The Children have equal access to the goods FDA creating a defacto ban will likely make it easier for teens to get bootleg e-juice

FDA, put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

[VNeil]

Let's look at it this way.

At the moment, most e-liquid companies are practicing proper manufacturing methods. When those companies close their doors and "Sam" decides to make some e-liquid in his garage for extra cash, how do you know how the product was made and with what ingredients?

Yes, currently our e-liquids can generally be counted on as being rather safe. But that could very well change within the next two years.

People refer to prohibition and how it didn't work. The more worrying aspect would be the number of individuals who were harmed or killed by drinking bootleg liquor that wasn't up to par during that time.

If you want to purchase your e-liquid from an unknown source with unknown credentials on the black market, more power to you. Personally, I'll be making it myself so I KNOW what's in it and how it was made.

Actually I've been DIYing my eLiquid almost since u started vaping.

Your argument is no different than all the... if, may, might, could.... arguments the ANTZ use to turn a practice with no known harm into something "worse than smoking".

If we have no evidence that current DIY has resulted in occasional harm, Occam's Razor coupled with the Law Of Large Numbers suggests it is unlikely to be a problem.

I'm much more concerned with the mad rush to buy mech mods by people
who otherwise would never touch them...

 

[VNeil]

Eat some wasabi. Now inhale it. Get back to me with the results and confirmation that eating/drinking is far different than inhaling.

I'm still waiting for you to cite credible evidence of one vaper harmed by contaminated E-liquid.

Eta:. Compare to 3000 annual deaths from food poisoning alone (add all the other nonfood related poisoning). And 1:6 estimated to have suffered annually from food poisoning.