Flavor/PG/VG Chemistry questions from vaping starter

[JonesJustJones]

Hello and please excuse my far from perfect English (I am not a US citizen), I recently ordered an EGO-T starter set after doing a lot of research on possibilites to stop or reduce smoking, I have been smoking, on and off, for about 12 years, between 3-20 light cigs a day, but in between several weeks without (mostly social and alcohol smoker, never alone, never at home).

Now I have found a way to combine beer, parties and nicotine without tobacco and I love the vaping, I already feel much better, no tight chest anymore and better breathing.

But I am still worried about the ingredients of the "flavors" in liquids, and I read a lot about glycerine which may produce acyrlaldehyd (or acryoelin) when heated. Also, I have seen videos about the atomizers, is this not a form a combustion since the atomizier is glowing red? Which is safer to inhale, PG or VG?
Is VG not just "regular" Glycerine, which is always made out of plants?
like this one:
Botanical Glycerol glycerin Only Herbal - Tobacco Shop Hookah Shisha Online Shopping

Hope some chemistry expert can make me feel safer about e liquids.
What I want:
-taste
-nicotine
-non toxic flavorings for inhaling

What I do NOT want:
-cancer
-headache

thank you in advance for replies.

 

[WomanOfHeart]

The VG that's used in juice doesn't get heated up enough to break down into anything toxic, so no worries there. Both PG and VG are safe as far as we know. PG is used in many medical applications, such as inhalers and nebulizer treatments.

 

[JonesJustJones]

So my conclusion could be correct that PG is probably better researched for respiratory medicine/ inhaling and should be the "safer" than VG preference for e-liquid?
I found that PG is also used for theatrical smoke and I read about the rat/monkey tests with PG which turned out with no bad results.

I found more diffuse infos and discussions on glycerine going on german forums from folks who use it for humifying Tobacco for Shisha/Hookha smoking.

I translated one of the quotes here:
"However, often alleged that glycerin by low-oxygen smoking decays to propenal (highly toxic substance). Others say it would break down into CO2 and H20. Has anyone findings on the actual process ?! Is it non-dangerous to humify with glycerin and inhale?"

original thread here
Schädlichkeit von Glycerin bei Shisha (Wasserpfeife) - Medizin & Pharmazie - ChemieOnline Forum

(german though)


So you would say the the glycerin is not "combusted" by an e-cigarette?

Is there a chemical analysis of the vaporized glycerine e-liquids? I guess there could be a big difference between the liquid in "liquid form" or after being vaporized by the heater/atomizer.

 

[dormouse]

I do not know. But if you get 5 non-spammed posts or replies in New members then wait about an hour, you can ask in the Health and Safety section

Health, Safety and E-Smoking

 

[Hoosier]

...


So you would say the the glycerin is not "combusted" by an e-cigarette?

Right, it is boiled, not burned.

 

[earthpig]

Jones
The "flash point" of the chemicals is where things vaporize and past that is another temperature. "Burn point"
There is a wide variance between the two in VG/PG/Nic. They are not your concerns.
Yes your atomizer hits high temps (and best I've come up with is ~ 480deg f). The main ingredients "flash" way prior to that.
From memory (without going back to my notes) PG flashes a@ 280deg f, and VG @ 320 deg f. Nicotine is also in a vary safe range.
The concern is not with the main ingredients, it's in the flavors. But understand most are taken up in the base material and carried out at "flash", of that base (vg/pg).
If you run too hot, like some do with very low ohm, or you push the crap out of the voltage, you will see juice scorch. That tells you it went way too far (in my opinion). Also in cartomizers, the same thing happens to the battings. If kept at a reasonable volt/ohm and no rapid fire vaping, all is good.

In reality, all is good anyways in comparison to smoking by a 100-1000x factor (depending on what is smoked and what is vaped). So in essence this is major ""Harm Reduction" but not "Harm Elimination".

Hope this makes a bit of sense.

Pig

 

[MickeyRat]

The OP has a valid point and one that I wonder about. The PG, VG and nic have at least some research behind them. The flavorings though. We're flying blind on inhaling those. There are diacetyls in some buttery flavorings that may be a problem. I've heard of substances in clove and nutmeg. They usually aren't a problem when swallowed but, inhaled is an unknown. I'm sure there are other problem areas. I really would like more info on this.

 

[swedishfish]

It's not like we're inhaling gallons of the stuff. I vape about 10 ml a week, give or take. If my juice is 30% flavoring, that's about 3 ml of flavoring a week. If we're getting about the same amount of flavoring as nicotine (I don't know if we are), but say we're inhaling 40%, that's around 1.2 ml per week. We're not talking about mass quantities.

 

[earthpig]

Juice is actually only about 5% flavoring. Some a bit higher.
There are a few common flavors that many have allergic reactions to, with cinnamon being on the top of the list, but that wasn't the question. he question was burn and unknowns.
Much of that 5% is exhaled out, when you consider the amount of vapor exhaled and the one next to you can smell it (many flavors are far from odorless).
To me where the biggest concern comes from is artificial sweeteners. They contain chemicals I don't even think are safe to eat and considering a stomach has acids to break things down and a lung doesn't...well, draw your own conclusion.
However when we are talking about straight food flavors or cigarette knockoffs, these are relatively safe.
Mind you, just because a flavor is ingested doesn't make it bad. My concern is a little different. Most flavors are carried in the substrate (vg or pg), and never get heated since they are carried out in that substrate before they get a chance. I say most.
(oh, and that 100-1000x number in my last post is pulled from data I read on harm reduction. Some numbers go higher than 1400x, but to me I've seen little to verify the accuracy of these numbers. But hey, I'm good with a 100x harm reduction...)

It is inevitable for some to hit in direct contact with the atomizer. If that component is a "burnable" component..Not Good!

Now, with all of that said,,,the amount is so miniscule it is of little importance unless you are vaping high temp and burning the crap out of your fluid. Even then, it is so minimal compared to cig smoke, BUT it is a different component that before was never introduced to the lungs.
This is why for me personally, I won't go into massive juice consumption, at suspicious temperatures, and very high voltages.
A little common sense, even though the percentages of burnt items are 100-1000x less than cigs. The more you consume, and the more you scorch, the closer those percentage odds get.

Pig

 

[JonesJustJones]

Thanks for the very interesting replies,
So this brings up some more questions:
- as far as I know the flavors for e-liquids are artificial, but are there any liquids with natural flavorings? I see natural parallels to inhaling watervapor with herbal tea when I had a cold.. that also has a kind of "taste" or "scent".
Would it not be possible to produce natural flavorings then? Guess it would taste way less "flavory" but all I want is the nicotine and some vapor, so I would not care that much for the ultra-sweet artificial taste my (tobacco taste) liquid has.

- does tobacco taste come from any tobacco products?

- About the volt / power burning; I don´t have a clue how to change this or if my standard Ego-T is atomizing at a "healthy" temperature - any comments appreciated.


Its really funny now that I stopped smoking which was proved to kill someone I start to worry about ingredients of something that is not proven to kill anyone.. strange.. perhaps its just the "not exactly knowing what is going on". Should I have a bad feeling about vaping or feel safe(r).. hehe.. no one knows for sure.

Perhaps I will inhale a little less and rather puff on it...

Can´t we all raise a fund for independent medical testing/analysis? To certify at least "some" e-liquids (after vaporization) of course?
I think it is of utmost importance to analyse the actual heated vapor which is inhaled, not the liquid form in the bottle.

 

[NicLiq]

Lots of people go through that worry about the ingredients. The easiest thing for me was to remind myself that every single ingredient was also in a cigarette in some form.

If you want to feel ultra safe, order some plain nicotine base, and some expresso coffee flavoring from FlavourArt (Italy). You only need 3-4 drops per 15 ml of base (there's about 20 drops in 1 ml).

You could also dissolve some menthol crystals in PG or VG and add drops to a plain base.

I don't know much about natural flavors other than it is brought up often and people talk about particles, etc. and also that they ruin atomizers and cartomizers.

Some tobacco flavors are made from tobacco, some people extract flavor from tobacco themselves. The nicotine itself is also from tobacco.

Most juice vendors do not disclose their recipes or the percentages of flavorings. Concerns about safety are usually about the flavorings and the percentages of flavoring in juice.

 

[mwa102464]

there are also Organic flavorings now as well for what it's worth !

 

[JonesJustJones]

Organic flavorings? any shop which is shipping this e-liquids to europe?

Also are there any medical studies going on at the moment which might bring up some results?

 

[JonesJustJones]

damn I read so much about analog cigarette smoke endless list of toxic ingredients recently that I nearly could get in panic about how much I inhaled of that poison the last years.... fu** analog cigarettes and sue the tobacco industry.

 

[mwa102464]

Here is where you can buy the organic flavorings = Nature's Flavors : Organic Flavor Concentrates
You can also buy Organic eliquids from cloudsofvapor dot com as well as vaperite dot com

 

[Old Chemist]

Can´t we all raise a fund for independent medical testing/analysis? To certify at least "some" e-liquids (after vaporization) of course?

Do you think you could raise some million $/euro? Those tests are quite expensive and time consuming. Unfortunately, vapers are not as rich as Big Pharma or BT.

 

[MickeyRat]

Well, I don't lose any sleep worrying about the flavors. However, I DIY and mine are usually closer to 10% flavor. Some come with the vendor's recommendation of 30%.

I'm going to say that I believe the whole organic = safer thing to be a myth. A harmful substance is harmful whether it's grown on a vine or made in a vat. Many of the deadliest poisons known to man are naturally occurring substances in plants and they'll kill you just as dead as anything man made.

I'm not saying that most flavors contain things that are harmful to inhale but, given the long list of available flavors, it's a fair bet some of them do. To act like this component of juice just can't be harmful because it's a small dose is foolish. Plenty of things that are harmful are harmful in low doses. I don't think it is alarmist to point out that this area appears to be a complete dark spot and to say I'd like to see some light shed on it.

 

[JonesJustJones]

wow, really THAT expensive?? I rather thought about an hour booking a medical labor for analysis of the vapor.. or perhaps talking to a medical university.. could even be a topic for a professorial disseration... who knows?

 

[JonesJustJones]

MickeyRat I totally agree with you, I have the same perspective on that.

If I would have any knowledge on medical testing or good contacts to medical engineers I would be extremely interested in investigating into this area. E-cigs could be THE worldwide revolution making the tobacco industry obsolete (or actually make them change into the e-liquid business?). But I would be happy to have, say 3-4 "certified" liquids where the vapor has been analysed and proven to be harmless (except of the nicotine,I want that effect, but nothing else)

 

[earthpig]

Yup MR
Organic is juts growing conditions (like pesticides and soils) and in a sense it has so little to do with e-juice content it's a non starter.
Biggest concerns are either burn (generally cartridge related) , allergies, or artificial sweeteners (as I see it).
And it seems to go down from there.
And again the concerns are minimal, yet can be dealt with if smart about how you vape.

Oh, and DON'T vape oils.