FEMA report on ecig hazards pdf

[sofarsogood]

I'm at work on lunch so no time to read right now. Apologies if this has been posted before.
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/electronic_cigarettes.pdf

I got the link from a news story about a guy who lost an eye in a mech mod accident. The mod is pictured. I don't seen any vent holes to speak of. I can't defend devices made like that, sorry. The public doesn't know the difference between mech and regulated because both sides of the debate have their reasons to not speak about it. I'm not satisfied with that.
Man loses eye after e-cigarette explodes

 

[NoFumus]

From the conclusion:

"...considering the vast number of products in the field that use lithium-ion batteries...it is clear that the failure rates are low."

 

[zoiDman]

...

I got the link from a news story about a guy who lost an eye in a mech mod accident. The mod is pictured. I don't seen any vent holes to speak of. I can't defend devices made like that, sorry. The public doesn't know the difference between mech and regulated because both sides of the debate have their reasons to not speak about it. I'm not satisfied with that.
Man loses eye after e-cigarette explodes

Man... That was a Tragic Accident.

 

[Mazinny]

So according to the U.S. Fire Administration there were only 25 incidents between 2009 and 2014 and only 8 percent of those happened while the electronic cigarette was being used. 8 percent of 25 is 2 !

Are these numbers accurate ? Is it possible that in 5 years ( 2009 - 2014 ) there were only two explosions while the ecig was being used, and we have seen probably 10 times that many in the past few months alone ? Just one hospital in Seattle reported 4 incidents since October, compared to 2 incidents in the entire country from 2009-2014 !? I know there are more vapers now, but something seems off. I can't really explain the difference between the number of incidents in 2009-2014 compared to more recent months.

 

[nicnik]

So according to the U.S. Fire Administration there were only 25 incidents between 2009 and 2014 and only 8 percent of those happened while the electronic cigarette was being used. 8 percent of 25 is 2 !

Are these numbers accurate ? Is it possible that in 5 years ( 2009 - 2014 ) there were only two explosions while the ecig was being used, and we have seen probably 10 times that many in the past few months alone ? Just one hospital in Seattle reported 4 incidents since October, compared to 2 incidents in the entire country from 2009-2014 !? I know there are more vapers now, but something seems off. I can't really explain the difference between the number of incidents in 2009-2014 compared to more recent months.

This might, in part, explain it, but there's gotta be more, IMO.

The National Fire Incident Reporting System (NFIRS)
does not collect information that is specific enough to
provide accurate analysis of the frequency or impact of
e-cigarette fires. Lacking NFIRS data to use, media re-
ports were selected as an available, albeit less reliable,
information source. The results cited herein should be
viewed in this light — as qualitative information rather
than as a quantitative analysis.

Also, media outlets seem more and more on the lookout for negative info about vaping. But there's probably still more to the difference, I think.

 

[skoony]

Another younger man.
Let me run this buy you fine folks. There have been more than enough of these incidents
in the last few months than seems to be reasonable from a use v population base
point of view. So what is going on? It's my observation from what I have gleaned
from the rash of stories is that mods are becoming more main stream especially
to younger male gendered individuals. What I mean as a entry level device.
I am not implying sub ohming necessarily but, box or tube mods with large tanks
in the lower ohm range for vapor production in general. Several of the stories
pointed out how the device was used over a period of time with no apparent issues
and all at once with no warning, Kablooewy!
This sounds an awful like battery degradation not necessarily user error or
mechanical malfunction or failure.(shorted circuit)
This is where I am going to catch a lot of flack. The batteries used in mechanical
mods and the new regulated mods are not designed to be used at the current drains
placed on them. The charts and what not people use showing these batteries
can supply said current does not mean they were designed to operate at said
current as a safe operating parameter. The higher the current drain over the amp
hour rating of the battery you go the shorter the life cycle and re-charge-ability
of the battery. Ergo the faster the battery degrades. When the battery degrades
it will sooner or later fail. What the failure is or when or how it will occur is the
$64.00 question.
What I think is happening is degradation over time and not physical user caused
damage(drop-age) or normal component failure is the cause of the apparent
increase in these accidents. In normal operation these batteries should simply just
fail to recharge and hold a charge at which point one would replace them. Due to
the stress on the batteries abnormal failures are increasing with venting being
one of them.
I can see why some of these people have been lulled into complacency because
as many of them have said everything was working just fine,then.... .

Regards
Mike

 

[sofarsogood]

Another younger man.
Let me run this buy you fine folks. There have been more than enough of these incidents
in the last few months than seems to be reasonable from a use v population base
point of view. So what is going on? It's my observation from what I have gleaned
from the rash of stories is that mods are becoming more main stream especially
to younger male gendered individuals. What I mean as a entry level device.
I am not implying sub ohming necessarily but, box or tube mods with large tanks
in the lower ohm range for vapor production in general. Several of the stories
pointed out how the device was used over a period of time with no apparent issues
and all at once with no warning, Kablooewy!
This sounds an awful like battery degradation not necessarily user error or
mechanical malfunction or failure.(shorted circuit)
This is where I am going to catch a lot of flack. The batteries used in mechanical
mods and the new regulated mods are not designed to be used at the current drains
placed on them. The charts and what not people use showing these batteries
can supply said current does not mean they were designed to operate at said
current as a safe operating parameter. The higher the current drain over the amp
hour rating of the battery you go the shorter the life cycle and re-charge-ability
of the battery. Ergo the faster the battery degrades. When the battery degrades
it will sooner or later fail. What the failure is or when or how it will occur is the
$64.00 question.
What I think is happening is degradation over time and not physical user caused
damage(drop-age) or normal component failure is the cause of the apparent
increase in these accidents. In normal operation these batteries should simply just
fail to recharge and hold a charge at which point one would replace them. Due to
the stress on the batteries abnormal failures are increasing with venting being
one of them.
I can see why some of these people have been lulled into complacency because
as many of them have said everything was working just fine,then.... .

Regards
Mike

So far nearly all the serious accidents in use that can be confirmed involve mechanicals. The reports imply the battery failed in a couple of seconds with the press of the fire button. Someone with more experience than me might be able to make a list of the things that could cause that.

I watched some youtube videos of deliberate shorting and venting of these batteries. When they shorted they didn't start venting immediatly. There was more time than the length of the typical puff for the venting to start. Is it possible more careful examination would find two errors,, first a build erro that woulc cause a short and then a determination that the battery was defective and/or a fake.

If the scenario you describe was the primary reason I think there wuuld be way more of these instant failures and it would be happening to people who post on this board, which I haven't noticed yet. Mech users here have talked about accidently shorting their batteries but they all seemed to have had enough time to get clear of the consequences. What are the people in these reports doing different from mech users who post here?

 

[skoony]

So far nearly all the serious accidents in use that can be confirmed involve mechanicals. The reports imply the battery failed in a couple of seconds with the press of the fire button. Someone with more experience than me might be able to make a list of the things that could cause that.

I watched some youtube videos of deliberate shorting and venting of these batteries. When they shorted they didn't start venting immediatly. There was more time than the length of the typical puff for the venting to start. Is it possible more careful examination would find two errors,, first a build erro that woulc cause a short and then a determination that the battery was defective and/or a fake.

If the scenario you describe was the primary reason I think there wuuld be way more of these instant failures and it would be happening to people who post on this board, which I haven't noticed yet. Mech users here have talked about accidently shorting their batteries but they all seemed to have had enough time to get clear of the consequences. What are the people in these reports doing different from mech users who post here?

What you say could be true 2 years ago. I believe we are seeing a new consumer. Not your
old school DIY types. It is becoming clear most of these people are not schooled in the finer
points of maintaining mech mods and are buying off the shelf components. Plug and play.
You speak of way more of these type failures. This is exactly what I am addressing. We are
starting to see way more of them. The people who post here are more attuned to the minutia.
Like replacing batteries more often than normal. I think we are seeing people no more concerned
about the battery in their mods along with every other thing they use batteries for.

Regards
Mike

 

[sofarsogood]

What you say could be true 2 years ago. I believe we are seeing a new consumer. Not your
old school DIY types. It is becoming clear most of these people are not schooled in the finer
points of maintaining mech mods and are buying off the shelf components. Plug and play.
You speak of way more of these type failures. This is exactly what I am addressing. We are
starting to see way more of them. The people who post here are more attuned to the minutia.
Like replacing batteries more often than normal. I think we are seeing people no more concerned
about the battery in their mods along with every other thing they use batteries for.

Regards
Mike

Apparently there are flashlights on the market that use 18650's and can draw power like high powered mods. The high output batteries make a lot of new things possible but... May be the batteries could have a NFC chip that the mod could read and reduce max power when the battery isn't rated high enough. That might also be a way to spot fakes.

 

[skoony]

Apparently there are flashlights on the market that use 18650's and can draw power like high powered mods. The high output batteries make a lot of new things possible but... May be the batteries could have a NFC chip that the mod could read and reduce max power when the battery isn't rated high enough. That might also be a way to spot fakes.

There is no doubt regulated mods are safer. modifying flashlights is a lot older
than e-cigs and like older hobbies the hazards of abusing batteries is well understood
and excepted if not considered part of the territory. The difference being one does not
hold the flashlight or RC/vehicle in ones mouth.

Mike

 

[roxynoodle]

This is what I think are the contributing factors:

* huge rise in popularity of direct to battery mech mods
* huge rise in popularity of subohm clearos which don't mix well with those mechs
* lack of user knowledge certainly in what attys can be paired with those mods, and not knowing/applying Ohm's Law to battery selection
* Counterfeit and batteries with inflated amp ratings. User sees 40A and says, "Cool", without realizing it may be a 10A battery.
* Improper care of batteries. Torn wrappers not being replaced. Putting them in pockets or purses without using a case.

An SMPL clone can be bought for less than $10. Its cheap and "cool". Combine that with ignorance and its a recipe for disaster.

 

[sofarsogood]

This is what I think are the contributing factors:

* huge rise in popularity of direct to battery mech mods
* huge rise in popularity of subohm clearos which don't mix well with those mechs
* lack of user knowledge certainly in what attys can be paired with those mods, and not knowing/applying Ohm's Law to battery selection
* Counterfeit and batteries with inflated amp ratings. User sees 40A and says, "Cool", without realizing it may be a 10A battery.
* Improper care of batteries. Torn wrappers not being replaced. Putting them in pockets or purses without using a case.

An SMPL clone can be bought for less than $10. Its cheap and "cool". Combine that with ignorance and its a recipe for disaster.

I agee with all of the above. I'm frustrated because the reporting about accidents is irresponsible, scaring people instead of warning them. Where is the consumer product safety comission? They often study an issue and provide guidelines for safe practices. Safe handling of loose batteries and avoiding mech mods pretty much covers it so far. But all the agency talks about is child proof e liquid caps. That low risk threat is the best they can do?

I almost got a mech mod. Once I fully understood the safety issues and watched some venting battery demonstrations on youtube it was over. No mechs for me.

 

[roxynoodle]

I have 20 mech mods, although no direct to battery ones. But, I made sure I fully understood everything about them first. And I took each one apart so I understood what parts they had, how they work together, etc. I keep them very clean and make sure my switches are working smoothly.

I also came into vaping with a good education on DC electronics, which most people don't have.

 

[MacTechVpr]

At the end of the day, the source of the problem remains deficiencies or defects of the electrical cell...and/or ignorance of these...despite all the standards in the world. No doubt how we operate and prepare our devices for use can be a contributing factor. Why I encourage baseline predictable rebuilding approaches. In our "modern" age of clone is king branding doesn't protect us. Regulation of production by others offshore is the rule and makers we've trusted are in the game of re-branding themselves. Given this lack of will or regard for rules in place, whatever are we thinking that further regulation will help? Well, at least, better to rant here than letting it chokin' kill me for holding it in.

Good luck all.

 

[sofarsogood]

At the end of the day, the source of the problem remains deficiencies or defects of the electrical cell...and/or ignorance of these...despite all the standards in the world. No doubt how we operate and prepare our devices for use can be a contributing factor. Why I encourage baseline predictable rebuilding approaches. In our "modern" age of clone is king branding doesn't protect us. Regulation of production by others offshore is the rule and makers we've trusted are in the game of re-branding themselves. Given this lack of will or regard for rules in place, whatever are we thinking that further regulation will help? Well, at least, better to rant here than letting it chokin' kill me for holding it in.

Good luck all.

It has been mildly surprising that the anit crowd hasn't played up the accident stories as much as I would have expected and the CPSC is trying hard to ignore them. May be it's because literally everyone has an LI battert that's always in their pocket or held close to their face--cell phones, and nobody wants to start raising questions where our precious phones could get sucked into the discussion. But people are getting hurt and the hazards involved in nearlly all the reported accidents are easily avoided and nobody seems want to get down to specifics and be smart about it.

 

[MacTechVpr]

It has been mildly surprising that the anit crowd hasn't played up the accident stories as much as I would have expected and the CPSC is trying hard to ignore them. May be it's because literally everyone has an LI battert that's always in their pocket or held close to their face--cell phones, and nobody wants to start raising questions where our precious phones could get sucked into the discussion. But people are getting hurt and the hazards involved in nearlly all the reported accidents are easily avoided and nobody seems want to get down to specifics and be smart about it.

Well, there are advantages to economies of scale. However, there comes a point of diminishing returns when quality and safety are superseded for sheer achievement in numbers (profit). Then no rule can be of value or serve any beneficial purpose if there is no will to abide by or enforce it. Whether by those indisposed in industry to protect their own means and interests, or other authority representing users at large, when an industry or its producers show us such indifference then it is we, the ultimate arbiters, that must act accordingly to defend our own. There is no better election than the one brought from the pocketbook and no better effect of due diligence than through our own rightful independence of thought and action. Caveat emptor.

Still differ with you @sofarsogood on the subject of mech's for the reasons I've noted to you elsewhere. Can't count on TC box mods to insulate us from ignorance. We've suspended disbelief to give certain sectors of vaping production a pass for one thing. As well, they've responded opportunistically to the extremes of consumer interest pushing things to the crescendo we have seen. We in turn as a community have not encouraged our growing ranks to embrace electrical fundamentals as a culture. Not saying everyone but one merely has to survey the pages or media on most any vaping venue to appreciate where the preponderance of enthusiasm is focused, all the more encouraged by the most exuberant among us.

And you're right, the e-cigarette industry is not exclusive in this. The world has changed perhaps only reflecting the amorphous evolution of our own standards as consumers. And to my perspective after a lifetime as a professional buyer, not to the better.

Good luck all.

 

[sofarsogood]

Well, there are advantages to economies of scale. However, there comes a point of diminishing returns when quality and safety are superseded for sheer achievement in numbers (profit). Then no rule can be of value or serve any beneficial purpose if there is no will to abide by or enforce it. Whether by those indisposed in industry to protect their own means and interests, or other authority representing users at large, when an industry or its producers show us such indifference then it is we, the ultimate arbiters, that must act accordingly to defend our own. There is no better election than the one brought from the pocketbook and no better effect of due diligence than through our own rightful independence of thought and action. Caveat emptor.

Still differ with you @sofarsogood on the subject of mech's for the reasons I've noted to you elsewhere. Can't count on TC box mods to insulate us from ignorance. We've suspended disbelief to give certain sectors of vaping production a pass for one thing. As well, they've responded opportunistically to the extremes of consumer interest pushing things to the crescendo we have seen. We in turn as a community have not encouraged our growing ranks to embrace electrical fundamentals as a culture. Not saying everyone but one merely has to survey the pages or media on most any vaping venue to appreciate where the preponderance of enthusiasm is focused, all the more encouraged by the most exuberant among us.

And you're right, the e-cigarette industry is not exclusive in this. The world has changed perhaps only reflecting the amorphous evolution of our own standards as consumers. And to my perspective after a lifetime as a professional buyer, not to the better.

Good luck all.

Since starting to vape I've made some guidelines for myself to keep the vaping habit somewhat in check and react appropriately to safety issues. One rule for now is I'm only buying mods from the more substantial companies with a brand and reputation to protect. That doesn't garrantee anything but it's better than betting on brands with no company behind them. Electronics that measure ohms and regulates power have been around for a long long time. Ecigs are just making use of that.

I've watched pbursardo's china factory visits. I'm impressed with what I see. I owned and operated a small manufacturing business once upon a time. I can identify with the company owners in the videos. A defective product that hurts people could ruin their businesses. They know that. I thnk safety is very much on their minds.

Demanding and using devices that are risky just for the sake of daring is a consumer movement. The companies would be happy to sell us only sane devices if that was the market. Evolve was trying to do that with the dna40. The market wanted higher power devices regardless of the merits so we get the DNA200. I would pay the bucks for a dna200 board's programming features if it could go in a single 18650 mod that maxed out at 40 watts. That makes me out of step with the market, I'm brilliant at that.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Since starting to vape I've made some guidelines for myself to keep the vaping habit somewhat in check and react appropriately to safety issues. One rule for now is I'm only buying mods from the more substantial companies with a brand and reputation to protect. That doesn't garrantee anything but it's better than betting on brands with no company behind them. Electronics that measure ohms and regulates power have been around for a long long time. Ecigs are just making use of that.

I've watched pbursardo's china factory visits. I'm impressed with what I see. I owned and operated a small manufacturing business once upon a time. I can identify with the company owners in the videos. A defective product that hurts people could ruin their businesses. They know that. I thnk safety is very much on their minds.

Demanding and using devices that are risky just for the sake of daring is a consumer movement. The companies would be happy to sell us only sane devices if that was the market. Evolve was trying to do that with the dna40. The market wanted higher power devices regardless of the merits so we get the DNA200. I would pay the bucks for a dna200 board's programming features if it could go in a single 18650 mod that maxed out at 40 watts. That makes me out of step with the market, I'm brilliant at that.

Heard that. Thanks for filling in. Worked with/in mfg, lg and sm, pro PM int'l, logistics and IT/IS. Several businesses of my own. But it's a diff universe in China. Have imported from China for my own concern/s. Don't feel comfortable that what I've seen per video is representative of mfg conditions or tech environments there. No small biz really in RoC (HK diff) in our sense. There were a few comments in PB's vid made me laugh. Suffice it to say standards in China are malleable but they are capable of some high-tech these days. How can I put this? Just not uniformly. A great deal has changed since I traded from there and the massive influx of revenue post-1996. But I believe from my contacts with major traders in various industries my take isn't too far from the tree. One production site, or video, doesn't tell the tale. All I can say as I must rely on the reports of others. Never travelled there.

I agree on improved feature sets in more practical power ranges. Most of us won't be using that kind of power. I'm a tech experimenter from way back both professionally and as an enthusiast. I could dig having more wire variant capabilities in TC mods of 40W+. As I techie, love the possibilities. Just think there's high potential for gov's everywhere to seize upon innovation to establish fully arbitrary standards and monopoly. What I alluded to above was consolidation, a.g. attrition of small biz due to concentration of supply chains, product alt's, etc. That's the big risk to the consumer of headlong offshore centralized tech dev. The moochers. So it's a love/hate thing with me. The way things stand, as ravenous as they are to take advantage of vapers, I'll keep what I can build myself, inside and out, close at hand. That is, unless as you say...sanity sets in. It's going to take a heck of a lot more of us insisting upon it. But we can hope sfsg, we can hope.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

So far nearly all the serious accidents in use that can be confirmed involve mechanicals. The reports imply the battery failed in a couple of seconds with the press of the fire button. Someone with more experience than me might be able to make a list of the things that could cause that.

I watched some youtube videos of deliberate shorting and venting of these batteries. When they shorted they didn't start venting immediately. There was more time than the length of the typical puff for the venting to start. Is it possible more careful examination would find two errors, first a build erro that woulc cause a short and then a determination that the battery was defective and/or a fake.

If the scenario you describe was the primary reason I think there wuuld be way more of these instant failures and it would be happening to people who post on this board, which I haven't noticed yet. Mech users here have talked about accidently shorting their batteries but they all seemed to have had enough time to get clear of the consequences. What are the people in these reports doing different from mech users who post here?

You pose a good question. I've had four runaways. One a first use internal short (top maker). The remainder, prematurely stressed batteries as @skoony alluded to (I build zero shorts, min 20% amp draw headroom, multiple res test, off powered devices). Still had plenty of time to react to avoid full venting. My inclination is to suspect 510 connection ground short and that most folks are unaware of the potential. In that, you have a point about neophytes and hybrid connects. Secondly, grey market re-skinned, knock-offs...right again. Which brings up the very question I hinted at...just where is this stuff being made? Increasingly it's harder and harder to rely on branding.

Good luck.

 

[sofarsogood]

You pose a good question. I've had four runaways. One a first use internal short (top maker). The remainder, prematurely stressed batteries as @skoony alluded to (I build zero shorts, min 20% amp draw headroom, multiple res test, off powered devices). Still had plenty of time to react to avoid full venting. My inclination is to suspect 510 connection ground short and that most folks are unaware of the potential. In that, you have a point about neophytes and hybrid connects. Secondly, grey market re-skinned, knock-offs...right again. Which brings up the very question I hinted at...just where is this stuff being made? Increasingly it's harder and harder to rely on branding. Good luck.

I don't know about a number of the mistakes or faults you are describing which illustrates why I'm avoiding mechs. Vaping is being attacked so there can be a reluctance to talk about things it would be useful to know. May be there are minor health issues we aren't hearing about because the effected vapers worry about government interference. Flavor makers hesitate to be as candid as they might be for the same reason. On another level, if you ask about DIY in this forum you are directed to getting started guides that are so complex the beginner is sure it's too much trouble. That delayed me starting DIY by 3 months. Everybody has their agenda and that seems to be especially true when it comes to vaping.

Why not address fake battery issues with a unique identifier that you get by optical scanning or NFC then go to a website to see if that exists in a manufacturer's database. Lots of products are protected that way.

As far as business ethics. Some things just aren't made in America. When I bought off shore the headache was getting the manufacturer to simply live up to his side of the deal. That was an issue I never had with my US suppliers.

As far as exploiting labor, you can abuse people but the price you pay is in product quallity. When I needed to fill a position I would decide what the job needed to pay to get the quality of work required then try to find someone who was capable of earning that money. If that was too much money I'd re engineer the product or the production process. I would send an agent to an offshore factory to take photos of assembly workers at work to see working conditions and worker attitudes. This was not because I'm some do gooder but because if their lives aren't good enough they can't do good work for me.