FDA to regulate e-cig as tobacco
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This is really the key thing, I think. If all you do is go around saying, "Oh no, now we're screwed!" what good does that do? None! You're just harshing my wow.
If you're really concerned about it, say "What can I do? Who can I talk to? Where do I sign up?" or give your own constructive suggestions as to what can be done to keep whatever regulations do get made as fair as possible.
Am I happy that the FDA finally gave in? YES!! Am I now going to sit complacently by and vape as though my e-cig's existence is guaranteed to be secure? No way. I'll be fighting for my rights as diligently and continuously as needed.
Don't rain on my parade, please. We'll be getting back to work soon enough, so let's enjoy this while we can.
In my reading about the FDAs regulatory powers, it seems that the FDA can regulate both the nicotine containing parts of a device, but also any other part of the device used to consume tobacco. Meaning a regulation of e-cigs, batteries, atomizers, etc... much as they may regulate rolling papers, filters, etc... and any item in a kit to make cigarettes.
Does this mean they can require vendors to submit a sample and supporting evidence of every kind of change made to an e-cig? The expense of these regulations could be quite prohibitive, and also mean that PG, VG, flavoring, etc.. could be regulated as a tobacco product. My brief reading of the FDA guidelines make it seem that submissions of tobacco products for marketing are anything but trivial.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM239021.pdf
Does this mean they can require vendors to submit a sample and supporting evidence of every kind of change made to an e-cig? The expense of these regulations could be quite prohibitive, and also mean that PG, VG, flavoring, etc.. could be regulated as a tobacco product. My brief reading of the FDA guidelines make it seem that submissions of tobacco products for marketing are anything but trivial.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM239021.pdf
Ever heard of a .... ??? they are Illegal to sell BUT a " Water Pipe " is not , so relax man the hardware will always be available , if it is sold in a KIT form WITH nicotine carts then that will be a problem.
So the Chinese KIT with carts will need to be FDA regulated but a vaporizer will not , this is actually GOOD for the USA MFG of Mods and PV's !!
Hey look we might even put some people to WORK AGAIN ?????
Damn A whole 46 post and you are already a PRO ! excuse us all we were duped .
Surely better than an outright ban. But... in very short time, the cost of eliquids, prefilled cart/cartos, and possibly even equipment will double or triple as they are taxed to death.
It is also possible that the FDA will get all non-tobacco flavoring banned, as they have done with cigs (except for menthol, which they are going after now), and are attempting to do with cigars next.
Also, a lot of our favorite suppliers will soon disappear. The regulations will cause some to go out of business. There will be mass consolidation in the industry, forced by this ruling.
The vaping industry of the future will look very different than it currently does. It will look very much like the analog industry. It will be illegal to transport large amounts of ejuice across state lines to avoid state taxes, fewer flavors, fewer vendors, reduced online purchasing, increased cost and taxes. Expect to have to go into a tobacco shop, grocery store, or gas station/convenient store and purchase a tax-stamped bottle of ejuice or pack of carts/cartos that is manufactured and supplied by a small number of licensed suppliers, and subject to federal and state tobacco laws.
This will result in no more ordering from overseas suppliers (legally). More shipment confiscations, and both federal and state taxes on every prefilled cart/carto and bottle of juice manufactured.
It is entirely possible that all online ordering will soon be illegal (not that they can totally stop it), including ordering from domestic suppliers (if nic containing items are currently sold), and that any and all nicotine containing juices, carts, and cartos will have to be purchased from regulated suppliers, with every item tracked and taxed, just like cigs and cigars.
The good news is that they'll never be able to outright ban them, since they haven't and never will be able to ban tobacco.
BT is going to get into the game now for sure. Anyone notice the number and variety of flavors of snuff, cigars and snus that have hit the market since flavored cigs were banned? All the major players will likely soon be producing prefilled carts/cartos and bottles of juice, and attempting to push the smaller vendors out of the market.
It could also mean that the days of vaping in places where smoking is currently banned are over. State's have been forced to allow vaping in bars and other places where smoking was banned because most states couldn't make the case that ecigs are tobacco products - now the precedent is set that they are.
Overall, more bad news with this ruling than good.
Since they can't regulate anything that doesn't have nic, I would suggest stocking up on 100mg/ml nic juice before the confiscations start and before companies start shutting down their websites. That way for the next year or so we can avoid the costly taxed juices and carts/cartos, order non-nic non-tobacco flavored juices, and add our own nic, and not have to buy them from licensed tobacco retailers.
Any positive news? It could be that the regulation will put a stop to the overpriced rebranding, and eventually lead to high quality equipment being sold anywhere that cigarettes and chewing tobacco is sold, the garbage will be weeded out. The local availability of ejuice, as well as advertising in magazines or anywhere that tobacco can still be legally advertised will raise awareness and boost the ecig marketshare.
I'd like to think that thoughtful regulation would also prevent any DEG or other undesirables from getting into the new, regulated products. But since BT can put any poison they want into tobacco, chances are vaping will become less safe than it currently is, not more. We will probably find ammonia and other additives in future ejuice, to alter the nicotine absorbtion and increase the MAOI effects and enhance the addictiveness.
Of course, I could be wrong. But, if ecigs are recognized as tobacco products, I don't see how they'll escape the taxes and regulation of tobacco products.
Most online cigarette sales are illegal. The only online sales that might escape shutdown would be intrastate sales, and credit cards used for age verification.
It will become difficult to get ejuice, similar to how it is in Canada.
It is also possible that the FDA will get all non-tobacco flavoring banned, as they have done with cigs (except for menthol, which they are going after now), and are attempting to do with cigars next.
Also, a lot of our favorite suppliers will soon disappear. The regulations will cause some to go out of business. There will be mass consolidation in the industry, forced by this ruling.
The vaping industry of the future will look very different than it currently does. It will look very much like the analog industry. It will be illegal to transport large amounts of ejuice across state lines to avoid state taxes, fewer flavors, fewer vendors, reduced online purchasing, increased cost and taxes. Expect to have to go into a tobacco shop, grocery store, or gas station/convenient store and purchase a tax-stamped bottle of ejuice or pack of carts/cartos that is manufactured and supplied by a small number of licensed suppliers, and subject to federal and state tobacco laws.
This will result in no more ordering from overseas suppliers (legally). More shipment confiscations, and both federal and state taxes on every prefilled cart/carto and bottle of juice manufactured.
It is entirely possible that all online ordering will soon be illegal (not that they can totally stop it), including ordering from domestic suppliers (if nic containing items are currently sold), and that any and all nicotine containing juices, carts, and cartos will have to be purchased from regulated suppliers, with every item tracked and taxed, just like cigs and cigars.
The good news is that they'll never be able to outright ban them, since they haven't and never will be able to ban tobacco.
BT is going to get into the game now for sure. Anyone notice the number and variety of flavors of snuff, cigars and snus that have hit the market since flavored cigs were banned? All the major players will likely soon be producing prefilled carts/cartos and bottles of juice, and attempting to push the smaller vendors out of the market.
It could also mean that the days of vaping in places where smoking is currently banned are over. State's have been forced to allow vaping in bars and other places where smoking was banned because most states couldn't make the case that ecigs are tobacco products - now the precedent is set that they are.
Overall, more bad news with this ruling than good.
Since they can't regulate anything that doesn't have nic, I would suggest stocking up on 100mg/ml nic juice before the confiscations start and before companies start shutting down their websites. That way for the next year or so we can avoid the costly taxed juices and carts/cartos, order non-nic non-tobacco flavored juices, and add our own nic, and not have to buy them from licensed tobacco retailers.
Any positive news? It could be that the regulation will put a stop to the overpriced rebranding, and eventually lead to high quality equipment being sold anywhere that cigarettes and chewing tobacco is sold, the garbage will be weeded out. The local availability of ejuice, as well as advertising in magazines or anywhere that tobacco can still be legally advertised will raise awareness and boost the ecig marketshare.
I'd like to think that thoughtful regulation would also prevent any DEG or other undesirables from getting into the new, regulated products. But since BT can put any poison they want into tobacco, chances are vaping will become less safe than it currently is, not more. We will probably find ammonia and other additives in future ejuice, to alter the nicotine absorbtion and increase the MAOI effects and enhance the addictiveness.
Of course, I could be wrong. But, if ecigs are recognized as tobacco products, I don't see how they'll escape the taxes and regulation of tobacco products.
Most online cigarette sales are illegal. The only online sales that might escape shutdown would be intrastate sales, and credit cards used for age verification.
It will become difficult to get ejuice, similar to how it is in Canada.
I cant believe how much negativity is in this thread. I think I'm gonna have to stop checking it. Bye bye thread. You people just keep looking your gift horses in the mouth and don't read anything that myself of Bill have said.
JL Canada BANNED THEM ! , also Taxes are NOT levied by the FDA sorry , but do some research first un informed fear mongering is not very useful .
I know there is a conspiracy.
I know there is a conspiracy.
DOnt leave because they are un-informed !!!!! it's not their fault LOL !
We always have at least a few 'sky is falling' types Secti0n. At least this time they're congregating here for the most part rather than spreading doom and gloom all over the forum. The last one that springs to mind informed us all that we were nuts if we thought that the FDA would ever give up and regulate e-cigs as a tobacco product.
I am not certain, but I believe you are correct. I foresee massive consolidation of the ecig industry. This is really a win for the FDA and big tobacco. Small suppliers will be dropping like flies and only a handful of the larger and more profitable ones will survive, which has its advantages, consistency, reliability, marketability, etc.
Prices will go up, options will go down, though new ones will emerge as well. Availability will increase. It isn't going to happen overnight.
The FDA succeeded in banning flavored cigarettes (except menthol), but not cigars or snus, thus the available flavors of those products has increased.
Each battle will have to be fought and won seperately by the FDA. It may be months or years until all non-tobacco flavors disappear. They may start out regulating only nic products such as juice and prefilled cartos/carts, regulation of equipment may take years. Non-nic juice will probably never be regulated.
The first regulations will be age restriction, and internet sales, and taxes. BT will force changes irregardless of the FDA, now that ecigs are officially a tobacco product. They have the marketing, R&D funds and power to force the smaller companies out ahead of each level of FDA regulation. They will fight the flavor bans and attempt to keep taxes on ecigs lower than analogs, which they have managed to do with snuff, snus and cigars, but will patent improved devices so others can't compete and make sure the FDA stays on top of the black market and tax evaders.
I would expect that the major Chinese companies will work with the FDA (a good thing for quality), and get their products legally sold in the U.S. - but taxes will still apply. Some of the major U.S. vendors will probably survive and compete alongside BT's lines of ecig products, but many smaller ones will fall by the wayside.
Most tobacco used in American cigarettes is grown in China as it is, as well as the nic in ejuice being created there. That isn't going to change, even BT will use Chinese extracted nic in their products. The equipment will probably continue to mostly be manufactured in China, but the designs will change to match the patents and new designs, and will be supplied more to licensed importers and less from small suppliers shipping directly to the states.
That's all speculation of course, but I don't see how it can be any other way. Ecigs have been totally unregulated in the U.S. thus far, now they are considered a tobacco product, tobacco is heavily regulated, there are numerous state and federal laws that can't be avoided, with more being written every day.
Lol Buzz, that was just a box of random parts falling off you're mad scientist's lab shelf and bonking you on the head. Slide em under the work bench, open up the blinds and all will look right with the world again.
We always have at least a few 'sky is falling' types Secti0n. At least this time they're congregating here for the most part rather than spreading doom and gloom all over the forum. The last one that springs to mind informed us all that we were nuts if we thought that the FDA would ever give up and regulate e-cigs as a tobacco product.
I'm shocked the FDA lost, personally. I was prepared to shop for e-cig supplies at a head-shop, and possibly have to grow my own tobacco to extract nicotine from. I'm quite happy I was wrong.
Some people can't handle being wrong, and are just strengthened in their opinions in the face of any evidence to the contrary.
Negativity, or reality? Tobacco products are taxed and regulated at the federal and state level. Ecigs, previously not being legally classified as a tobacco product could not be taxed or regulated by states or the federal government. Now they can be, in fact will have to be legally.
When was the last time you saw a website that sold home grown tobacco to the general public, tax free (except for state sales tax if the buyer resided in the same state as the seller)? Never, it would be illegal. The same goes for ecigs, now that they are a tobacco product, it is only a matter of time until the language of the hundreds or thousands of federal and state tobacco laws are changed to include ecigs and nic-containing ejuice specifically. It will require vendors to register with state governments, tax their products, and obey laws about online and out-of-state sales. This pushes costs up, which will make it difficult for small businesses to compete with multi-billion dollar players.
The industry is going to change considerably. Some changes will be good, many bad. Many will be forced out of business. The changes will take time, but they will happen. Slowly, incrementally. Prices will go up, not down. Availability will likely increase, but selection will likely decrease. Reliability will increase, the number of additives (except flavoring) will likely increase. Flavors may or may not ever be banned, but they will be threatened with bans. It's just the reality of a regulated industry.
The issue regarding clean indoor air laws is not how a product is categorized. Snuff and chaw are tobacco products but are not covered in smoking bans. The issue is smoke, and if someone tries to turn the issue into "The FDA says they're tobacco products" it will be our job to jump all over their case about it.
Vapor is not smoke. We need to start posting that statement everywhere. Everywhere. If I had the money for billboards, I'd plaster that 4-word slogan all over the country.
As for the "overall more bad news remark..." you must be new around here. Had the FDA won the case, their storm troopers would be breeaking down doors all over the country right now to confiscate the "unapproved drug-delivery devices" from store shelves and suppliers' places of business.
Unless Canadian law changed recently, Canada banned the import of nic containing juices. There are vendors in Canada that sell, or at least there were very recently, including nic juice. Options were limited to sales from regulated vendors within the country, making it difficult and more costly for Canadians to get. That is what regulation does. Including ecigs as a tobacco product is the first step to regulating them.
You're right, the FDA does not levy taxes. The state and federal governments do, but they can't levy a tobacco tax on an unregulated product not considered tobacco. This designation opens the doors for the state and feds to levy taxes on ecigs as they do on all other tobacco products.
It isn't fear mongering. It's just a healthy dose of reality. Take a look at every other product that is legally labelled as a tobacco product. Show me the one that isn't taxed and regulated in other ways?
Obviously this ruling didn't cause ecigs to be taxed and regulated overnight, it is going to take time for the FDA, the states, and the feds to push the various changes through. If ecigs have been classified as a tobacco product, they will be taxed, and regulated, it is just a matter of time, and not every tax and regulation is going to occur at once.
True, they won't likely be banned from all places where smoke is banned, but they could be, depending on state law.
They are allowed here in Montana only because the state was forced to admit that they could not be classified as tobacco products, this FDA ruling sets a precedent that they can be. It doesn't mean they will be banned in bars, only that they could be, in Montana.
Yes, obviously if the FDA had won their case that ecigs were an "unapproved drug-delivery device" that would be far worse than them winning the right to label them as tobacco products, and they would have been outright banned and confiscated. That would have been much worse.
Getting them labelled as a tobacco product is still going to necessarily result in eventual taxation and regulation. Previously they were untaxed and unregulated. This opens the doors for the states to tax and regulate them. States have never passed up an opportunity to regulate and tax a tobacco product.
It isn't the worst news, but it is going to result in changes in the industry, some of those changes will be good, some neutral, and some bad. It also opens the doors for BT to roll out their own ecig devices and lines of juices and carts/cartos, which the current businesses will have trouble competing against once taxing and regulating begins.
I think the main point here is we all agree on one thing. We all (or most of us) felt as if we were being discriminated against as smokers. We paid higher taxes for "risking our lives". We were banned from doing what we enjoyed in an ever increasing list of public places almost to the point of not being able to leave the house or drive our car. Our house, clothes and breath stank. We couldn't breathe. On and on. The e-cig gave us freedom from all this. Suddenly we felt normal again. Did not almost everybody who gave up analogs for e-cigs feel this to some extent? I may not know all the laws. I may not be able to give much time to helping. I, like many, will rely on the goodness of others to sort this out. I just know this feeling that I have now, this freedom, won't be mine for much longer. You can't fight city hall....
I still stand by this being a good thing. Yes we will see a cost increase but it will not be as insane as some people see it. I don't see 5 bucks per single carto happening unless they are sold only by BT.
I think being regulated as a tobacco product gives us ground to stand on. We can fight for internet sales to be able to continue. We can keep our flavors. We can work on getting laws and regulations that will not kill the smaller venders. We just need to have the right people head these fights. If you can't play a big part in this at least support those who can.
There is a lot of fighting left to be done, but it can be done.
We now know where the attacks will come from with more clarity than before. It's something that we can turn to our advantage if we use it right, work together and stop with the panic.
This is the time to clear out heads and continue to organize, spread information and understanding of what e-cigs are. Unite to have stronger control over the regulations we will see not just cower in fear of what they might be.Even if the FDA will try to use this against e-cigs we can still use our strength to fight back.
I think being regulated as a tobacco product gives us ground to stand on. We can fight for internet sales to be able to continue. We can keep our flavors. We can work on getting laws and regulations that will not kill the smaller venders. We just need to have the right people head these fights. If you can't play a big part in this at least support those who can.
There is a lot of fighting left to be done, but it can be done.
We now know where the attacks will come from with more clarity than before. It's something that we can turn to our advantage if we use it right, work together and stop with the panic.
This is the time to clear out heads and continue to organize, spread information and understanding of what e-cigs are. Unite to have stronger control over the regulations we will see not just cower in fear of what they might be.Even if the FDA will try to use this against e-cigs we can still use our strength to fight back.
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