G-Tank-US-CO-OP Support Thread
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Contracting out 101:
I used to be a government employee, I had a trapline of gov. buildings I made sure were being maintained by gov. tradesmen (and some private contractors for the bigger jobs)...if someone in one of those buildings had a problem, they called my boss, who sent me to take care of it, done.
Then one day someone with an MBA at the gov command center thought it'd be more efficient and cheaper to contract the maintenance out to a private company (and make money on the sale of the "business")
Now I work for a private company, I make the same wage/benefits, drive the same truck (but it now has different stickers on it) and work with the same tradesmen and contractors. Now, if someone in one of those buildings has a problem, they call a Callcenter 100's of miles away...sometime 5-6 calls later, the issue finally gets to me.
I used to take responsibility and be accountable for every issue, now I just shrug my shoulders, smile politely and say..."if you have a complaint, here's the number to our Callcenter"
I don't know what you all are complaining about, outsourcing is awesome...there's so much bloat, bureaucracy and mis-communication you don't have to give a s#@t about anything any more...at least on my side of the fence...
Unfortunately, in this instance, we are now that person trying to get something fixed in our building <<sigh>>, ah well, someone, somewhere is making a lot of money...btw, Emachineshop (and their affiliates) are doing a great job handling this, they have a spreadsheet of metrics that can prove it.
pfft, when did I become so jaded?
I used to be a government employee, I had a trapline of gov. buildings I made sure were being maintained by gov. tradesmen (and some private contractors for the bigger jobs)...if someone in one of those buildings had a problem, they called my boss, who sent me to take care of it, done.
Then one day someone with an MBA at the gov command center thought it'd be more efficient and cheaper to contract the maintenance out to a private company (and make money on the sale of the "business")
Now I work for a private company, I make the same wage/benefits, drive the same truck (but it now has different stickers on it) and work with the same tradesmen and contractors. Now, if someone in one of those buildings has a problem, they call a Callcenter 100's of miles away...sometime 5-6 calls later, the issue finally gets to me.
I used to take responsibility and be accountable for every issue, now I just shrug my shoulders, smile politely and say..."if you have a complaint, here's the number to our Callcenter"
I don't know what you all are complaining about, outsourcing is awesome...there's so much bloat, bureaucracy and mis-communication you don't have to give a s#@t about anything any more...at least on my side of the fence...
Unfortunately, in this instance, we are now that person trying to get something fixed in our building <<sigh>>, ah well, someone, somewhere is making a lot of money...btw, Emachineshop (and their affiliates) are doing a great job handling this, they have a spreadsheet of metrics that can prove it.
pfft, when did I become so jaded?
pfft, when did I become so jaded?
With only my own experience to draw upon, I'm guessing it happened due to your following previous disclosure: "I used to be a government employee,..."
Dan well worded.
I always try to remember that you kill more bugs with sugar than with vinegar.
Actually you attract more, then KILL EM! hehehehe
Dan
Contracting out 101:
I used to be a government employee, I had a trapline of gov. buildings I made sure were being maintained by gov. tradesmen (and some private contractors for the bigger jobs)...if someone in one of those buildings had a problem, they called my boss, who sent me to take care of it, done.
Then one day someone with an MBA at the gov command center thought it'd be more efficient and cheaper to contract the maintenance out to a private company (and make money on the sale of the "business")
Now I work for a private company, I make the same wage/benefits, drive the same truck (but it now has different stickers on it) and work with the same tradesmen and contractors. Now, if someone in one of those buildings has a problem, they call a Callcenter 100's of miles away...sometime 5-6 calls later, the issue finally gets to me.
I used to take responsibility and be accountable for every issue, now I just shrug my shoulders, smile politely and say..."if you have a complaint, here's the number to our Callcenter"
I don't know what you all are complaining about, outsourcing is awesome...there's so much bloat, bureaucracy and mis-communication you don't have to give a s#@t about anything any more...at least on my side of the fence...
Unfortunately, in this instance, we are now that person trying to get something fixed in our building <<sigh>>, ah well, someone, somewhere is making a lot of money...btw, Emachineshop (and their affiliates) are doing a great job handling this, they have a spreadsheet of metrics that can prove it.
pfft, when did I become so jaded?
LOL, I am a gov. contractor in the IT business, and it used to be, have a problem I call this number and get the problem fixed. Now it is call the call center get a W/O number and wait for the guy you used to call to call you 3 hours later. *Sigh* progress sucks somtimes.
Dan
It seems that Fedex same day shipping both ways @ this clowns expense is a fair compromise.
With only my own experience to draw upon, I'm guessing it happened due to your following previous disclosure: "I used to be a government employee,..."
Oh, don't get me wrong, the private company I work for now is one of those "we want you to be happy and have an ergonomically correct workspace, our HR dept will work to make sure you are engaged and feel loved and included, and bla, bla, bla..."...moneys no object (cause our campaign donation landed us this contract where we make 10% on the total spend)
...I'm jaded because I'm a tax payer
Except these are outsourced, and it seems like last time these we put on the bottom of the 'rework' list. How long until the machine shop actually fixes them.... sigh...
Dan, nicely worded email. I too would not have been able to stay so polite.
eMachineshop.com is actually a pretty good company... they take the orders, find a shop in their list of affiliates who has machine time available and send off the job... They have some quirks that would prevent me from using them for a multi-part build.
The biggest issue, for me, is that when an order is placed with eMachineshop.com, one shop makes part "A" another shop makes part "B" and down the line it goes. And each shop is instructed to "hold tolerances to .005... So now one shop holds to .005 OVER and another goes .005 UNDER... and these are turned parts SO, double that because .005 on each side may translate to .10 overall...
And the parts, all ordered as separate job numbers don't exist as an assembled unit in their world.
So that CAN work... if you're ordering a bunch of parts that don't have to mate with each other.
Another issue I have is that they are always quite happy to make substitutions on materials... or charge MORE if you don't allow it! I can see by the coloration in some of the pictures of the G-tank-US that there may have been some substitutions made, as the materials shown have a difference in patina.
A rule of thumb in this sort of thing, is the more parts that need to fit together, the greater the likelihood is that they will not fit at all.
The G-tank-US seems to be correctly designed... but the fulfillment side of the equation has gone horribly wrong and it comes down to the reality that this isn't what eMachineshop.com is good at. They are a pretty good place to have a simple design like the ScubaGenV3 built. There's no threaded parts, and O-Rings hide a LOT of slop.
On a design as complex as the G-Tank-US the designer needs to have a close working relationship with the machine shop(s) that are producing the individual parts that comprise the completed assembly, and it needs to be treated as component parts of a larger item at every step of the fulfillment process.
This isn't what eMachinshop.com does well, if at all.
And everybody is right to cut Dan as much slack as he needs to get this project done. But in the future... If Dan ever does this again... he needs to develop a close working relationship with a machine shop that can work through the issues BEFORE they become problems.
In a perfect world... a machine shop will make Part "A"... once that part is completed, they setup Part "B"... if the FIRST Part "B" off the line doesn't fit Part "A"... then they need to correct the setup so part "B" WILL FIT... they toss out the first Part "B" and run the next one... test fit... and if it's good... you run Part "B"... Then Part "C" is setup and tested, and down the line it goes.
Along the way test fittings keep happening, and when all the parts are run... you have an assembly that works as a completed unit. And if a follow-up order happens they can run all the parts simultaneously using the saved setups from the first run. Second runs go MUCH faster!
It's really pretty simple.
But it can't be done at eMachineshop.com
But for what they do WELL, they do provide a valuable service. They provide an inexpensive way to get things made that other shops won't touch because the volume is too low to bother working through all the setups and issues.
The same parts from a full service shop would have probably fit and had no issues off the same set of drawings... at a premium of 20-35%
Often times, and especially with this kind of project... a lower price is rarely a better value.
The biggest issue, for me, is that when an order is placed with eMachineshop.com, one shop makes part "A" another shop makes part "B" and down the line it goes. And each shop is instructed to "hold tolerances to .005... So now one shop holds to .005 OVER and another goes .005 UNDER... and these are turned parts SO, double that because .005 on each side may translate to .10 overall...
And the parts, all ordered as separate job numbers don't exist as an assembled unit in their world.
So that CAN work... if you're ordering a bunch of parts that don't have to mate with each other.
Another issue I have is that they are always quite happy to make substitutions on materials... or charge MORE if you don't allow it! I can see by the coloration in some of the pictures of the G-tank-US that there may have been some substitutions made, as the materials shown have a difference in patina.
A rule of thumb in this sort of thing, is the more parts that need to fit together, the greater the likelihood is that they will not fit at all.
The G-tank-US seems to be correctly designed... but the fulfillment side of the equation has gone horribly wrong and it comes down to the reality that this isn't what eMachineshop.com is good at. They are a pretty good place to have a simple design like the ScubaGenV3 built. There's no threaded parts, and O-Rings hide a LOT of slop.
On a design as complex as the G-Tank-US the designer needs to have a close working relationship with the machine shop(s) that are producing the individual parts that comprise the completed assembly, and it needs to be treated as component parts of a larger item at every step of the fulfillment process.
This isn't what eMachinshop.com does well, if at all.
And everybody is right to cut Dan as much slack as he needs to get this project done. But in the future... If Dan ever does this again... he needs to develop a close working relationship with a machine shop that can work through the issues BEFORE they become problems.
In a perfect world... a machine shop will make Part "A"... once that part is completed, they setup Part "B"... if the FIRST Part "B" off the line doesn't fit Part "A"... then they need to correct the setup so part "B" WILL FIT... they toss out the first Part "B" and run the next one... test fit... and if it's good... you run Part "B"... Then Part "C" is setup and tested, and down the line it goes.
Along the way test fittings keep happening, and when all the parts are run... you have an assembly that works as a completed unit. And if a follow-up order happens they can run all the parts simultaneously using the saved setups from the first run. Second runs go MUCH faster!
It's really pretty simple.
But it can't be done at eMachineshop.com
But for what they do WELL, they do provide a valuable service. They provide an inexpensive way to get things made that other shops won't touch because the volume is too low to bother working through all the setups and issues.
The same parts from a full service shop would have probably fit and had no issues off the same set of drawings... at a premium of 20-35%
Often times, and especially with this kind of project... a lower price is rarely a better value.
Ok, I have gone through all the drip tops tonight and only 9 did not fit the bottoms, I have rechased those 9 so all the drip tops are now acceptable. 5ml are next, wish me luck.
Dan
Dan
Dan, you are just an awesome person. I would have probably killed someone by now
Thank you for your work, really. This is a great community, and you definitely make it better
Thank you for your work, really. This is a great community, and you definitely make it better
Dan, thank you. When I have my G-tank US in hand I will be always mindful of the miles it traveled and the headaches it caused.
I like my vapors bitter sweet!
I like my vapors bitter sweet!
+1 on this one. I'm not sure I could handle it as well as Dan has with the parts not fitting the way they should.
I would have gone all Honey Badger on the machine shop, myself!
thank you Dan for all that you do, i am ok with what needs to be done for them to be correct. hang in there . take time to Vape..
Update:
Here is the response from Alex to the email I sent him...
Hi Daniel,
For your future orders, please use Comments to Machinist and write the following:
"MANUAL QUOTE REQUESTED - PARTS TO BE MACHINED AT EMS"
I assure you, if you enter the above Comments, you will not have this issue again.
However, be aware that the pricing the software provides may not be the actual order cost.
Best Regards,
Alex Dimitrovski
eMachineShop
201-962-7511 ext.115
Well now we know!
Dan
Here is the response from Alex to the email I sent him...
Hi Daniel,
For your future orders, please use Comments to Machinist and write the following:
"MANUAL QUOTE REQUESTED - PARTS TO BE MACHINED AT EMS"
I assure you, if you enter the above Comments, you will not have this issue again.
However, be aware that the pricing the software provides may not be the actual order cost.
Best Regards,
Alex Dimitrovski
eMachineShop
201-962-7511 ext.115
Well now we know!
Dan
Zen brought up some really good points a couple posts back about how jobs get split up to better contract manage work loading (a system not to unlike the one I deal with on a daily basis). It is a bit of a stretch to blame the individual machine shops making the parts that may not have a complete unit for QC testing. It may also be a stretch to fault the Emachineshop rank and file as to how their system disseminates the components and "spreads the love" if you will over their contractor base. Having said that, their project vetting process that recognizes a definite need for congruity obviously failed here....live and learn. The question I have is what is "minimum unit run" required by one machine shop, with a project manager that you can hold accountable for the whole build to make a proto and tool up once proven? I would have thought 200+ units would be enough to provide at least a bit of an economy of scale?...Dan, you not doubt have some experience in this, is it something stupid like 10K units or something? forgive me if this has been asked/answered before...
btw:
Hi Daniel,
For your future orders, please use Comments to Machinist and write the following:
"MANUAL QUOTE REQUESTED - PARTS TO BE MACHINED AT EMS"
I assure you, if you enter the above Comments, you will not have this issue again.
However, be aware that the pricing the software provides may not be the actual order cost.
Best Regards,
Alex Dimitrovski
eMachineShop
201-962-7511 ext.115
Really?...in other words, if you ask for your project to be done properly you wouldn't have this problem
btw:
Hi Daniel,
For your future orders, please use Comments to Machinist and write the following:
"MANUAL QUOTE REQUESTED - PARTS TO BE MACHINED AT EMS"
I assure you, if you enter the above Comments, you will not have this issue again.
However, be aware that the pricing the software provides may not be the actual order cost.
Best Regards,
Alex Dimitrovski
eMachineShop
201-962-7511 ext.115
Really?...in other words, if you ask for your project to be done properly you wouldn't have this problem
Last edited:
Yep saw it, did think he was right, but I can not affect change in the middle of the race without cost. I have no doubt that these parts were contracted to different shops and hence the inconsistancys. I am not sure what the min run would be, but I think 350 should do it
Once I have the 5ml tops complete I will send all of the bad parts back with VERY detailed instructions. I hope this can get resolved quicker this time.Dan
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