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Congrats on finding something that worked for you. What kind of hardware do you use?
I also get better results from snus, but that's not really a strike against WTA. I have been using snus for over three years so am well familiar with it. I know exactly how much I need, what flavors I like etc. I don't have to think about it.
WTA is a different product which would take a good period of adjustment to figure out all the angles. At this point I don't see the value of getting into it that much as I am happy with snus.
If WTA had been available when I started vaping that could very well have been a different story as I would have been willing to but in a good deal more evert into it. As for now it's more of a "if it's not broken don't fix it" situation. From what I have tried it is without a doubt a very different experience then nicotine only liquid. It does have a more relaxing effect. That's about as much as I can say about it.
You're a good example of what those of us who hang out in the smokeless section would call a happy bunny.
As the PV worked for you, so therefore it will work for everyone, and if it doesn't it must be because you have inferior equipment, or your nicotine strength isn't high enough, or you just need to stick with it and tough it out, etc, etc, etc, etc.
In the end the happy bunnies start sounding very much like the ANTZ. Nicotine gum works for some people so therefore it must work for everyone. How 'bout cold turkey or chantix. Millions of people have quit smoking so WHY CAN'T YOU.
The idea that nicotine only PV's will work for everyone, as you have clearly implied, was a silly idea when I first got involved with PV's years ago, and it's a silly idea today, even with better equipment.
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I have been called many things. But that is a first.
No, it worked for me and about 30 thousand of my friends. Which isn't really relevant in the fist place as I never actually said that.
Please link to where I said ANY of that.
This is borderline insulting. You must be really hooked on that stuff, to feel the need to attack me, simply because I said I see no point in handling it personally. I even clarified that I support your right to do it along with your right to smoke real ones. What's up with the aggression?
Less then 9% of people who try it, actually. http://whyquit.com/whyquit/a_realworldnrt.html
The stats on that are even worse.
I think I'd choose smoking over homicidal/suicidal episodes tyvm. (Are you on chantix now? LOL)
Putting words in other people's mouths is a weak debate tactic. It's also really odd because I am not trying to debate this with you. The question was "has it worked for you." I answered honestly. Why is that an issue for you?
You seem bent on arguing with me which is odd. Since I congratulated you and specifically said I don't have any objection to you adding extra chemicals to your vape.
If you insist on putting words in my mouth and trying to make me into some anti-smoking boogey man, you will only make yourself look bad. I am well known and respected on this forum. I have not been rude to or insulted you. Don't push me. I won't be polite forever.
A bit touchy their Mac. That has to be one of the more bizarre post I have seen. You need to mellow out a bit. You appear to be a prime candidate for a good dose of snus or WTA. It might chill you out a bit and you can come back and have a rational discussion.
Well... then I noticed you are a supplier...... and a respected one at that. That explains a good deal as you have an obvious agenda, and it certainly isn't helping those for whom nicotine only does not work.
You have made your point that you don't feel the need for WTA. Now just go away and let us folks for whom that is not holding true have our discussion.
You are clearly implying that the nicotine only approach is the only thing you support...... except for a bit of phony libertarion nonsense.
Well... then I noticed you are a supplier...... and a respected one at that. That explains a good deal as you have an obvious agenda, and it certainly isn't helping those for whom nicotine only does not work.
You have made your point that you don't feel the need for WTA. Now just go away and let us folks for whom that is not holding true have our discussion.
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There is a thread in the Aroma ejuice sub forum called http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/aroma-ejuice/307954-wta-snake-oil-not-3.html#post6517613, and I think some of this conversation should be moved there. This thread is for two kinds of vapers: those who have tried WTA and those who have tried WTA, period.
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Hey Stubby, I found myself engaged in a similar discussion with a new member a few months back. As it turned out, he was an unregistered supplier.
EDIT***Sorry about the peripherally charged swipe at Mac, it was uncalled for. This is an open forum, but if the thread was entitled How do you like your Darwin?, I would think non-Darwin users wouldn't have a major place in the argument. But, I am a bit sensitive toward WTA becasue it has meant the difference for me from vaping with caution to vaping as I please. Standard nic juice would increase my heartrate and WTA barely moves the needle. I do have the specifics, I have clocked it, but I will leave it out here...plus I just posted it in another thread. Carry on.
EDIT***Sorry about the peripherally charged swipe at Mac, it was uncalled for. This is an open forum, but if the thread was entitled How do you like your Darwin?, I would think non-Darwin users wouldn't have a major place in the argument. But, I am a bit sensitive toward WTA becasue it has meant the difference for me from vaping with caution to vaping as I please. Standard nic juice would increase my heartrate and WTA barely moves the needle. I do have the specifics, I have clocked it, but I will leave it out here...plus I just posted it in another thread. Carry on.
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More hostility, attacks and insults. Very petty. I won't feed into it. Answer these questions if you would like me to continue to respond:
But you can't. So who has an agenda? Go back and reread. I said "It's a great idea." Doesn't support these wild accusations you are making. I feel bad for you. It must suck to be THAT hostile to a stranger who has done nothing to you. But that's your cross to bear. So have fun.
16 out of 24 is two thirds. That's not bad. Especially if the baseline assumption is that this is all people who standard liquid hasn't worked for, as you are drawing from a more limited pool to begin with. Do we have any info about the extraction methods? What have your personal experiences with it been like? Would you reccommend it to people who haven't smoked in a long time?
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My thought on WTA has always been that it can help people who can't go it alone with regular liquids but if you are doing fine with regular liquids then you probably don't need it. I used WTA for the first time when Dvap made it and it wasn't available to the public. I knew then that it could be a useful tool to help people quit. Since it wasn't readily available, I turned to snus like Stubby. I think that people may have varying results with it but it can truly make the difference for some in their battle against smoking.
Unsolicited opinion here, but I never tried WTA juices because they represent what I spent a couple of years trying to completely quit. I dropped most of my cigs when I started vaping, but held on to some for about two years. I have a friend who quit smoking about 7 years ago using chewing tobacco and he's now still addicted to chewing tobacco and Snus. That's just anecdotal experience, I know.
It's been tempting to try, but I won't because of the likelihood of continued addiction to additional components of tobacco in a vaped form. If it satisfies the tobacco urge completely, it must be addicting, no?
Once I got away from most of my cigs and time passed, I dropped the rest without withdrawal pangs at all. I don't want to introduce anything that might bring back the addiction. Nicotine in vaped form is enough for me.
BTW, I found no fault in Mac's original statement. He was just expressing his reasons for staying away, as I did. I actually agree with him. For those who need it, it's probably a good thing. For those who have quit, time and vaping will quell the urges. Quittting tobacco is still not instant for many people who start vaping, even at the 24mg level.
It's been tempting to try, but I won't because of the likelihood of continued addiction to additional components of tobacco in a vaped form. If it satisfies the tobacco urge completely, it must be addicting, no?
Once I got away from most of my cigs and time passed, I dropped the rest without withdrawal pangs at all. I don't want to introduce anything that might bring back the addiction. Nicotine in vaped form is enough for me.
BTW, I found no fault in Mac's original statement. He was just expressing his reasons for staying away, as I did. I actually agree with him. For those who need it, it's probably a good thing. For those who have quit, time and vaping will quell the urges. Quittting tobacco is still not instant for many people who start vaping, even at the 24mg level.
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What is faulty here is your "logic" that WTA somehow represent cigarettes and additional chemicals put into it to make them "more addictive". You are both ignoring the fact that traditional nicquids all have minute quantities in them.
Do you consider vaping addictive?
I don't but even it if was, it is far less damaging to your body than smoking!
You guys talk about "addiction" as if it was harmful and life changing {in a bad way} when in fact that is not the case with using nicotine. No one is robbing drugstores to get some nicotine patches for Christs sake! I find it outrageous that some folks think the alleged addictive component of vaping is so awful the goal for everyone should be to quit vaping at some point and lowering your nic intake. I honestly don't know where some of you get these ideas from?
Again WTA does not add any chemicals.
C.B.
Do you consider vaping addictive?
I don't but even it if was, it is far less damaging to your body than smoking!
You guys talk about "addiction" as if it was harmful and life changing {in a bad way} when in fact that is not the case with using nicotine. No one is robbing drugstores to get some nicotine patches for Christs sake! I find it outrageous that some folks think the alleged addictive component of vaping is so awful the goal for everyone should be to quit vaping at some point and lowering your nic intake. I honestly don't know where some of you get these ideas from?
Again WTA does not add any chemicals.
C.B.
Ok, wait, what?
I don't get why all the anger? I thought it was ok for people to want and need different things, what am I missing?
I do, and I'm not bothered by it.
You won't find any argument there, and I don't think that's news to anyone. I'm still not getting why you're so annoyed.
Where was it said that that should be everyone's goal, though? I keep rereading this thread, and I'm not finding that anywhere. I can't figure out why you feel attacked just because others have different goals from your own.
I don't know why you're so angry that other people might not want to be addicted to anything anymore. Do you feel that they are somehow judging you by not choosing to use what you use?
I've recommended WTA to people who still felt anxious after trying to quit smoking using nic liquids alone, and several have told me that it helped them enormously, so I assume it adds something that helped them. Don't be afraid of the word "chemical". It isn't a bad word. Nicotine is a chemical. Water is a chemical.
I don't get why all the anger? I thought it was ok for people to want and need different things, what am I missing?
I do, and I'm not bothered by it.
You won't find any argument there, and I don't think that's news to anyone. I'm still not getting why you're so annoyed.
Where was it said that that should be everyone's goal, though? I keep rereading this thread, and I'm not finding that anywhere. I can't figure out why you feel attacked just because others have different goals from your own.
I don't know why you're so angry that other people might not want to be addicted to anything anymore. Do you feel that they are somehow judging you by not choosing to use what you use?
I've recommended WTA to people who still felt anxious after trying to quit smoking using nic liquids alone, and several have told me that it helped them enormously, so I assume it adds something that helped them. Don't be afraid of the word "chemical". It isn't a bad word. Nicotine is a chemical. Water is a chemical.
In order to understand what tobacco harm reduction is about you really have to look at this from a bit of a different angle. The goal of harm reduction is not to quit using all tobacco/nicotine (though that may be a personal goal). The goal is to quit using the most harmful form of tobacco (inhaling smoke several hundred times a day) by switching to products that are far less harmful. As for your friend who quit smoking with chew and Snus, you are implying that it's a bad thing he is still using tobacco after seven years. Far from it. After someone gets off the smokes, as far as his health goes, it's of little importance if your friend quits using all tobacco, switches to a nicotine only product, or continues his use of smokeless tobacco for the rest of his life. Wether he quits using all forms of tobacco/nicotine is strictly a personal choice. There is no superior, or inferior approach. Its simple a personal choice as to what a person uses.
If you don't understand what I said above then you really don't understand the fundamental goals of tobacco harm reduction.
As for your own personal history, well.... that's your story, but it is of little value to the discussion. What has to be understood is that there are people who do struggle with the nicotine only approach and find it a hugh challenge, or impossible to quit smoking with standard liquid. Those are the people for whom WTA is showing itself to be of great value. Addiction isn't the main concern, it's smoking. Once a person gets off the smokes buy using any number of reduced harm tobacco/nicotine products, the idea of addiction is very much a secondary issue. If a person choices to use "less addictive products", or quits using all tobacco/nicotine products after quitting smoking, it is a personal choice and nothing more.
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After three years of smoking and vaping, I used the WTA for a couple of months. I quit analogs and no longer feel the need for the WTA. I intend to order more juice from Aromae without WTA just because the flavors are so good.
Stubby, I'm not encouraging or discouraging anyone from using WTA, just posting my thoughts on it from my standpoint. If people are having trouble getting off cigarettes by vaping, then it's a good choice. It's a more complete derivative of tobacco components just by it's method of extraction. If people aren't having trouble staying off cigs through vaping, it might just be better for them to stay away. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
I've followed WTA threads since their inception and listened intently as ECF members explained how to soak tobacco in water and use other methods to distill down a whole tobacco additive for juice. Many found it to be helpful in staying off cigarettes.
I also advise non-smoking people who ask about vaping not to start it if they aren't already hooked on cigarettes. My advice for people who vape, but find themselves unsatisfied and craving cigarettes is to try it and see if it helps. For me, I can sit next to my wife at the table while she smokes and not even think about smoking one (doing that right now). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
Bottom line ... try it if you need it, don't if you have controlled your cigarette cravings through vaping alone. WTA is certainly better than going back to a pack of coffin nails.
That said, I'll back out of this topic and let you guys go back to discussing the original topic theme.
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I appreciate and respect your views DaveP, through my views would differ somewhat from yours.
First off the soaks appear to be of little value. I admit I didn't keep up with all of it but my understanding is that it is mostly a flavor thing and has little to do with any of the alkaloids, ether nicotine alkaloid or the minor alkaloids. Certainly not something I would want to try or recommend.
I have fairly liberal views on tobacco. I just don't care what people use. The only thing that interest me is that people have good solid truthful information on the relative harm of different tobacco products. After that its none of my concern what someone uses. I was critical of your views on your friend who quit smoking using chew and snus because there is nothing wrong with what he is dong. He found something that works for him that is significantly less harmful then smoking. You appeared to be trying to make a claim that vaping is less harmful then what he is doing, but in that you would be mistaken as the science doesn't back you up. The only thing it shows is how successful decades of bad information by the ANTZ on smokeless tobacco has misinformed the public.
As far as recommendations for people trying to quit smoking, I recommend trying everything. That includes snus, dissolvables, nasal snuff, e-cigs, and yes, even american style snuff as in copenhagen, grizzly, etc. The more options there are, and the more options a person opens himself up to, the better chance they will have of quitting cigarettes, and staying off cigarettes. It's foolish to get hung up on an e-cig only approach, or any one product. That's just being a fan-boy/girl. From a health prospective there is no reason to do so. People are different and what works for one person may not work for another.
Try them all and see what works best for you.
First off the soaks appear to be of little value. I admit I didn't keep up with all of it but my understanding is that it is mostly a flavor thing and has little to do with any of the alkaloids, ether nicotine alkaloid or the minor alkaloids. Certainly not something I would want to try or recommend.
I have fairly liberal views on tobacco. I just don't care what people use. The only thing that interest me is that people have good solid truthful information on the relative harm of different tobacco products. After that its none of my concern what someone uses. I was critical of your views on your friend who quit smoking using chew and snus because there is nothing wrong with what he is dong. He found something that works for him that is significantly less harmful then smoking. You appeared to be trying to make a claim that vaping is less harmful then what he is doing, but in that you would be mistaken as the science doesn't back you up. The only thing it shows is how successful decades of bad information by the ANTZ on smokeless tobacco has misinformed the public.
As far as recommendations for people trying to quit smoking, I recommend trying everything. That includes snus, dissolvables, nasal snuff, e-cigs, and yes, even american style snuff as in copenhagen, grizzly, etc. The more options there are, and the more options a person opens himself up to, the better chance they will have of quitting cigarettes, and staying off cigarettes. It's foolish to get hung up on an e-cig only approach, or any one product. That's just being a fan-boy/girl. From a health prospective there is no reason to do so. People are different and what works for one person may not work for another.
Try them all and see what works best for you.
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Vaping is addictive, otherwise we'd all have thrown out our PV's after about three weeks and moved on as non-nicotine users.
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