Hana Modz awarded $300k in copyright battle

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jrs99

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How about the Internet bloggers getting their fair share of lawsuits. They push these "Known" Branded Logo Counterfeits to the web audience and collect hit money "links that generate them cash" from the wholesalers or resellers. They are getting a cut in the illegal trade action also. (according to U.S. trade laws) Those bloggers know exactly what they are doing and hoping nobody cares because they are pushing a cheap product that has demand and they are profiting from them. They figure they are helping the community. not- they are only helping themselves.

I used to check out vapor joe's site somewhat regularly but it got to the point where it was nothing but hawking counterfeits. I finally stopped all together when he started hiding the actual links so that you were forced to click his links so he could rake in even more profit.
 

dr g

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How about the Internet bloggers getting their fair share of lawsuits. They push these "Known" Branded Logo Counterfeits to the web audience and collect hit money "links that generate them cash" from the wholesalers or resellers. They are getting a cut in the illegal trade action also. (according to U.S. trade laws) Those bloggers know exactly what they are doing and hoping nobody cares because they are pushing a cheap product that has demand and they are profiting from them. They figure they are helping the community. not- they are only helping themselves.

I believe that is a tougher case to make as far as trademark infringement, it would actually fall under RICO if anything and that would be a serious federal criminal charge. I think the federal government would have to pursue that, not exactly sure how that works. But I would imagine they would not unilaterally pursue it at least until the FDA regulation is laid down.
 

brekec88

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That's a slap on the wrist anyway.The Chinese companies are laughing 300k and attorneys fee's. They made that on the counterfeits in the first day or two max. The only thing that might happen is no longer using the logo maybe.

The lawsuit was not against any Chinese companies, it was against US shops carrying 1:1 clones. Good for Hana.

The I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Good day sir.

So if you walked in to a store selling Samesung stereos, iPhonz and Sone computers you would Not call that a "shady" electronics store. We definitely disagree on the word shady.
 
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brekec88

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Good, $200+ for a mech mod or a V/W device, $100+ for an atty, smokers will never set feet on vaping.

I think its safe to say that 99.99999999% of beginning vapers couldn't even name a $200 mod or $100 atty, let alone know how to or even want to use such things as a starter device. So sorry that argument is invalid.


What bothers me about this case (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is the target.

As near as I can tell, Ill Vapes isn't a manufacturer - they're a B&M with a website on the side. They're selling imported clones.

So the precedent this sets isn't that manufacture of these counterfeits (a 1:1 clone complete with logos is a bootleg, a counterfeit) should be stopped. Rather, just squash the little shop that's selling them. Why? Money.

It would take more bank than Hana Modz could muster to take on the Chinese industrial counterfeiting machine in international trade courts, and even if they were to win such a battle, it would cost them more in time, effort, and legal expenses than they could ever hope to recover.

On the other hand, they've probably a noticeable advantage in that same respect over one little shop. The little shop makes an easy, convenient target, based in the US, and thus subject to US trade laws.

Ill Vapes didn't make the counterfeit.

In 2015 it does nothing to protect fair trading and competition practices to squash a brick and mortar shop for selling something anyone can order from a Chinese retailer. FT, FC, and so many others will benefit from a larger market share, and a lot of small American entrpeneurs trying to share their love of vaping will be crushed underfoot.

China does NOT recognize international copyright law. Its not only not feasible, but impossible. If Apple can not stop cheap iphone clones you think Hana Modz can stop cloning?

You make it sound like poor Ill Vapes...they knowingly ordered a bunch of 1:1 exact copies with Logos and advertised them as so. How is this OK at all?!?

If I buy a 1:1 Nike hat clone (or insert any other trademarked product) and try to sell it for a profit that is wrong and illegal. But since some one wants to by knock off vape gear on the cheap that looks exactly like an authentic it's suddenly ok? Its not acceptable in any other consumer products in our society...why should this be any different.

If you can't afford authentic gear there are PLENTY of other non clone devices out there ( Sigelei, MVP, iStick). Heck Vaporshark is selling the VS DNA 30 for $69, Erlkonigin makes the Erlprinz for around $50. There are plenty of other options on the market so there really is no excuse for buying counterfeit goods (vaping or any other kind) besides that you want the looks, features and functions of a certain device but don't want to pay for it.
 
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Dzaw

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Let me make my position crystal clear.

I am not supporting Illvapes

I am not supporting the practice of counterfeiting.

I am not saying the status quo is a good place where IP is concerned.

I AM saying that the suit in question was both pointless and destructive.

Pointless - the plaintiff accomplished nothing but to enrich some lawyers. Closing one store down is a drop in the lake vs the number of stores alone, to say nothing of the offshore internet retail side. It does nothing to actually protect the plaintiff's market share or IP in any meaningful way.

Destructive - one small store, operating in a vape gear only business model got shut down. Employer no longer, taxpayers no longer, bad press for the vaping community, all while garnering greater governmental attention, and giving money to lawyers.

Now, I could see paying all of the costs under heading 'destructive' if there were an actual point, but I just don't see it that way.


The market for e cig gear is wholly unlike sneakers or consumer electronics like stereos, phones, etc. in retail generally b&m shops are having more and more difficulty competing with the internet.small mom and pop stores are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Only big box stores have the economic muscle to compete. In our little niche market, a store can open and support itself by offering a trade off between price and convenience. However, they cannot do so without being able to offer customers product that will sell. American customers expect wal mart prices. American customers also expect certain quality and performance. If the shop were to offer only authentics, it would have a MUCH harder time covering expenses and overhead.

Ok, so a shady shop gets shut down. What's the problem? The problem is twofold.

First, the shop owner in all likelihood opened this business out of an enthusiasm for vaping. Brick and mortar shops are the public face of the community. This is where potential vapers can see, feel, and try the gear. Maybe even get some good advice, and walk out happy with a vision spinner, clearo tank, and begin their journey away from tobacco on a successful first experience. Every such shop is an asset to the community. Even selling fakes, the shop represents an economic lever that exposes potential vapers to the community and practice of vaping, growing the marketplace larger. This larger marketplace I means more vapers. More vapers means more customers. Not just for the fakes, but more customers for the real deal devices as well.

Second, it's a shoot the messenger suit. The shop in question didn't produce the fakes. They didn't advertise the fakes as authentics online (and the suit relies on online sales as the major point of equivalency). Nor did they create the market conditions in which a customer can order an inexpensive clone that performs like the original.

If I, as a former smoker ended up with a diagnosis that my doc says is definitely attributable to smoking, I wouldn't have the ability to sue a big tobacco company. I lack the resources to fight their economic might in court, and they've already settled cases that guarantee their safety from that kind of suit. Does that mean I should sue the convenience stores where I bought my death sticks?

The economic forces at work in our little niche may be present in the markets for iPods, stereos, and sneakers, but they aren't as harsh of a cold, hard reality between stay open or go out of business in those markets. Tell an American customer you'll sell them a fake iPod for $15, but it'll work pretty much like the real deal, none times out of ten, they'll walk away. Tell that same customer you'll sell them a 1:1 Hana clone for a third the price of the original, and you'll sell out faster than you can order.
 

Dzaw

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I think its safe to say that 99.99999999% of beginning vapers couldn't even name a $200 mod or $100 atty, let alone know how to or even want to use such things as a starter device. So sorry that argument is invalid.




China does NOT recognize international copyright law. Its not only not feasible, but impossible. If Apple can not stop cheap iphone clones you think Hana Modz can stop cloning?

You make it sound like poor Ill Vapes...they knowingly ordered a bunch of 1:1 exact copies with Logos and advertised them as so. How is this OK at all?!?

If I buy a 1:1 Nike hat clone (or insert any other trademarked product) and try to sell it for a profit that is wrong and illegal. But since some one wants to by knock off vape gear on the cheap that looks exactly like an authentic it's suddenly ok? Its not acceptable in any other consumer products in our society...why should this be any different.

If you can't afford authentic gear there are PLENTY of other non clone devices out there ( Sigelei, MVP, iStick). Heck Vaporshark is selling the VS DNA 30 for $69, Erlkonigin makes the Erlprinz for around $50. There are plenty of other options on the market so there really is no excuse for buying counterfeit goods (vaping or any other kind) besides that you want the looks, features and functions of a certain device but don't want to pay for it.


I didn't say it was at all ok.

I did say it was pointless and counterproductive.

How did Hana Modz get anything out of this excercise? They shot themselves in the foot for no reason than to punish one of the thousands of little fish. Why? Because they can't fight the big fish.
 

graffiti

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There's one way to fix the problem of cloning: Make a product that's difficult to clone and sell for 1/10 the price of the authentic.

I have one expensive authentic mech, the GUS Yumina. There's no clones out there. In fact, there's no clones of their attys, and only the lord has been cloned and that's a horrible clone.
 

JMarca

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There's one way to fix the problem of cloning: Make a product that's difficult to clone and sell for 1/10 the price of the authentic.

I have one expensive authentic mech, the GUS Yumina. There's no clones out there. In fact, there's no clones of their attys, and only the lord has been cloned and that's a horrible clone.

Oh you mean like the Provari?
It's been cloned time and time again over the years and all the clones suck. The Vamo was really the only one that took off and it paled in comparison.

Problem is for that to happen you need top quality materials and mod makers to stop using hot glue and aluminum boxes to make mods, they also need to design their own chips and making something like that isn't easy.

Oh, and there is no need to rip yourself off.
 

skoony

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I can't speak to whether or not Illvapes was trying to fool anyone, but a quick google search shows at least one youtube that was up as "Hana Modz clone preview" associated with Illvapes.

The shop may well have been trying to pass them off as authentic at their actual retail location, I just don't know, being on the east coast.

I'd like to see the same. That's why I grind the logos off of my clones. My brass nemmy clone and brass tobh clone are both logo free. However, the "generic" non 1:1 clones are just too hit or miss in the Q/A department.

Also, unless I'm very much mistaken, Hana will now have to fight very hard to protect that special trade mark. The problem with IP laws is that you cannot simply decide to overlook even a small infraction. They're going to have to similarly go after any/every seller of counterfeit Hana products that they become aware of, or surrender their right to go after any of them at all.

Again, the little shop suffers. The actual criminal laughs all the way to the bank.

Pointless and destructive lawsuit. Not a win/win, its a lose/lose.

they are not obligated in any shape or form to go after each
and every violator. however after winning this case they may
choose to cherry pick cases that are higher profile and more
likely to to receive greater coverage with actual damages
being paid. with this case in hand it will be cheaper and
easier if and when the next case comes along. this case
benefits other manufacturers whom can cite it as precedent.
as the industry matures the likelihood of these types of
cases will increase.
:2c:
regards
mike
 

skoony

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nope.

not. going. to. happen.

Hana will quickly find it simply too expensive to pursue each and every B&M out there for no payout. As has been adequately pointed out, for several reasons, they're out their own legal fees, and won't even be able to recover those.

They may have pockets deeper than one store, but there's a whole lotta shops out there.

This is much like a death penalty argument. Sooner or later, someone always brings up the deterrent effect in that debate. Not going into whether or not I'm for or against, I will say that I find the deterrent argument similarly unconvincing and ineffectual In that debate.

they are not going to run around in circles with this.
they'll pick and choose their targets.
when other manufacturers jump in using this case
as precedent then the snowball really starts rolling.
:2c:
mike
 

crxess

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Oh you mean like the Provari?
It's been cloned time and time again over the years and all the clones suck. The Vamo was really the only one that took off and it paled in comparison.

Problem is for that to happen you need top quality materials and mod makers to stop using hot glue and aluminum boxes to make mods, they also need to design their own chips and making something like that isn't easy.

Oh, and there is no need to rip yourself off.

Vamo never was a Clone of Provari and is not even in question as to the topic. It may have failed in comparison, but seriously comparing a $30 regulated to a $200 Regulated? It has also well out stripped Provari in sales in its short existence.
Vamo was also pretty much Ground zero for RMS regulated LOW COST mods.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.:D
 

skoony

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I didn't say it was at all ok.

I did say it was pointless and counterproductive.

How did Hana Modz get anything out of this excercise? They shot themselves in the foot for no reason than to punish one of the thousands of little fish. Why? Because they can't fight the big fish.

it has a point. it sets a precedent.
it will be productive when others cite
this case as a precedent in their own
case.
:2c:
mike
 

JMarca

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Vamo never was a Clone of Provari and is not even in question as to the topic. It may have failed in comparison, but seriously comparing a $30 regulated to a $200 Regulated? It has also well out stripped Provari in sales in its short existence.
Vamo was also pretty much Ground zero for RMS regulated LOW COST mods.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.:D

The vamo's original design was VERY much so a cheap attempt to clone a provari. Yes it was the entryway to RMS but it wasn't very good (especially when they first came out). I don't think it was worth it at all, vamo was around 50 dollars when it came out Provari was 179 considering the rattlesnake chip china put in there doesn't seem like a very good value to me. As to how many it sold yes it sold more than the Provari, but that has alot to do with consumer mentaility, people back then were buying cheap and buying mods over and over again, while my handed down 2009 v1 Provari still works.
 
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The Cloud Minder

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I beg to disagree with some of you, my fellow vapers.

If branded or not don't mean a thing. If it walks like a duck.......

We have a very easy case with a competitor that dared to put his brand in our product.
With minor changes. No dice. They're willing to settle from the get go. We don't.
We want blood. Red, unadulterated blood.

Problem is, if you let one slide, the avalanche is unstoppable.
It's like the loan sharks. They really don't want to hit people. All they want is their dough.
But you need to set a precedent, once in a while, just to keep the other customers honest.
At the end we will lose money. But will preserve the integrity of the brand.
-
Whatever, I'm more concerned about the integrity of my lungs and being able to afford decent vaping equipment, I don't give a swut about Hana's profit margins.
 

Bad Ninja

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it has a point. it sets a precedent.
it will be productive when others cite
this case as a precedent in their own
case.
:2c:
mike
No it doesn't.
They won because Ilvapes didn't bother to show up.


They sued a retailer who can simply file BK and shut their doors.
Hana won't get a dime.



They went after the only person they could: a small retailer with no attorney.

Maybe if they followed a sensible business plan, there would have been no need to sue.

Hanna has a horrible reputation for customer service.
 

brekec88

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I didn't say it was at all ok.

I did say it was pointless and counterproductive.

How did Hana Modz get anything out of this excercise? They shot themselves in the foot for no reason than to punish one of the thousands of little fish. Why? Because they can't fight the big fish.

Pointless? A company was selling direct copies of their product and they stopped them. That is neither pointless or counter productive. They paid $7,000 to make online shops think twice about carrying 1:1 clone Hana Modz (or any other clone) for that matter. What don't you understand about that?

Also you say they put IllVapes out of work (GOOD!)...what about Hana Modz loss from IllVapes selling counterfeit goods. Are they not also a small US company with employees and taxes but are actually making and selling ORIGINAL NON FAKE goods.

Would you feel sorry for a sweatshop that makes fake Polo clothing when it gets shut down?

There's one way to fix the problem of cloning: Make a product that's difficult to clone and sell for 1/10 the price of the authentic.

I have one expensive authentic mech, the GUS Yumina. There's no clones out there. In fact, there's no clones of their attys, and only the lord has been cloned and that's a horrible clone.

Just because you don't think something is not worth a certain amount or can't afford something does NOT make it alright to buy FAKE Knock off gear. Justify it however you want but when it comes down to it, its still wrong.

Vamo never was a Clone of Provari and is not even in question as to the topic. It may have failed in comparison, but seriously comparing a $30 regulated to a $200 Regulated? It has also well out stripped Provari in sales in its short existence.
Vamo was also pretty much Ground zero for RMS regulated LOW COST mods.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.:D

Lol comparing a Vamo to a Provari is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Roles Royce. Yea sure they both drive on a road and Ford probably sold 1000x more Pintos. I still don't want a Pinto. Obviously something 1/10 of the price will sell more...people are cheap. Tell me how many Pintos are still running today though. You get what you pay for and I'm confident a Provari would outlast 10 Vamos. Having something sell a lot 'usually' doesn't indicate quality but in fact the exact opposite.
 
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Bad Ninja

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Pointless? A company was selling direct copies of there product and they stopped them. That is neither pointless or counter productive. They paid 7,000 to make online shops think twice about carrying 1:1 clone Hana Modz (or any other clone) for that matter. What don't you understand about that?

Also you say they put IllVapes out of work (GOOD!)...what about Hana Modz loss from IllVapes selling counterfeit goods. Are they not also a small US company with employees and taxes but are actually making and selling ORIGINAL NON FAKE goods.

Would you feel sorry for a sweatshop that makes fake Polo clothing when it gets shut down?


But they didn't.
They did not sue a manufacturer. Only one small retail
Vape store.

It was only over the logo.
Clones without the logo are not affected.

Hanna just wasted 7 grand.
Some attorney got a fat paycheck.
 

skoony

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No it doesn't.
They won because Ilvapes didn't bother to show up.


They sued a retailer who can simply file BK and shut their doors.
Hana won't get a dime.



They went after the only person they could: a small retailer with no attorney.

Maybe if they followed a sensible business plan, there would have been no need to sue.

Hanna has a horrible reputation for customer service.

that means they had no defense. they closed shop
and scrammed.
when more and more stores file bankruptcy good.
sooner or later others will get the hint.
its a good ruling that will only bring good things
to the vaping "community".
one would think the precedent alone means more
than the money at this point.
regards
mike
 

skoony

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But they didn't.
They did not sue a manufacturer. Only one small retail
Vape store.

It was only over the logo.
Clones without the logo are not affected.

Hanna just wasted 7 grand.
Some attorney got a fat paycheck.

the manufacturer is in China. it is not illegal
in China. the B&M was here. here it illegal
to sell fake merchandise.
this is just a start.1.1 fakes are also illigal.
they'll get around to them also.
$7,000.00 seams like a good investment
looking towards the future.
mike
 

brekec88

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the manufacturer is in China. it is not illegal
in China. the B&M was here. here it illegal
to sell fake merchandise.
this is just a start.1.1 fakes are also illigal.
they'll get around to them also.
$7,000.00 seams like a good investment
looking towards the future.
mike

Yea I agree.

Sorry Bad Ninja I'm not even going to argue anymore with some one who thinks $7000 is a "fat paycheck" for an attorney. LOL
 
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