OK i have to ask - how are they RUINING your future for their own FINANCIAL benefit?
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H1N1 (Swine Flu) and e-cigs?
- Thread starter housewife
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OK let me get this straight. You are concerned about those who don't vaccinate because it will cause those who DO vaccinate to get the disease they're vaccinated against????
Sorry you might have to re-word your statement so I can understand what you're afraid of.
Good points Wildsky!
I have not had a flu shot since the late 70s & pretty sure it hurt no one.
I have not had a flu shot since the late 70s & pretty sure it hurt no one.
I just don't believe that the decisions on whether to vaccinate, or not, can be an "all or nothing" choice these days. I've shared my own personal opinion on this.. but will just add another of my favorite "health info" web sites that offers info & links on the vaccinate debate from many (that I consider) reliable sources. Vaccines Warning: Are they really safe and effective?
Ditto Wildsky... I don't think "they" are the ones we need to worry about thinking of their own financial benefit. Hmm... smells more like the same "they" that would benefit by controling our vaping!
I've only ever had one flu shot - about 12 years or so ago, then I was sick for 3 days right after it. Never again, and I still don't get the flu - I might have had it once in the 12 years since.
My hubby stopped getting his yearly shot as well, and he's never been sick with flu since. While he was getting the shot every year, he was sick with flu every year.
I hear you... I only had a flu shot once in my life (many years ago) and got the flu right after. I haven't had a shot since... and the last flu I've had WAS from the "flu shot" so have NO desire to do that again!
It sounded like leaford was saying the folks that don't vaccinate were getting some kind of financial benefit from those who DO vaccinate.Ditto Wildsky... I don't think "they" are the ones we need to worry about thinking of their own financial benefit. Hmm... smells more like the same "they" that would benefit by controling our vaping!
I think he was probably so worked up he wasn't typing straight!
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What is up with the censorship on this forum?
In my previous post, #80 in this thread,
an individual's 4 letter last name was replaced with ****,
which makes it hard to google the guy.
(hint: **** Cheney)
In my previous post, #80 in this thread,
an individual's 4 letter last name was replaced with ****,
which makes it hard to google the guy.
(hint: **** Cheney)
So you found a list of quotes. Lots of people say lots of wrong things.
And yes, I do Google. You should google a few of those people yourself.
Morris was fired from the FDA in the 70's because he was wrong then and he's still wrong now. Mendonsohl also opposes cadiac bypass surgery and x-rays. Robert S. Mendelsohn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
I could go on, but the worst one (for your point) is the Sabin quote. Dr. Sabin created a polio vaccine which used live viruses. His rival, Jonas Salk invented one which used KILLED viruses. Sabine's supposed anti-vaccine statements are part of his campaign against Salk's vaccine, taken out of context and twisted to sound like he opposed vaccinations in general. BTW, at the end of his life, Sabin apologized for the misleading effects his words have had.
Jonas Salk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, quote all the nuts you want. Each and every one of them are wrong.
By and large, those who oppose conventional medicine are pushing some unproven alternitive treatment instead. So-called alternitive medicine is a multi billion dollar business. That's financial benefit. At the most benign, that convinces some people to pay good money for nothing. At its worst, that leads people who really do need medical treatment to avoid it, leading to tbheir death. In the case of anti-vaccinationists, they have already lost us our best chance of eliminating polio. WE could have had a future where NOONE EVER got polio again. They ruined that future.
Why is that? BECAUSE OF VACCINATIONS!!!!!! In 1952 there were 58,000 cases, after the vaccine was mass distributed in 1957 it fell by 90%!!! By 1964, there were only 121 cases! How can that NOT convince you of the effectiveness? And, again, Sabine's live vaccine was replaced by Salk's killed vaccine decades ago.
Damn straight MMR are killers. About 1 in 1,000 die. And since in an unvaccinated population just about all kids catch it, that used to mean that 1 in 1000 children died. Here's an article on how a global vaccination campaign reduced global MMR death rates from almost 900,000 a year to under 350,000. http://www.vitabeat.com/measels-death-rate-drops-60-percent-globally/v/5451/
But since you mention Whooping cough, here's a comparison of death rates from pertussis in vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations: Anti-Vaccination Fever The Shot Hurt Around the World (Skeptical Inquirer Jan 2004)
And do you know that that was over 200 years ago? That it was real scientists that discovered the germ theory of disease, and how anti-spetics help prevent the spread of infection? Of course that had a lot to do with preventing disease, and it was science that discovered that, not holisticism, homeopathy, or any other crap. But it wasn't antiseptics that stopped polio, smallpox, or MMR.
Two reasons. First, some diseases ONLY affect people, so if we can vaccinate enough people, within a generation or two the disease will be extinct in the wild. That's what happened with smallpox, and we almost did it with polio.
Second, there's herd immunity. Some people, maybe due to a weak immune system, fail to develop immunity even when vaccinated. And some people will always refuse vaccinations for religious reasons, mental health reasons, or whatever. If enough people are vaccinated that doesn't matter much, because it's unlikely an infected person will come into contact with one of those unvaccinated people and spread the disease. ut the more unvaccinated people there are, the more likely it is that out breaks will occur.
And thanks to nuts like Jenny McCarthy Dr Mercado, your list of quotes, etc, those outbreaks are starting to happen in the US and the UK:
Measles outbreaks in the 2000s - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Annual flu-shots are a different animal altogether. They're really only reccomended for the very young, very old, or those with compromised immune systems. Most healthy people can fight off a common flu with rest and fluids. No stupid vitamin suppliments, zinc, or omega-3 needed, either.I've only ever had one flu shot - about 12 years or so ago, then I was sick for 3 days right after it. Never again, and I still don't get the flu - I might have had it once in the 12 years since.
My hubby stopped getting his yearly shot as well, and he's never been sick with flu since. While he was getting the shot every year, he was sick with flu every year.
Influenza like the H1N1 virus is different from the common flu. It's a greater worry because it is more virulent and has a higher death rate. Most people with healthy immune systems will still be fine, but like measles 1 in 1,000 adds up if it goes global.
Really? That's your go-to source? A woman who believes in "homeopathy, herbs, urine therapy, hydrotherapy, raw foods and juices, therapeutic fasts, healing clays, sunlight, thalassotherapy (seawater), nutrition, naturopathy, and more."
I would suggest you try starting here: Vaccine controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Especially look at the part about outbreaks following reductions in vaccinations: Vaccine controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No, most of the people who push the anti-vaccination line of BS are trying to sell some other so-called therapy instead, like Mercola's suppliments and cookware, or Shirley's laundry list of mumbo-jumbo "therapies."It sounded like leaford was saying the folks that don't vaccinate were getting some kind of financial benefit from those who DO vaccinate.
Just the opposite, vaccines are cheap, cost effective, and low profit:Ditto Wildsky... I don't think "they" are the ones we need to worry about thinking of their own financial benefit. Hmm... smells more like the same "they" that would benefit by controling our vaping!
Vaccine controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Vaccine controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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It sounded like leaford was saying the folks that don't vaccinate were getting some kind of financial benefit from those who DO vaccinate.
No, those who do not vaccinate their children are endangering them, and by extension all other chidren they contact. They have been duped by people who, for the most part, stand to benefit from whatever alternative treatment they suggest instead.
EDIT: oops, didn't realize I answered this twice.
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Leaford, your 100% correct all the points you made. I can remember bing keep away from other children so I would not get polio.My cousin had a mild case thank goodness. Measles, chicken pox, mumps etc. none of them were fun. It seem if it did not happen yesterday it is not known. History is very important.
I just want to apologize again to Mixxy, and also now to Wildsky, if my vehemence and passion on this issue offends you. I really am NOT aiming it at you personally. Although I would really like to convince you, it's because I think you deserve to know, and would benefit from, the facts.
We live in an era and a society where we are free from many of the common causes of death that our ancestors accepted as normal. Not two hundred years ago nearly 1 in 4 children died before their first birthday. In many parts of the world, that's still true.
For most of history an average lifespan was around 30 years old. In some parts of the world that's still true.
The difference is in the advances in modern science and science based medicine. Pseudoscience and alternative medicines are a threat to that. Like I said, even at their least hermful, they divert people's money, and at worst, can lead to them avoiding real life saving treatments.
And vaccinations are the best, most successful, most proven, most cost effective way of saving billions of lives. And the anti-vaccination hysteria is being maddingly sucessful. Already we are seeing real effects. If it goes on, deaths will skyrocket as surely as the tides will come in and the sun will rise.
And, while you are content to rely on your opinion, and the opinions of your sources, I think it's vital that those dangerously false opinions are countered by real, verified, testable and proven facts.
However, out of respect for the community I will stop now, unless anyone wants to continue it in the Take It Outside! subforum.
We live in an era and a society where we are free from many of the common causes of death that our ancestors accepted as normal. Not two hundred years ago nearly 1 in 4 children died before their first birthday. In many parts of the world, that's still true.
For most of history an average lifespan was around 30 years old. In some parts of the world that's still true.
The difference is in the advances in modern science and science based medicine. Pseudoscience and alternative medicines are a threat to that. Like I said, even at their least hermful, they divert people's money, and at worst, can lead to them avoiding real life saving treatments.
And vaccinations are the best, most successful, most proven, most cost effective way of saving billions of lives. And the anti-vaccination hysteria is being maddingly sucessful. Already we are seeing real effects. If it goes on, deaths will skyrocket as surely as the tides will come in and the sun will rise.
And, while you are content to rely on your opinion, and the opinions of your sources, I think it's vital that those dangerously false opinions are countered by real, verified, testable and proven facts.
However, out of respect for the community I will stop now, unless anyone wants to continue it in the Take It Outside! subforum.
Wildsky, your 100% correct too. I will never get any of those illness again except for shingles from having had chicken pox. I had all the shots for the other stuff including Small pox that was available in my time.
You have the right to decide for your children. Fortuntly those having the childhood illness the chance of having complications is the problem of those who have complications.
You have the right to decide for your children. Fortuntly those having the childhood illness the chance of having complications is the problem of those who have complications.
Wildsky, I've opened a thread in the Take It Outside section: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/outside/16185-vaccination-controversy.html
I would appreciate it if you, and anyone else still interested in discussing the topic take it there.
I would appreciate it if you, and anyone else still interested in discussing the topic take it there.
Leaford, I agree with pretty much everything you've said except for this.
I've looked and looked and haven't found any solid evidence of swine flu being any more virulent or deadly than the common flu. The only figures I've found are from CDC who suggest that the mortality rate in the US is a preliminary 2% (this is quite high), but that it's impossible to tell for sure due to unreported cases, and deaths that are attributed to the common flu. They actually suggest that it could be higher than 2%, which surprises me, because I think the vast majority of cases of swine flu that go unreported would not lead to death.
Now, I'm all in favour of modern medicine and vaccines, but at the same time I do not trust the pharmaceutical industry, including the WHO and the government run CDC, to always act in the best interests of the public. Maybe they're just being overcautious, but I can't help but think that there could some financial gains to be made, and that this swine flu thing is just a giant, international scare campaign to help a few people out in this financial crisis.
I'd really like to see some data from some independent research on the whole matter.
I should also point out that both swine flu and the common flu are strains of the same virus, Influenza A (H1N1).
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