No, I don't think I missed your point. There is nothing ironical about the fact throwing air cleaning devices in the garbage is causing real harm to the environment, as that is simply unavoidable, whereas harm reduction by knowing priorities and taking the appropriate actions accordingly, isn't unavoidable by any stretch of the imagination because harm reduction by vaping instead of smoking is living proof so if vaping has lost momentum or is going to, it will be because appropriate actions are not being carried out, and, sadly, the big bucks are immorally preventing those actions as I'm typing this.
Has vaping lost way?
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That wasn't my experience...I started and successfully quit smoking using mtl stuff. But, back then, that's all there was . Of the 20 or so smokers I introduced to vaping, all but 1 or 2 remain smoke free. All started with mtl devices. Some still use mtl and some have adopted vaping as a hobby. None of them had any interest in lung blasts or clouds. I doubt any of them, including myself, would've given vaping a chance if dl cloud gear was the only option. But, in your defense, all these folks are grown ups.
I think people should try a MTL and DL tank together early on, because honestly one does limit you to larger amounts (usually) of batteries and eliquid, and one also tends to become attached to what one is accustomed to already, early on.
Also, there is a difference between "annoying" and "literally harmful." I was at Costco today, and I find bad parenting extraordinarily ANNOYING like every time it happens I want to go up to the parent or relative and shake it. It's not the noise, either ,if some mom sets a limit with a toddler and it has a fit and the mom holds firm, I am all "GO MAMA!!!" and I have BEEN that mom, and frankly YOUR ears, kind people, matter less to me than letting my toddler grow into whatever "his" version of Alexander the Great was going to be (so glad I didn't have to find out..) But you know, letting the kid hit you in the face, then hitting it back until YOU win? I really.... have to move away.
I put vape in that category. I was at Costco, vaping quietly and very low vapor near a "bad" family and we were BOTH giving each other the stinky-eye, it was a mutual STARE down, as it were.
Fortunately, I was distracted by this 80 year old lady holding her (it looked like a Juul) Gabriel's Trumpet like on the sky and inhaling on it SO LONG it was, well I was spell bound and she let out a veritable CLOUD of "I'm an old lady, I can do as I please." I had to run over and congratulate her, both on her lung capacity, and her fortitude in the face of societal disapproval.
Vaping is like that. There has been NO definitive proof that vaping is harmful to bystanders, and to those who are complaining about "vague headaches" and stuff, well I say, "Lady, that might work on your husband, but it doesn't work on me."
She may or may NOT summon management, but I think (apart from restaurants because, well food and odor do mesh) we should be old lady Gabriel trumpet and vape long and vape proud.
AND there is no way my waiting to be told politely by management not to vape somewhere is hurting someone and the fact is I KNOW it isn't but the point for me is:
Lots of things can be annoying (including vaping) but I am going to do them, and try to be tactful but if *I* have to be perfect well so do you, so if they evil family had attacked my vape, I would have attacked their parenting.
Because the standard should be "is it harmful" not "is it annoying you." And, vaping was doomed from the moment it achieved success, so we might as well still have the fun we can have in Public, before we have to go all dark arts on things. At which point I will have slightly more dangerous fun, but vaping was doomed the moment Society (at least in the US) decided that it was "too effective and fun" a harm reduction method. They convince the "sheep" by studies, but it was not "complaints by the general public" that sealed the deal, as most people will complain about many things but governments getting threatened and it is the fault of ZERO members of the vaping community.
Anna
Also, there is a difference between "annoying" and "literally harmful." I was at Costco today, and I find bad parenting extraordinarily ANNOYING like every time it happens I want to go up to the parent or relative and shake it. It's not the noise, either ,if some mom sets a limit with a toddler and it has a fit and the mom holds firm, I am all "GO MAMA!!!" and I have BEEN that mom, and frankly YOUR ears, kind people, matter less to me than letting my toddler grow into whatever "his" version of Alexander the Great was going to be (so glad I didn't have to find out..) But you know, letting the kid hit you in the face, then hitting it back until YOU win? I really.... have to move away.
I put vape in that category. I was at Costco, vaping quietly and very low vapor near a "bad" family and we were BOTH giving each other the stinky-eye, it was a mutual STARE down, as it were.
Fortunately, I was distracted by this 80 year old lady holding her (it looked like a Juul) Gabriel's Trumpet like on the sky and inhaling on it SO LONG it was, well I was spell bound and she let out a veritable CLOUD of "I'm an old lady, I can do as I please." I had to run over and congratulate her, both on her lung capacity, and her fortitude in the face of societal disapproval.
Vaping is like that. There has been NO definitive proof that vaping is harmful to bystanders, and to those who are complaining about "vague headaches" and stuff, well I say, "Lady, that might work on your husband, but it doesn't work on me."
She may or may NOT summon management, but I think (apart from restaurants because, well food and odor do mesh) we should be old lady Gabriel trumpet and vape long and vape proud.
AND there is no way my waiting to be told politely by management not to vape somewhere is hurting someone and the fact is I KNOW it isn't but the point for me is:
Lots of things can be annoying (including vaping) but I am going to do them, and try to be tactful but if *I* have to be perfect well so do you, so if they evil family had attacked my vape, I would have attacked their parenting.
Because the standard should be "is it harmful" not "is it annoying you." And, vaping was doomed from the moment it achieved success, so we might as well still have the fun we can have in Public, before we have to go all dark arts on things. At which point I will have slightly more dangerous fun, but vaping was doomed the moment Society (at least in the US) decided that it was "too effective and fun" a harm reduction method. They convince the "sheep" by studies, but it was not "complaints by the general public" that sealed the deal, as most people will complain about many things but governments getting threatened and it is the fault of ZERO members of the vaping community.
Anna
All the vapers I know are grown ups, most of them mech users like myself. In fact none of them are under 30, and I am 44, but hardly anyone I know is using MTL.
Only once in my 8 years of vaping discretely in public have I been singled out and told that their establishment didn't allow vaping. That was a large chain steak house. I complied and waited until I got outside. The manager came over and politely said they had a national policy of no vaping, even on the bar side.
I'm as discrete as possible with my 10W vape and that's the only time I've had anyone tell me not to. I blow it under the table, hold it in until there's no vapor left, and turn it down to 8 watts in an attempt to keep it out of sight.
One of the attractions of vaping is the ability to be able to vape around people without make yourself and them smell like smoke by being around the vapor. We certainly don't want vaping to get a reputation for being obnoxious, as smoking did. When I smoked I hated to walk through the smoke from half a dozen people smoking outside before going in.
I'm as discrete as possible with my 10W vape and that's the only time I've had anyone tell me not to. I blow it under the table, hold it in until there's no vapor left, and turn it down to 8 watts in an attempt to keep it out of sight.
One of the attractions of vaping is the ability to be able to vape around people without make yourself and them smell like smoke by being around the vapor. We certainly don't want vaping to get a reputation for being obnoxious, as smoking did. When I smoked I hated to walk through the smoke from half a dozen people smoking outside before going in.
Even if I had started by using a DL tank I would still be smoking cigarettes thinking vaping is not for me. I started with a pair of handmade fused claptons at 80 watts in a Wotofo Troll RDA 2, that I bumped to 90 watts after one week, and I built my own pair of staple staggered fused claptons all the way from point zero within my first vaping month, replaced the fused claptons with them whilst bumping my Reuleaux RX2/3 to 140 watts, and then I grabbed the Reuleaux RX300 another week or so after that.
Yeah, there is no better way to quit smoking than vaping tripple staggered claptons at 140 watts... but they really need to be hand made... if you buy them premade - you have to increase wattage to 200 watts but even with 200 watts anybody who is serious about quitting smoking have to use RDA because RTAs will not cut it even at 240 Watts... and all those people that claim that vaping MTL helped them quit are either liars or insane or... work for big tobacco...
Not even "is it harmful to you" but is it "harmful to everyone". If it was "is it harmful to me" sick people would have to stay out of pharmacies. But I'm smart enough to realize mine is a special case and it is me who has to bend so I wear a mask and put up with the looks from the sick people who obviously aren't smart enough to figure out if you're sick and have to go out in public wear a mask, either that or they're controlled by an alien invading organism that compels them to go forth and multiply their germs.
As I can't do much PG my ability to be discrete was somewhat limited even way back. So I ask and comply. When I'm in someone's house that allows me but is a non-smoker I take shorter puffs and blow them away from people. If I need a cloud I step aside or go outside. But if I'm in a smoker's house, "Dude, your clouds are weak, bro. Watch this." and they give me crap back by pretending to choke.
The courts give those out for free here.
I question whether the industry has ever been about “healthy alternatives,” actually. They tried to use that kind of language early on and ran into legal trouble over it. They (and we) switched to “harm reduction” in order to be more accurate.
In my experience there has always been a mix of people involved with vaping. Many are doing it to get off of traditional cigarettes. Others are dedicated to it just as intensely as any other drug delivery system.
In a way, they’d be correct. This is a huge and growing industry that the big tobacco companies have a giant stake in now. How do we fix that? Simple. Same as before: quit.
I don’t think anyone denies that vaping is a less risky proposition than smoking. But I also doubt anyone here thinks it’s a zero risk situation or that it wouldn’t be in their best interests to just stop altogether.
Addiction is a tricky issue.
For you. Not true for others. I quit with mtl, 1.6 ohms, 10 watts. One size does not fit all. All of the smokers I helped quit used the same stuff I had, except one, who used a cigalike.
If I were asked to recommend a starter kit right now, I would not hesitate to list a few pods. They’re cheap and easy. It’s a great way to dip a toe in and at least see if it could potentially help a person quit, and not everyone is willing to spend $50-100 like I was on a long shot. I’d also let them know, you’re not going to want to use that pod forever, most likely.
Just because it helped them quit a long time ago in the past when MTL was the only style that existed, doesn't necessarily make MTL the best way to quit at present day. It really does vary an awful lot from person to person, but for me and for almost everyone I know MTL is just an unsatisfying vape. The best way to quit is to avoid quitting by stopping instead, i.e. without the struggle that defines "quit" (at least in my book), but in the vast majority of cases that's simply not possible in any way. BUT... you don't know that it's impossible if you haven't tried it yourself so I don't go around telling people that they shouldn't try it that way, as I know I'm not the only living proof that it is absolutely very possible to some. Not only it was possible for me, but also right off the bat I enjoyed vaping a lot more than I enjoyed smoking cigarettes. Learning how to rewick and learning how to avoid getting a dry hit by dripping on time was just a small bump in the road compared to craving heavily for a normal cigarette and being a dual user for months or more than a year as a result from that same heavy craving facing the risk of going to relapse. Those who swear by MTL to recommend to someone wanting to come off cigarettes before recommending a different style of vaping are not liars. They're just living seriously extremely maniacally hopelessly in the past.
Yeah, there is no better way to quit smoking than vaping tripple staggered claptons at 140 watts... but they really need to be hand made... if you buy them premade - you have to increase wattage to 200 watts but even with 200 watts anybody who is serious about quitting smoking have to use RDA because RTAs will not cut it even at 240 Watts... and all those people that claim that vaping MTL helped them quit are either liars or insane or... work for big tobacco...
One shoe doesn't fit all, yet, despite that, all of them used the same stuff you had, except only one. Had you told them there exist other ways than starter kits and cigalikes alone, exactly BECAUSE one shoe doesn't fit all, then likely at least some of them could have had an easier time quitting IMO.
Well I quit using MTL gear and so far it seems to be working out just fine.
I may be seriously extremely maniacally hopelessly living in the past....but that's fine with me.
I may be seriously extremely maniacally hopelessly living in the past....but that's fine with me.
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Me too!Well I quit using MTL gear and so far it seems to be working out just fine.
I may be seriously extremely maniacally hopelessly living in the past....but that's fine with me.
I never said you are stuck living in the past if you happen to like MTL. Instead I was talking about those who still think of it as being the optimal way to try to quit just because it worked for them, when the reality is there are tons of people out there struggling daily with dual use much more heavily than needed simply because they refused to look beyond MTL.Well I quit using MTL gear and so far it seems to be working out just fine.
I may be seriously extremely maniacally hopelessly living in the past....but that's fine with me.
Third. I did dual-use, for a whopping 4-1/2 days during which I never finished the pack I had opened the day my eGo-style starter kit arrived.Me too!
I gave up DL-type devices when I left college, many decades ago.
I'm curious: Did you DL your cigs too? I'm not sure how that's even possible, but I understand some people claim they smoked that way.
I suspect I'd already be dead if I had smoked that way though.
Just because vaping at 140 watts helped you to quit smoking does not make it the best way to quit for.... majority of people... even those that vastly prefer dtl...be it long time ago or at present day.
I do both DTL and MTL and now I am getting satisfying vape from both but vastly prefer loose MTL or restricted DL... anything over 30 watts make vaping for me very unsatisfying.
It looks you know only those that use exclusivelly RDAs (are you member of some kind cloud chasing club?) and for satisfying vape need over 80 watt... so more than half all forum members here who vape drop in coils atties and RTAs buy their tanks just to suffer... coz they like suffering...
Sorry but I am not getting what you are saying... when I quit smoking the biggest struggle for me was getting satisfying vape from my Smok V8 Baby Beast I won that battle by purchasing Nautilus2 and vaping at 18 watts instead 30...
If that is not possible in any way it is not possible in your way... I believe it is possible... with the right kind of vape... not necesarily the same you like... what works for you and all vaping people you know...
do not have to work the same for me and all vaping people I know.I did not vaped "in the past" and I started with DTL... just 8 months ago... if it not for MTL I would be still smoking cigarettes... see my signature... I am not dual user and I am enjoying vaping without need of RDA or 140 watts puffs... and I bet I am not in minority on this forum.
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