FEMA report on ecig hazards pdf

[sofarsogood]

I'm at work on lunch so no time to read right now. Apologies if this has been posted before.
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/electronic_cigarettes.pdf

I got the link from a news story about a guy who lost an eye in a mech mod accident. The mod is pictured. I don't seen any vent holes to speak of. I can't defend devices made like that, sorry. The public doesn't know the difference between mech and regulated because both sides of the debate have their reasons to not speak about it. I'm not satisfied with that.
Man loses eye after e-cigarette explodes

 

[roxynoodle]

This is what I think are the contributing factors:

* huge rise in popularity of direct to battery mech mods
* huge rise in popularity of subohm clearos which don't mix well with those mechs
* lack of user knowledge certainly in what attys can be paired with those mods, and not knowing/applying Ohm's Law to battery selection
* Counterfeit and batteries with inflated amp ratings. User sees 40A and says, "Cool", without realizing it may be a 10A battery.
* Improper care of batteries. Torn wrappers not being replaced. Putting them in pockets or purses without using a case.

An SMPL clone can be bought for less than $10. Its cheap and "cool". Combine that with ignorance and its a recipe for disaster.

 

[Kurt]

I read a story recently in a chemistry periodical that demand for cheap Li-ion batteries for ecigs is so high that some Chinese factories are cutting back on quality control to keep up, especially in the clean rooms used for producing them. A speck of dust in the material can be all that is needed to have a very unstable battery.

Over-claiming current limits could also be a problem, just as mAh are often over-claimed. Combine this with ignorant new users wanting to use subohm coils on mechs, and its not a pretty picture.

That said, I have noted a similar number of stories about cell phone fires in the last year, but admittedly cell phones are more prevalent than ecigs.

 

[Kent C]

I have mentioned in the past that the government et al have the authority and duty to protect United States Citizens for dangerous products.

You would have a hard time finding that in the Constitution..... or you'd have to so alter the
interpretation of certain clauses out of their context to make the case. Not that, that hasn't been done, but strict construction of those clauses from original intent, show no such idea of 'protecting' citizens from themselves or their choices in products. In fact, it's just the opposite. Guns are 'dangerous products' and they uphold the right of citizens to have them and use them. They, the gov't has neither the authority or duty to do otherwise, only to uphold the Constitution as stated.

 

[NoFumus]

From the conclusion:

"...considering the vast number of products in the field that use lithium-ion batteries...it is clear that the failure rates are low."

 

[sofarsogood]

Well, there are advantages to economies of scale. However, there comes a point of diminishing returns when quality and safety are superseded for sheer achievement in numbers (profit). Then no rule can be of value or serve any beneficial purpose if there is no will to abide by or enforce it. Whether by those indisposed in industry to protect their own means and interests, or other authority representing users at large, when an industry or its producers show us such indifference then it is we, the ultimate arbiters, that must act accordingly to defend our own. There is no better election than the one brought from the pocketbook and no better effect of due diligence than through our own rightful independence of thought and action. Caveat emptor.

Still differ with you @sofarsogood on the subject of mech's for the reasons I've noted to you elsewhere. Can't count on TC box mods to insulate us from ignorance. We've suspended disbelief to give certain sectors of vaping production a pass for one thing. As well, they've responded opportunistically to the extremes of consumer interest pushing things to the crescendo we have seen. We in turn as a community have not encouraged our growing ranks to embrace electrical fundamentals as a culture. Not saying everyone but one merely has to survey the pages or media on most any vaping venue to appreciate where the preponderance of enthusiasm is focused, all the more encouraged by the most exuberant among us.

And you're right, the e-cigarette industry is not exclusive in this. The world has changed perhaps only reflecting the amorphous evolution of our own standards as consumers. And to my perspective after a lifetime as a professional buyer, not to the better.

Good luck all.

Since starting to vape I've made some guidelines for myself to keep the vaping habit somewhat in check and react appropriately to safety issues. One rule for now is I'm only buying mods from the more substantial companies with a brand and reputation to protect. That doesn't garrantee anything but it's better than betting on brands with no company behind them. Electronics that measure ohms and regulates power have been around for a long long time. Ecigs are just making use of that.

I've watched pbursardo's china factory visits. I'm impressed with what I see. I owned and operated a small manufacturing business once upon a time. I can identify with the company owners in the videos. A defective product that hurts people could ruin their businesses. They know that. I thnk safety is very much on their minds.

Demanding and using devices that are risky just for the sake of daring is a consumer movement. The companies would be happy to sell us only sane devices if that was the market. Evolve was trying to do that with the dna40. The market wanted higher power devices regardless of the merits so we get the DNA200. I would pay the bucks for a dna200 board's programming features if it could go in a single 18650 mod that maxed out at 40 watts. That makes me out of step with the market, I'm brilliant at that.

 

[LaraC]

I'm frustrated because the reporting about accidents is irresponsible, scaring people instead of warning them. Where is the consumer product safety comission? They often study an issue and provide guidelines for safe practices. Safe handling of loose batteries and avoiding mech mods pretty much covers it so far. But all the agency talks about is child proof e liquid caps. That low risk threat is the best they can do?

From the link you put in your original post, sofarsogood... to the October 2014 paper published by the U.S. Fire Administration:

"Electronic Cigarette Fires and Explosions"

on page 2:
"The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has
advised that e-cigarettes do not fall under its jurisdiction."

I suppose the Consumer Product Safety Commission does have jurisdiction over batteries per se.
Maybe they already have guidelines about batteries. I haven't looked.

Child-proof caps for e-liquid bottles was an easy decision for the Product Safety Commission to recommend, given the way anti-nicotine and tobacco zealots (ANTZ) and the media have unrealistically demonized "nicotine" for decades.

I think the Consumer Product Safety Commission is quite content with the prospect of e-cig devices being put entirely into the FDA's hands ... through the FDA's proposed (and unreasonably harsh) deeming regulations which would define e-cigs as a "tobacco" product.

I doubt if the Consumer Product Safety Commission wants anything regarding the e-cig devices themselves to land in its lap. No pun intended.

 

[Kent C]

That doesn't explain the CPSC,FDA,FAA,FTC,BATF and all the rest of these agencies supposedly tasked to protect the the health and safety and to promote the general welfare standing around with their hands in their pockets.

Understood. I'm well aware of the reality of the 3 and 4 letter agencies (none of which are in the Constitution either), but your comments about how the gov't has the 'authority and duty' is what I was addressing. They have neither, according to the Constitution. and only have that by the slippery slope of violating the Constitution without anyone stopping those who think they know what's best for us.

And again, there's nothing about "protect the health and safety". While there is the general welfare clause which has been used by the unscrupulous to mean something that was never meant by those who wrote it - Madison said you promote the general welfare by upholding individual rights, since they are the only thing that citizens have in common - ie. from a principled rights argument not a greatest good for society argument. (wrt gov't).

 

[Kent C]

To have civilization people have to be able to live in densly populated areas and for that to work there has to be, among other things, sanitation and public health. Other things need government oversite or control, like public safety, police.

Police and justice are legitimate Constitutional gov't concerns. The rest should be either state or individual responsibilities, not the Feds. And the gov't shouldn't get into 'important social trends' - whatever that means. Vaping is an individual concern - it harms no one else - hence no rights are violated - and no gov't concern.

Won't get into the comments on Trump, unless he has said something on vaping and so far, I don't think he has.

 

[Mazinny]

So according to the U.S. Fire Administration there were only 25 incidents between 2009 and 2014 and only 8 percent of those happened while the electronic cigarette was being used. 8 percent of 25 is 2 !

Are these numbers accurate ? Is it possible that in 5 years ( 2009 - 2014 ) there were only two explosions while the ecig was being used, and we have seen probably 10 times that many in the past few months alone ? Just one hospital in Seattle reported 4 incidents since October, compared to 2 incidents in the entire country from 2009-2014 !? I know there are more vapers now, but something seems off. I can't really explain the difference between the number of incidents in 2009-2014 compared to more recent months.

 

[skoony]

Another younger man.
Let me run this buy you fine folks. There have been more than enough of these incidents
in the last few months than seems to be reasonable from a use v population base
point of view. So what is going on? It's my observation from what I have gleaned
from the rash of stories is that mods are becoming more main stream especially
to younger male gendered individuals. What I mean as a entry level device.
I am not implying sub ohming necessarily but, box or tube mods with large tanks
in the lower ohm range for vapor production in general. Several of the stories
pointed out how the device was used over a period of time with no apparent issues
and all at once with no warning, Kablooewy!
This sounds an awful like battery degradation not necessarily user error or
mechanical malfunction or failure.(shorted circuit)
This is where I am going to catch a lot of flack. The batteries used in mechanical
mods and the new regulated mods are not designed to be used at the current drains
placed on them. The charts and what not people use showing these batteries
can supply said current does not mean they were designed to operate at said
current as a safe operating parameter. The higher the current drain over the amp
hour rating of the battery you go the shorter the life cycle and re-charge-ability
of the battery. Ergo the faster the battery degrades. When the battery degrades
it will sooner or later fail. What the failure is or when or how it will occur is the
$64.00 question.
What I think is happening is degradation over time and not physical user caused
damage(drop-age) or normal component failure is the cause of the apparent
increase in these accidents. In normal operation these batteries should simply just
fail to recharge and hold a charge at which point one would replace them. Due to
the stress on the batteries abnormal failures are increasing with venting being
one of them.
I can see why some of these people have been lulled into complacency because
as many of them have said everything was working just fine,then.... .

Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

Apparently there are flashlights on the market that use 18650's and can draw power like high powered mods. The high output batteries make a lot of new things possible but... May be the batteries could have a NFC chip that the mod could read and reduce max power when the battery isn't rated high enough. That might also be a way to spot fakes.

There is no doubt regulated mods are safer. modifying flashlights is a lot older
than e-cigs and like older hobbies the hazards of abusing batteries is well understood
and excepted if not considered part of the territory. The difference being one does not
hold the flashlight or RC/vehicle in ones mouth.

Mike

 

[roxynoodle]

I have 20 mech mods, although no direct to battery ones. But, I made sure I fully understood everything about them first. And I took each one apart so I understood what parts they had, how they work together, etc. I keep them very clean and make sure my switches are working smoothly.

I also came into vaping with a good education on DC electronics, which most people don't have.

 

[sofarsogood]

@LaraC I have mentioned in the past that the government et al have the authority
and duty to protect United States Citizens for dangerous products. This is a classic
case of passing the buck. They very well can go after manufacturers that are making
products that require batteries that are not intended to be used for the required
application they are used in. The batteries themselves are not intended to be used
or sold individually at the consumer level and as such at least the reputable manufacturers
are probably not liable but, manufacturers sellers and buyers of devices using them
are liable. The new regulated mods are a good sign some one is getting it.
If government agencies are willing to shirk their duty and lay it all on the FDA
then not only are tamper proof cartridges in our future but,tamper proof hardware.

Regards
Mike

I found the answer about the CPSC and ecigs. I would rather call it an excuse. Actually it is an artful dodge. There are some things that the Commission is barred from regulating including alcohol, food, and drugs. ecigs are not food, and not a drug but that doesn't suit the government's agenda. They want it to be a drug related product. If you take away the nic there's no drug. If Nicotine is a drug then caffine is a drug but they regulate coffee makers.

 

[DC2]

In either mode, the user needs to don the vaping condom — some rather rudimentary electrical understanding. Nothing works better without it.

You know, I really do agree with you in concept.
But how are you going to inform John Q. Public that there is a need to learn that?

Because that is exactly where the breakdown in communication exists.

 

[sofarsogood]

You pose a good question. I've had four runaways. One a first use internal short (top maker). The remainder, prematurely stressed batteries as @skoony alluded to (I build zero shorts, min 20% amp draw headroom, multiple res test, off powered devices). Still had plenty of time to react to avoid full venting. My inclination is to suspect 510 connection ground short and that most folks are unaware of the potential. In that, you have a point about neophytes and hybrid connects. Secondly, grey market re-skinned, knock-offs...right again. Which brings up the very question I hinted at...just where is this stuff being made? Increasingly it's harder and harder to rely on branding. Good luck.

I don't know about a number of the mistakes or faults you are describing which illustrates why I'm avoiding mechs. Vaping is being attacked so there can be a reluctance to talk about things it would be useful to know. May be there are minor health issues we aren't hearing about because the effected vapers worry about government interference. Flavor makers hesitate to be as candid as they might be for the same reason. On another level, if you ask about DIY in this forum you are directed to getting started guides that are so complex the beginner is sure it's too much trouble. That delayed me starting DIY by 3 months. Everybody has their agenda and that seems to be especially true when it comes to vaping.

Why not address fake battery issues with a unique identifier that you get by optical scanning or NFC then go to a website to see if that exists in a manufacturer's database. Lots of products are protected that way.

As far as business ethics. Some things just aren't made in America. When I bought off shore the headache was getting the manufacturer to simply live up to his side of the deal. That was an issue I never had with my US suppliers.

As far as exploiting labor, you can abuse people but the price you pay is in product quallity. When I needed to fill a position I would decide what the job needed to pay to get the quality of work required then try to find someone who was capable of earning that money. If that was too much money I'd re engineer the product or the production process. I would send an agent to an offshore factory to take photos of assembly workers at work to see working conditions and worker attitudes. This was not because I'm some do gooder but because if their lives aren't good enough they can't do good work for me.

 

[sofarsogood]

‎Navigating the Regulatory Maze of Lithium Battery Safety | Intertek_Regulatory-Maze-WP.pdf
Batteries | CPSC.gov

Not sure if you're reasoning follows my own but no battery issues, no vaping problem. And I'm with you on enforcement if specific offshore makers (and commercial importer counterparts) are in non-conformance to extant voluntary standards overseen by the Exec/Leg branches. If such presents a hazard to the public, I'd say this is a "trade" issue and not just the purview of any one domestic regulatory agency. Also, what would even more standards/regulation/jurisdiction bring to the table? The authority lies within the power of the preceding branches to sanction, fine or tax as they see fit. It's why we have a Customs Service. We don't need every agency of the government to have guns, be an army and stand ready to put the cuffs on things. Leave the door open wide enough however and some might find enough of a gray area to suggest that the activity itself is a risk requiring specific remedies. And that's what we have right now in my estimation. Gov kicking us in the .... instead of the problem in the head. And ready to build monuments to regulation with us as the excuse.

Your point was well taken on product branding and authentication.

Good luck.

As best I can tell regulated mods have a very clean record as far as safety goes so far. That may be because the technology for regulating electricity in low voltage devices was very mature before vaping came along. Mechs have inherent risks and people are making predictable mistakes and hurting themselves. I'm trying to picture how government bans a metal tube with a switch on the bottom. Warnings are the first option and they aren't doing it. Why not?

Understood. I'm well aware of the reality of the 3 and 4 letter agencies (none of which are in the Constitution either), but your comments about how the gov't has the 'authority and duty' is what I was addressing. They have neither, according to the Constitution. and only have that by the slippery slope of violating the Constitution without anyone stopping those who think they know what's best for us.

And again, there's nothing about "protect the health and safety". While there is the general welfare clause which has been used by the unscrupulous to mean something that was never meant by those who wrote it - Madison said you promote the general welfare by upholding individual rights, since they are the only thing that citizens have in common - ie. from a principled rights argument not a greatest good for society argument. (wrt gov't).

To have civilization people have to be able to live in densly populated areas and for that to work there has to be, among other things, sanitation and public health. Other things need government oversite or control, like public safety, police. So how far do we want that to go? The debate is endless and it should be. It's legitimate for government to be interested in important social trends like vaping but it's not okay for them to be lying scoundrals to protect their tobacco drug trade. If we end up with a President Trump it will be for crap like this. If I vote for Trump it will be because, if I have to be miserable, I want company. My favorite thing about Trump is EVERYBODY in government hates him. May be because he's not corrupt enough to fit in.

 

[sofarsogood]

Police and justice are legitimate Constitutional gov't concerns. The rest should be either state or individual responsibilities, not the Feds. And the gov't shouldn't get into 'important social trends' - whatever that means. Vaping is an individual concern - it harms no one else - hence no rights are violated - and no gov't concern.

Won't get into the comments on Trump, unless he has said something on vaping and so far, I don't think he has.

I've never called myself a Republican or Democrat, too independant minded for that. Later what I can up with is 'cowardly libertarian'. These days the only difference I see between Republicans and Democrats is they are corrupt in different ways and the differences aren't as important as the corruption. If government officials are sincere about anything I can'tt tell you what that would be. The government could do things that make vaping more successful at ending the tobacco age, or they could do nothing at all, but those aren't options. They won't discuss the issues on the merits. So tear them down with mean spirited criticism, undermine their credibility, until they leave us alone. President Trump sounds like a movie title.

 

[Kent C]

I've never called myself a Republican or Democrat, too independant minded for that. Later what I can up with is 'cowardly libertarian'. These days the only difference I see between Republicans and Democrats is they are corrupt in different ways and the differences aren't as important as the corruption. If government officials are sincere about anything I can'tt tell you what that would be. The government could do things that make vaping more successful at ending the tobacco age, or they could do nothing at all, but those aren't options. They won't discuss the issues on the merits. So tear them down with mean spirited criticism, undermine their credibility, until they leave us alone. President Trump sounds like a movie title.

My only point was to point out something that was said about gov't - 'that it had the authority and duty to protect people for (from) dangerous products'. I know that many people believe that to be true, but it simply isn't, and I sought to correct that. Only that, nothing else. This isn't about whether they should or shouldn't - just that by the Constitution, they have no such authority.

 

[MacTechVpr]

You know, I really do agree with you in concept.
But how are you going to inform John Q. Public that there is a need to learn that?

Because that is exactly where the breakdown in communication exists.

I know it, and you know it. And if more of us did it, encouraged more new users to learn how the stove works, we'd all be better off for it. This simultaneously serves both altruistic and self-serving ends in that by educating our peers we gain communal and individual certainty as well as a defensible security from external intrusion. All of us. The goal of achievement we acknowledge as important then isn't that of the enthusiast or hobbyist but one of personal self-reliance. And the closest analogy I can draw upon is learning to cook as we strike out as young adults...so that we don't starve.

Some will say well Mac's just being too idealistic. Perhaps. Or maybe, just practical and realistic if you appreciate my analogy and its implications. We have created a culture of support yet in parallel one of the susceptible uninformed hangers-on. And I'm afraid we all do it, myself included. In 2000+ posts here I'm sure I've dealt out my fair share of snapshot answers to many who could have readily helped themselves to the info. Can't apologize for my concern that I just don't know for sure. Wouldn't want to deter those who just landed here and see them fail while they try sorting out the forum's structure and SE function. But those walkin' in vapin' 6 weeks with their 6th sub-Ω RTA and 200W box need to know by then what the clapton their wind's gonna do...and can I just run it in watt mode? That's the conundrum we face on this thread. Which is the greater threat? The marginally deficient battery, or the user?

Ultimately, we need large numbers of minimally qualified safe vapers to argue the rational case that vaping is beneficial, or we may not. Our choice as a culture. That's not to malign or criticize all or anything that we do. It's all of it in great measure what makes vaping as marvelous an alternative as it is. But we would prosper with a much wider understanding of the need for such an ethic. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what to do. Not my nature. But I can certainly encourage and not hesitate to shame those who'd insist I scramble their eggs for them (or insist on asking for the umpteenth time). If we want to see change, those who know are going to have to make it happen. I know, I know. We already do so much. It's hard to say no. Like it or not, that's the hand that's dealt. Who else will help us, if not us?

Your question is a good one. My efforts with some vendors were largely unsuccessful. My approach here modestly better. There are outstanding contributors on ECF, too many to name. Wish we could say that's the ticket. Just more free stuff neatly ordered in one place. But it's really much more a passing on of attitude and the urgency for it. What's easily taken is seldom appreciated for its value. That I guess sums it up. Let's put value on the right things.

Good luck.