You can find some UK venders that sell hangsen flavors. Hangsen is very big over there. More so then in the USA.
Flavouring and lung irritation
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You can find some UK venders that sell hangsen flavors. Hangsen is very big over there. More so then in the USA.
Please forgive my zealous use of capital letters, I can be quite juvenile. When a new and less experienced member reads these threads it might catch their eye.
That is a verrrrrrry interesting question!
Here's what we considered:
--we'd read that using .9% sterile saline solution wouldn't harm coils (but we never believe 'what we read' in most cases). So we did some basic thinking:
--what we know as "salt" is incredibly impure compared to pharmaceutical/chemical grade Nacl.
--in a .9% saline solution, there is less than 1/4 teaspoon of pure Nacl in 100 ml of distilled water.
--if we nade a batch of e-liquid (using the above 100ml of .9% solution) at 10% - we'd need to create 1000ml of e-liquid....so that'd been less than 1/4 teaspoon of pure Nacl in a liter of juice (over 33, 30ml bottles).
At that point we decided there couldn't possibly 'be enough residue' (if 'residue' is possible*) from such a minuscule amount to cause a 'coil issue', so we didn't bother to delve any further into the issue. We've been mixing/vaping with it now for 6 months, and haven't noticed any problems.
But the "evaporation thing" really made me stop & think. *When we vaporize, the chemicals in the solution (our e-liquid) go into the vapor (and into us). But with evaporation, the fluid 'separates' from the chemicals, leaving the chemicals behind. I don't know how that applies to salt/Nacl...so methinks what we're doing when we vape probably isn't exactly 'evaporation'.
'Hope that helps (or made some sense)
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A cinnamon juice (50PG/50VG) that I got from a local B&M gives me lung irritation, but once I diluted it with PG and TFA's cinnamon (which has ethyl alcohol in it instead of any sort of oil) the irritation ceased to be an issue
A few thoughts;
You can buy .9% saline solution made for inhalation. I just saw it on Amazon and it's not too expensive. I'm not sure that's something I could make at home. That's my opinion only.
I believe Kurt ("ECF chemist") has a very informative post on cinnamon flavors. I read it with my mouth open. My impression was that he feels cinnamon should not be sold for vaping. However, not all cinnamon is the same ... and the post got pretty complex from there. I decided to make my life simpler by avoiding cinnamon. If ECF had a bookmarking feature, I'd pull it up, but you can search for it in the DIY forum.
If you are allergic, including hay fever or dermatitis, it's possible for those flavor molecules or profiles to exist in flavorings. I know there are lists on allergy sites showing various groupings and (IMO) they are wild; not easily memorized or expected. The lists connect weeds to trees to various fruits, etc. I have multiple allergies and I suspect that a lot of people that have allergy histories know it before they start vaping. There's always exceptions though.
One way to tell if it's allergy is by elimination and challenge. Vape unflavored VG or PG, or both to feel which is best since it's possible for people to have a reaction to VG. It's "vegetable" based and I've heard it described as a "heaviness" in the lungs. Yup, there's a thread on that too somewhere on ECF. The next step would be to start introducing single flavors, one at a time, until your favorites are cleared or not.
One of the problems with flavorings is that all they are is a mixture of molecules and chemicals, so it's easy for flavor profiles to get intermixed even within single flavors. If that makes any sense. It could be possible to be allergic to one manufacturer's and not another with the same flavor. I've also heard the theory of synthetics are better than "natural" or "organic" to avoid mirroring an allergy. Others claim there's no real "natural" or "organic" when mixing molefules. It's the chicken or egg debate. Vapers are probably changing the flavoring industry, along with a lot more allergies in general + as ex-smokers, we have damaged, sensitive tissues that are healing.
There's another thread in DIY that compares nicotine in VG/PG bases and they have different tastes, throat hit, some vendors may add alcohol - which some people find irritating. At small percentages (1%-3%) I tend to think alcohol evaporates with the cap off for a couple of days. Another flavoring uses alcohol up to 20% and that irratates my throat. I like to vape unflavored VG with nic 50% of the time. It's an easy way to avoid flavor allergies.
I also had to learn to vape by holding vapor in my mouth, then exhaling through my nose and not inhale into my lungs. That technique prevented my mouth from drying out too. But when I first tried it, I wasn't aware that it takes longer for the nic to reach my brain and so I made myself sick because vaping that way didn't feel like it was cutting the craving. Then ewww, that sick green, dizzy feeling hit. I had to learn to anticipate and be proactive about my nic needs at first.
I'm just throwing some ideas out here because I think that feeling like your lungs are bleeding is scary. I hope you can avoid that from happening again. One thing to remember is that cigarette makers added chemicals to anesthetize the throat and lungs so that we could inhale deeper and become more addicted. How sweet of them. So a problem with quitting is the fibers and tissues in our lungs start waking up and feeling again. It's not uncommon for an ex-smoker to get broncititus, or get diagnosed with asthma/COPD within their first year of quitting. Did quitting cause that? No, but smoking had masked the symptoms of disease progression. I ended up in the doctor's office since I quit.
Anyway, you'll know what works for you and keep us posted. Chances are your experiences will add to the body of knowledge being collected here at ECF and someone else will find usefull. Just treat your lungs with TLC while they heal. They shouldn't hurt.
You can buy .9% saline solution made for inhalation. I just saw it on Amazon and it's not too expensive. I'm not sure that's something I could make at home. That's my opinion only.
I believe Kurt ("ECF chemist") has a very informative post on cinnamon flavors. I read it with my mouth open. My impression was that he feels cinnamon should not be sold for vaping. However, not all cinnamon is the same ... and the post got pretty complex from there. I decided to make my life simpler by avoiding cinnamon. If ECF had a bookmarking feature, I'd pull it up, but you can search for it in the DIY forum.
If you are allergic, including hay fever or dermatitis, it's possible for those flavor molecules or profiles to exist in flavorings. I know there are lists on allergy sites showing various groupings and (IMO) they are wild; not easily memorized or expected. The lists connect weeds to trees to various fruits, etc. I have multiple allergies and I suspect that a lot of people that have allergy histories know it before they start vaping. There's always exceptions though.
One way to tell if it's allergy is by elimination and challenge. Vape unflavored VG or PG, or both to feel which is best since it's possible for people to have a reaction to VG. It's "vegetable" based and I've heard it described as a "heaviness" in the lungs. Yup, there's a thread on that too somewhere on ECF. The next step would be to start introducing single flavors, one at a time, until your favorites are cleared or not.
One of the problems with flavorings is that all they are is a mixture of molecules and chemicals, so it's easy for flavor profiles to get intermixed even within single flavors. If that makes any sense. It could be possible to be allergic to one manufacturer's and not another with the same flavor. I've also heard the theory of synthetics are better than "natural" or "organic" to avoid mirroring an allergy. Others claim there's no real "natural" or "organic" when mixing molefules. It's the chicken or egg debate. Vapers are probably changing the flavoring industry, along with a lot more allergies in general + as ex-smokers, we have damaged, sensitive tissues that are healing.
There's another thread in DIY that compares nicotine in VG/PG bases and they have different tastes, throat hit, some vendors may add alcohol - which some people find irritating. At small percentages (1%-3%) I tend to think alcohol evaporates with the cap off for a couple of days. Another flavoring uses alcohol up to 20% and that irratates my throat. I like to vape unflavored VG with nic 50% of the time. It's an easy way to avoid flavor allergies.
I also had to learn to vape by holding vapor in my mouth, then exhaling through my nose and not inhale into my lungs. That technique prevented my mouth from drying out too. But when I first tried it, I wasn't aware that it takes longer for the nic to reach my brain and so I made myself sick because vaping that way didn't feel like it was cutting the craving. Then ewww, that sick green, dizzy feeling hit. I had to learn to anticipate and be proactive about my nic needs at first.
I'm just throwing some ideas out here because I think that feeling like your lungs are bleeding is scary. I hope you can avoid that from happening again. One thing to remember is that cigarette makers added chemicals to anesthetize the throat and lungs so that we could inhale deeper and become more addicted. How sweet of them. So a problem with quitting is the fibers and tissues in our lungs start waking up and feeling again. It's not uncommon for an ex-smoker to get broncititus, or get diagnosed with asthma/COPD within their first year of quitting. Did quitting cause that? No, but smoking had masked the symptoms of disease progression. I ended up in the doctor's office since I quit.
Anyway, you'll know what works for you and keep us posted. Chances are your experiences will add to the body of knowledge being collected here at ECF and someone else will find usefull. Just treat your lungs with TLC while they heal. They shouldn't hurt.
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P.S. You might want to look at Nude Nicotine. They are offering a VG flavoring line that is mixed at < 3%. The owner is a chemist and he claims he's tested all their extractions for problem causing chemical reactions. IMO, it's the safest on the market right now. He's also approachable and might help you find an eliquid that tastes better than porridge but won't irritate your lungs.
Thanks for all the great posts, guys. You've been a huge help.
A quick update: I've reduced flavouring to 2% for all flavours and have found no lung irritation. Success!
But I've also found that sweet flavours give me heartburn. I developed chronic heartburn about a month ago. I went to the doctor and have been on antacids, which have helped a great deal. I asked him about a connection between the heartburn and the e-cigs, and he dismissed it outright. But I'm not convinced. It isn't the nicotine, as I've been using nicotine for over a decade and have had no problems. A breakthrough came when I ordered various flavours to try out, one of which was a Capella flavour (lemon meringue pie). I used this for two days and was symptomless. I looked at the bottle to find that it contains no sweeteners. This is an interesting breakthrough. My theory is that the sweeteners are making me produce excess stomach acid. Also, when I first started vaping, I used exlcusively tobacco flavours, which aren't sweet at all, and had no problems for two months. Capella flavours it is.
A quick update: I've reduced flavouring to 2% for all flavours and have found no lung irritation. Success!
But I've also found that sweet flavours give me heartburn. I developed chronic heartburn about a month ago. I went to the doctor and have been on antacids, which have helped a great deal. I asked him about a connection between the heartburn and the e-cigs, and he dismissed it outright. But I'm not convinced. It isn't the nicotine, as I've been using nicotine for over a decade and have had no problems. A breakthrough came when I ordered various flavours to try out, one of which was a Capella flavour (lemon meringue pie). I used this for two days and was symptomless. I looked at the bottle to find that it contains no sweeteners. This is an interesting breakthrough. My theory is that the sweeteners are making me produce excess stomach acid. Also, when I first started vaping, I used exlcusively tobacco flavours, which aren't sweet at all, and had no problems for two months. Capella flavours it is.
I agree 100% with your theory (I've seen others attribute 'heartburn & reflux' to sweeteners in juices). I just did a general Google search on "sucralose +heartburn OR reflux" - you're NOT alone!
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That's something I never would have thought of and it makes sense. Thanks. I'm sure others with the same problem will find this interesting too.
Second that opinion. No fact but some concerns with cinnamon, strong citrus (orange, lime, etc.), hot peppers, strong mint flavors, PGA, vinegar, and butter/custard into the lungs. Son also has a nut allergy, so I avoid those flavorings.
Also take a hard look at "tank breaker" flavors for any that might have been omitted from above.
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Since I was mentioned, I thought I would comment.
Flavors are indeed the great unknown in terms of irritation and possible toxicity. My rule is if a flavor makes me cough or irritates I stop using it. Sometimes it can be flavors you would not expect. Everyone is different. Listen to your body. I love Capella Milk Chocolate Toffee, but it makes me cough, so its a no for me.
Cinnamon that is hot contains cinnamaldehyde, which has been long known to be a lung and mucus membrane irritant. It has also been shown to have slight cytotoxicity when vaped, although no where nearly as toxic as cigarette smoke. It has also probably had the worst track record for adverse effects of any flavor in vaping. It can lead to throat swelling, sores, and other nasty effects. I don't think cinnamon should be banned outright from vaping, but I do think a warning label of possible irritation risks is a good idea. Some can vape crazy hot cinnamon juices all day without problems of any kind. Some have problems with even a small amount. I am in that camp, but cinnamon is an FDA approved food flavoring, so at this point I think informing the consumer is probably the best route.
Recently Talbot and coworkers did a widely read but poorly executed study of the toxicity of cinnamon from vaping. Shame, as it could have been a useful and interesting article, but...
1. 4 out of 8 of their eliquids tested were actually PURE CINNAMON FLAVORING! They either knew this and did not report it, and were thus very deceitful, or else they were completely ignorant of the fact that the products they bought were from vendors that ONLY SELL PURE FLAVORS, not eliquids. A fatal error for any research trying to get published, or should be. Naturally the liquids found to be pure flavor were the most toxic. PG, VG and nicotine were NOT found to be toxic, and I am glad they did say so.
2. They never tested any vapor at all, and never used an ecig. They injected the liquids, some of them pure cinnamon flavoring, known to be toxic in high concentrations, directly into cell cultures. Astounding. How they made statements about this being like vaping is beyond me, but they did.
Dr. Farsalinos has sent a letter to the journal publishing the paper pointing out these glaring errors in the study, but it remains to be seen what will become of that. It would not be the first bad science on ecigs published, even after study problems were pointed out. What we saw of that study was the "galley proof", that is the final draft that could still have minor edits before it gets into official print.
PG does cause more drying issues than VG. I can't vape PG much at all. Chapped lips, sore tongue, cotton mouth, achy lungs, and worse are fairly common. These are not necessarily "allergies", rather adverse effects. Some do have allergies, with rashes and itching, something else entirely. I have adverse effects from PG. If a flavor is PG-based, I cannot go above 10% before problems start. The majority of my DIY juices are 5% flavor or less. Often I vape flavorless, just nic, VG and distilled water. If you are having to constantly drink water while vaping, and it does not help for long, it is almost always an aversion to PG or too much PG-based flavor. People like their TH from PG, but I prefer a moister VG vape, with the nic creating the TH. I don't feel a need to purposely irritate my throat to create a sensation that mimics smoke...and often has MORE TH than smoke! I know others close to me that vape that can vape PG all day without problems at all. Wish I could, as PG juice do have somewhat more enhanced flavor, but the negatives are not worth it to me at all.
If a flavor bothers you at all, cut back on it or eliminate it. Way too many other flavors to get hung up on not vaping one. If PG seems to be the problem, try some VG juices and see if the problem resolves. I would start with just VG-nic, VG and about 20% water. If things resolve, you might try bringing the flavor or PG back in to zero in.
Listen to and respect your body!
Flavors are indeed the great unknown in terms of irritation and possible toxicity. My rule is if a flavor makes me cough or irritates I stop using it. Sometimes it can be flavors you would not expect. Everyone is different. Listen to your body. I love Capella Milk Chocolate Toffee, but it makes me cough, so its a no for me.
Cinnamon that is hot contains cinnamaldehyde, which has been long known to be a lung and mucus membrane irritant. It has also been shown to have slight cytotoxicity when vaped, although no where nearly as toxic as cigarette smoke. It has also probably had the worst track record for adverse effects of any flavor in vaping. It can lead to throat swelling, sores, and other nasty effects. I don't think cinnamon should be banned outright from vaping, but I do think a warning label of possible irritation risks is a good idea. Some can vape crazy hot cinnamon juices all day without problems of any kind. Some have problems with even a small amount. I am in that camp, but cinnamon is an FDA approved food flavoring, so at this point I think informing the consumer is probably the best route.
Recently Talbot and coworkers did a widely read but poorly executed study of the toxicity of cinnamon from vaping. Shame, as it could have been a useful and interesting article, but...
1. 4 out of 8 of their eliquids tested were actually PURE CINNAMON FLAVORING! They either knew this and did not report it, and were thus very deceitful, or else they were completely ignorant of the fact that the products they bought were from vendors that ONLY SELL PURE FLAVORS, not eliquids. A fatal error for any research trying to get published, or should be. Naturally the liquids found to be pure flavor were the most toxic. PG, VG and nicotine were NOT found to be toxic, and I am glad they did say so.
2. They never tested any vapor at all, and never used an ecig. They injected the liquids, some of them pure cinnamon flavoring, known to be toxic in high concentrations, directly into cell cultures. Astounding. How they made statements about this being like vaping is beyond me, but they did.
Dr. Farsalinos has sent a letter to the journal publishing the paper pointing out these glaring errors in the study, but it remains to be seen what will become of that. It would not be the first bad science on ecigs published, even after study problems were pointed out. What we saw of that study was the "galley proof", that is the final draft that could still have minor edits before it gets into official print.
PG does cause more drying issues than VG. I can't vape PG much at all. Chapped lips, sore tongue, cotton mouth, achy lungs, and worse are fairly common. These are not necessarily "allergies", rather adverse effects. Some do have allergies, with rashes and itching, something else entirely. I have adverse effects from PG. If a flavor is PG-based, I cannot go above 10% before problems start. The majority of my DIY juices are 5% flavor or less. Often I vape flavorless, just nic, VG and distilled water. If you are having to constantly drink water while vaping, and it does not help for long, it is almost always an aversion to PG or too much PG-based flavor. People like their TH from PG, but I prefer a moister VG vape, with the nic creating the TH. I don't feel a need to purposely irritate my throat to create a sensation that mimics smoke...and often has MORE TH than smoke! I know others close to me that vape that can vape PG all day without problems at all. Wish I could, as PG juice do have somewhat more enhanced flavor, but the negatives are not worth it to me at all.
If a flavor bothers you at all, cut back on it or eliminate it. Way too many other flavors to get hung up on not vaping one. If PG seems to be the problem, try some VG juices and see if the problem resolves. I would start with just VG-nic, VG and about 20% water. If things resolve, you might try bringing the flavor or PG back in to zero in.
Listen to and respect your body!
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