Has vaping lost way?

[Zaryk]

If you get down to it, pretty much every man made item/chemical/product can potentially cause harm to the environment or population. The Dyson Pure Cool for example, that tells you when the air is potentially harmful, likely contains materials inside like electronics, plastics, filter materials, etc that could be harmful to the enviroment itself. There is very little that is exempt, people just choose what they want to target. Especially if it can get attention or be financially beneficial. Sadly, vaping is controversial and gets attention, and some powerful people can benefit from it's demise, so it is a large target.

 

[dripster]

You bring up a very interesting point. When I first started vaping eight years ago all the e cig companies targeted their advertising messages towards converting people from cigarette smoking to vaping. The devices being sold were all MTL with various quality levels. In my opinion the big impact to vaping hardware began with Provari who produced, I believe, the highest quality device at the time on the market. Other manufactures started to produce better products such as the EGO Twist to compete. But still the thrust was to convert cigarette smokers to vapors. The industry and vaping itself has evolved greatly over the past five years with introduction of variable wattage vs variable voltage, temperature controlled devices, sub ohm vaping, Nic salts, pod systems, rebuildable coils, DIY juice and many other innovations. Most advertisements you see today from vape companies emphasize the new technologies as compared to what is currently available. It appears to me that this approach is targeted to current vapors and not so much to convert smokers to e cigarettes. I was able to convert a number of smokers to vapors over the years by explaining the basics of vaping which was pretty simple. If asked today what I would recommend to start with when converting, I would recommend a quality MTL setup to start (thats what smoking is) and explain that as they get more into vaping there are many other options to explore. I think this forum does a great job in educating both new vapors and veterans in this regard. I believe that manufactures should do a better job on there websites explaining starter kit recommendations vs the more advanced items. In closing I would like to say that I believe we as vapors are starting to make some progress to get vaping accepted as a much safer alternative to cigarette smoking but we still have a long way to go especially with all the "fake news" out there relating to vaping.

Vape on-Artie

I strongly advise against the assertion that MTL is the best way to start vaping. MTL, including sub-ohm MTL, in the vast majority of cases will lead to dual use, which, if it can be possible to avoid, should be avoided because it greatly increases the potential risk of instant failure or eventually relapsing when trying to use vaping as a smoking cessation tool, and, if I had started vaping by choosing an MTL setup, right now I would still be smoking cigarettes because MTL just isn't a satisfying vape.

 

[Myk]

Generally, at the Local Level, it is, in fact, constituents calling and emailing in complaints .. It's the perception of smoke .. now, who would advocate for an "Invisible Vape Liquid .. ?" .. No vape user that I know of .. we like to see the "puff" .. do away with that and you're Golden ..

Absolutely positively NOT. It is groups like ALA and ACS who bring it local like it always has been. And who do you think gives them money? And who do you think commands them? Pharma, cigarette taxes and cigarette MSA and the UN.
The blaming of cloud chasers is just how they got us to eat our own.

If you were a local business who didn't want people vaping in your store what is easier, telling the vaper, "Stop vaping or leave." and if they don't stop vaping you call the cops and have them charged with trespass. Or, you get a group of businesses together to lobby your council to ban vaping so that if someone is vaping in your shop you can tell them "You're not allowed to vape inside." and then call the cops if they don't stop to have them fined?

Well our minister of public health did claim in front of the news camera, after vapers had decided to go vape in front of her house during a protest manifestation, at a certain point the clouds grew so big that they were rising above her roof and that "that simply can't be good" so what more do you want me to say when it comes to the association between the visibility of the clouds and perceived harmfulness as opposed to rigorous scientific research on the topic of whether second hand vapor poses a serious threat to human health. You should see the red levels of nitrogen dioxide that are being detected almost every other day by my Dyson Pure Cool (2018 model) built-in sensor mechanism despite I don't even live in an area where there's a lot of car traffic, and compare those to the official charts from our state organization that officially monitors these levels, to get a handle on the grotesqueness of the true situation we are dealing with.

A cloud of vapor hung over top of her house? That's odd because vapor and fog machines have their clouds hang next to the ground.
So she lied and the media ate it up and people believed it. Because if you want people to believe a lie make it a big one.

Yes we lost the perception battle with the "water vapor" lie. People should've been saying they're mini fog machines, it's true and it's the same harmless fog people inhale at concerts and halloween parties.

 

[Pete M]

I strongly advise against the assertion that MTL is the best way to start vaping. MTL, including sub-ohm MTL, in the vast majority of cases will lead to dual use, which, if it can be possible to avoid, should be avoided because it greatly increases the potential risk of instant failure or eventually relapsing when trying to use vaping as a smoking cessation tool, and, if I had started vaping by choosing an MTL setup, right now I would still be smoking cigarettes because MTL just isn't a satisfying vape.

Opposite for me. I wanted MTL replacement for cigs because I smoked them MTL.Different for everyone I think because if direct lung sub ohm vaping was the only game in town I'd be back in the fags pretty quickly!

 

[Uncle Willie]

Absolutely positively NOT. It is groups like ALA and ACS who bring it local like it always has been. And who do you think gives them money? And who do you think commands them? Pharma, cigarette taxes and cigarette MSA and the UN.
The blaming of cloud chasers is just how they got us to eat our own.

Believe what you like .. I've been involved with Local Government .. when cigarettes were banned in IL in Public Places and along came The Vape, it was local non-smoking constituents that raised "The Stink" on the Vape by calling Local Government officials .. well before any "Group" you mention .. it's no different today ..

 

[dripster]

If you get down to it, pretty much every man made item/chemical/product can potentially cause harm to the environment or population. The Dyson Pure Cool for example, that tells you when the air is potentially harmful, likely contains materials inside like electronics, plastics, filter materials, etc that could be harmful to the enviroment itself. There is very little that is exempt, people just choose what they want to target. Especially if it can get attention or be financially beneficial. Sadly, vaping is controversial and gets attention, and some powerful people can benefit from it's demise, so it is a large target.

If you get down to it, most civilians see my clouds, but what they often don't see, and therefore don't usually describe as "that simply can't be good", is that in my area despite there isn't a lot of car traffic, almost every other day the concentrations of nitrogen dioxide in the outside air tend to look like this:

 

[CMD-Ky]

"Water vapor", a terribly misleading lie, easily proven to be a lie.

Absolutely positively NOT. It is groups like ALA and ACS who bring it local like it always has been. And who do you think gives them money? And who do you think commands them? Pharma, cigarette taxes and cigarette MSA and the UN.
The blaming of cloud chasers is just how they got us to eat our own.

If you were a local business who didn't want people vaping in your store what is easier, telling the vaper, "Stop vaping or leave." and if they don't stop vaping you call the cops and have them charged with trespass. Or, you get a group of businesses together to lobby your council to ban vaping so that if someone is vaping in your shop you can tell them "You're not allowed to vape inside." and then call the cops if they don't stop to have them fined?




A cloud of vapor hung over top of her house? That's odd because vapor and fog machines have their clouds hang next to the ground.
So she lied and the media ate it up and people believed it. Because if you want people to believe a lie make it a big one.

Yes we lost the perception battle with the "water vapor" lie. People should've been saying they're mini fog machines, it's true and it's the same harmless fog people inhale at concerts and halloween parties.

 

[jmur]

In my mind the public perception is where I want to see greater momentum...

That's a tough nut to crack, the deck is stacked against us...

I agree with both thoughts. What I see as our biggest detriment is the mainstream media. A day does not go by without hearing of some new spurious threat to our lives and health that vaping clearly causes. So they tell me. And...millions of others. Eventually these unproven claims settle themselves into non-vapers (or potential vapers) minds. THAT is a very hard fight to win.

 

[Myk]

Believe what you like .. I've been involved with Local Government .. when cigarettes were banned in IL in Public Places and along came The Vape, it was local non-smoking constituents that raised "The Stink" on the Vape by calling Local Government officials .. well before any "Group" you mention .. it's no different today ..

Odd, we never got any alerts about it in IL earlier than this and it wasn't until after this that it was decided we shouldn't swamp locals with international outrage. And I would've thought a bigger city would've been bigger news than Duluth.
Duluth says no to e-cigarettes; state says it will consider options

You might be surprise to find out those "local constituents" are either employed by or pushed by those two groups. I'm not. That is how they work.
Oh yes the lady who worked next to where I worked was mentioned in our local article as a concerned citizen. Yet I know she works for ACS.

 

[Zaryk]

If you get down to it, most civilians see my clouds, but what they often don't see, and therefore don't usually describe as "that simply can't be good", is that in my area despite there isn't a lot of car traffic, almost every other day the concentrations of nitrogen dioxide in the outside air tend to look like this:

View attachment 759269

That wasn't my point at all. I know polution exists, and dont need proof of that. I just wanted to say that almost all man made products are dangerous in some way.

If there is something to gain in making a big deal out of it, then somebody will make a big deal out of it. I just used your Dyson as an example since it is ironic that it is supposed to make the air safe, but if tossed out in the garbage for example, it could potentially damage the environment or living creatures. And that people will blindly toss harmful products and chemicals into the environment while standing on their soap box screaming that vaping is dangerous.

I'm not a tree hugger in any way. I too contribute to pollution and such, I just choose not to criticize others for doing it in other ways than I do.

I also stay as far from any and all political anything as I can. I have never once contributed to it and never will. No voting, no political arguments, just avoidance of the whole mess.

 

[Buckeyevapen]

And you would be shut down by the FDA because you are making medical claims. Tell me it's all about clouds with a government like that.
Ah. Well in my hypothetical store neither myself nor my marketing would say anything about being "healthier than smoking".
Of course the custom wall paper made from quotes of the Royal College of Physicians would be free reading for all patrons who walked through the door.



I tried telling my city council that. Although I believe they don't think forcing vapers outside will keep people smoking I'm sure the tobacco control groups who get paid by how many cigarettes are sold who convinced my city council to ban vaping indoors know exactly what they are doing.

The only restaurants that were complaining were the restaurants that didn't allow vaping complaining so those that do wouldn't take away their customers.
This follows a set pattern around the world and has since the beginning. It even has the exact same phrases/speeches given around the world. This is not about some local people going to government begging for laws because someone blew too big of clouds.

 

[dripster]

That wasn't my point at all. I know polution exists, and dont need proof of that. I just wanted to say that almost all man made products are dangerous in some way.

If there is something to gain in making a big deal out of it, then somebody will make a big deal out of it. I just used your Dyson as an example since it is ironic that it is supposed to make the air safe, but if tossed out in the garbage for example, it could potentially damage the environment or living creatures. And that people will blindly toss harmful products and chemicals into the environment while standing on their soap box screaming that vaping is dangerous.

I'm not a tree hugger in any way. I too contribute to pollution and such, I just choose not to criticize others for doing it in other ways than I do.

I also stay as far from any and all political anything as I can. I have never once contributed to it and never will. No voting, no political arguments, just avoidance of the whole mess.

Devices such as my Dyson help people to understand that the information we are getting from our governmental institutions and organizations regarding the gravity of risk factors that are affecting our health might be incomplete or inaccurate to the point of being severely misleading. The potential damage to the environment or living creatures that occurs as a result from the manufacturing and distrubution process as well as disposal of these devices is nowhere nearly as significant as the aforementioned benefit so it is all about knowing priorities. Nitrogen dioxide is carcinogenic, nicotine isn't. There's barely any nicotine present in second hand vapor anyway in the first place.

Speaking of irony, a few moments ago on the evening news there was the report that the emission of fine dust particles such as the soot from burning fossil fuel (diesel car exhausts, oil used in central heating, petrochemical factories,...) creates a much more severe health problem than was first assumed, as a recent study in England has shown. I take it you are at least a little bit worried about your own health or else you wouldn't have started vaping. But as long as too many people are going to continue sticking their head in the sand, a few years from now the vaping world as it exists now will be hammered out of existence due to highly unscrupulous rude politics and corporate greed.

 

[dripster]

How can a vape shop sell vape products if they can't vape in their own vape shop?

"All in front of the cathedral" type of philosophy provides logic.

 

[dripster]

Absolutely positively NOT. It is groups like ALA and ACS who bring it local like it always has been. And who do you think gives them money? And who do you think commands them? Pharma, cigarette taxes and cigarette MSA and the UN.
The blaming of cloud chasers is just how they got us to eat our own.

If you were a local business who didn't want people vaping in your store what is easier, telling the vaper, "Stop vaping or leave." and if they don't stop vaping you call the cops and have them charged with trespass. Or, you get a group of businesses together to lobby your council to ban vaping so that if someone is vaping in your shop you can tell them "You're not allowed to vape inside." and then call the cops if they don't stop to have them fined?




A cloud of vapor hung over top of her house? That's odd because vapor and fog machines have their clouds hang next to the ground.
So she lied and the media ate it up and people believed it. Because if you want people to believe a lie make it a big one.

Yes we lost the perception battle with the "water vapor" lie. People should've been saying they're mini fog machines, it's true and it's the same harmless fog people inhale at concerts and halloween parties.

If you knew what she looks like you would know she is quite capable to displace a lot of air so maybe that was what caused the clouds to fly above her roof.

 

[Myk]

Ah. Well in my hypothetical store neither myself nor my marketing would say anything about being "healthier than smoking".
Of course the custom wall paper made from quotes of the Royal College of Physicians would be free reading for all patrons who walked through the door.

Quit smoking is enough.
It never was enough to "chew hard candy to quit smoking" or "pay me to hypnotize you to quit smoking" but magically with ecigs quitting smoking is bad.

 

[Pete M]

Main thing I think has gone awry when it comes to the use of vaping to quit smoking is the perception of it being somethingyyou need to be a dedicated hobbyist to achieve. As opposed to being accessible and options that are easy for all.

No, the cloud chasing in bus shelters thing is anti social stuff that doesn't help.

But worse are things like the staff in a lot of vape shops I know making themselves unfriendly to new vapers. Someone just wants a standard fixed wattage tank to stop smoking and almost but not quite gets laughed at for not knowing enough about ohms or something. I've seen that in a few places - regulars propping up the counter showing off the e cig equivalent of the iPhone X to each other and putting off people who wanted a Motorola because it already looks like some gang they're not a part of.

So that guy just buys one over the counter because he doesn't want anything show offy - it tastes rubbish lasts about half an hour and now he thinks he knows vaping is rubbish.

That I think is how we lost our way slightly - unintentionally we became a sub culture when we should be the mainstream.

Just my 2 pence obviously..

 

[Doffy]

Apparently vaping lost its way some time before I started, in 2013. According to those that started 2012 or before.

Every generation
Blames the one before
And all of their frustrations
Come beating on your door

 

[Pete M]

Main thing I think has gone awry when it comes to the use of vaping to quit smoking is the perception of it being somethingyyou need to be a dedicated hobbyist to achieve. As opposed to being accessible and options that are easy for all.

No, the cloud chasing in bus shelters thing is anti social stuff that doesn't help.

But worse are things like the staff in a lot of vape shops I know making themselves unfriendly to new vapers. Someone just wants a standard fixed wattage tank to stop smoking and almost but not quite gets laughed at for not knowing enough about ohms or something. I've seen that in a few places - regulars propping up the counter showing off the e cig equivalent of the iPhone X to each other and putting off people who wanted a Motorola because it already looks like some gang they're not a part of.

So that guy just buys one over the counter because he doesn't want anything show offy - it tastes rubbish lasts about half an hour and now he thinks he knows vaping is rubbish.

That I think is how we lost our way slightly - unintentionally we became a sub culture when we should be the mainstream.

Just my 2 pence obviously..

I should have emphasised the word SLIGHTLY above - I don't really think vaping has lost its way on the whole

 

[dripster]

Apparently vaping lost its way some time before I started, in 2013. According to those that started 2012 or before.

Every generation
Blames the one before
And all of their frustrations
Come beating on your door

I started in January last year, but I don't blame the previous generation. Instead, I just consider myself lucky (and smart of course) that I didn't listen to useless advice from those who keep claiming the best way to start is MTL or a tank, as doing that would have caused me to abandon vaping thinking vaping is not for me, although I guess I could still blame myself for having seriously delayed my decision to start.

 

[Zaryk]

Devices such as my Dyson help people to understand that the information we are getting from our govermnetal institutions and organizations regarding the gravity of risk factors that are affecting our health might be incomplete or inaccurate to the point of being severely misleading. The potential damage to the environment or living creatures that occurs as a result from the manufacturing and distrubution process as well as disposal of these devices is nowhere nearly as significant as the aforementioned benefit so it is all about knowing priorities. Nitrogen dioxide is carcinogenic, nicotine isn't. There's barely any nicotine present in second hand vapor anyway in the first place.

Speaking of irony, a few moments ago on the evening news there was the report that the emission of fine dust particles such as the soot from burning fossil fuel (diesel car exhausts, oil used in central heating, petrochemical factories,...) creates a much more severe health problem than was first assumed, as a recent study in England has shown. I take it you are at least a little bit worried about your own health or else you wouldn't have started vaping. But as long as too many people are going to continue sticking their head in the sand, a few years from now the vaping world as it exists now will be hammered out of existence due to highly unscrupulous rude politics and corporate greed.

Again, you missed my point. But that's fine. I don't expect everyone to understand.