Health warning from Murray Laugesen

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OutWest

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The media will have a field day with it the first time a child gets poisoned by eliquid. But, there should be a degree of parental responsibility here. The report in the OP is a bit over the top, imho. Sure, childproof containers of some sort should be included with all bottles of eliquid, which many sellers do provide. But imho the rest of the onus should be on the parents and ecig owners. And getting a drop of eliquid on the lips when inhaling isnt something to panic over, especially when you consider that even at 36mg strength that's 36mg per ml and there's 20 drops per ml, which means that one whole drop of 36mg strength liquid only has 1.8 mg of nicotine. In that same regard you'd have to spill a whole heck of a lot of eliquid on you and leave it on long enough for it to absorb into you in order to be a real issue (especially when you factor in the fact that where spilled will make a difference due to varying thickness of skin on the body).
 
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e-pipeman

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The media will have a field day with it the first time a child gets poisoned by eliquid. But, there should be a degree of parental responsibility here. The report in the OP is a bit over the top, imho. Sure, childproof containers of some sort should be included with all bottles of eliquid, which many sellers do provide. But imho the rest of the onus should be on the parents and ecig owners.

This is quite right imho. If I left a loaded pistol on a coffee table and a child shot her/himself with it, should we prosecute Smith & Wesson? No.
 

LaceyUnderall

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kind of on topic... I was looking for other interesting things in the home that could lead to injury or death... statistics... and I found this book: Household accident statistics - UK home safety advice

What really caught my eye was that 400,000 people per year suffer from serious injury while laying/relaxing in bed!

The fact is that we can die just sitting in our chair from an aneurysm. We can have the healthiest of children, go into their room one morning, and they are gone from the world due to SIDS. The fact is is that life brings death and all we can do is be responsible people, watch our children responsibly and hope they, and ourselves make it through life with as few bumps and bruises as possible.

Warnings are good. However, warnings are that. Just warnings. An adult who leaves a bottle of eLiquid laying around, is no worse than a parent who leaves a lighter on the table for the kids to burn the house down with.

begin sarcasm/ Our society doesn't need warnings anymore... we just need bans. Bans to remove everything that makes our lives better and easier. The Amish have it right. Oh no wait. A horse died just recently when a 15 year old driving a horse and buggy was hit by a motorist (the child went unharmed but it could have been worse) Car-buggy accident kills horse - The Morning Sun News: Serving Clare, Gratiot and Isabella counties Save the children!!! Edit... this one is even worse! http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/10571

/sarcasm
 
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e-pipeman

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kind of on topic... I was looking for other interesting things in the home that could lead to injury or death... statistics... and I found this book: Household accident statistics - UK home safety advice

What really caught my eye was that 400,000 people per year suffer from serious injury while laying/relaxing in bed!

The fact is that we can die just sitting in our chair from an aneurysm. We can have the healthiest of children, go into their room one morning, and they are gone from the world due to SIDS. The fact is is that life brings death and all we can do is be responsible people, watch our children responsibly and hope they, and ourselves make it through life with as few bumps and bruises as possible.

Warnings are good. However, warnings are that. Just warnings. An adult who leaves a bottle of eLiquid laying around, is no worse than a parent who leaves a lighter on the table for the kids to burn the house down with.

begin sarcasm/ Our society doesn't need warnings anymore... we just need bans. Bans to remove everything that makes our lives better and easier. The Amish have it right. Oh no wait. A horse died just recently when a 15 year old driving a horse and buggy was hit by a motorist (the child went unharmed but it could have been worse) Car-buggy accident kills horse - The Morning Sun News: Serving Clare, Gratiot and Isabella counties Save the children!!! Edit... this one is even worse! Update: Horse and Buggy Accident: Multiple Injuries - Southern Maryland News, Charles County, Calvert County and St. Mary's County News

/sarcasm

Wise words, Lacey. Love the sarcasm/irony :thumbs:
 

greyeyes

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I would like the option of a child-proof cap or not, just as my pharmacy gives me that option for prescription drugs. There are a lot of adults that cannot physically open a child-proof cap.

IMO it all comes down to supervision and common sense around children, period, no matter what. Whether it's e-liquid, swimming pools, chemicals, or even pets it's been the same issue throughout time - children need to be supervised at all times.
 

eric

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I would like the option of a child-proof cap or not, just as my pharmacy gives me that option for prescription drugs. There are a lot of adults that cannot physically open a child-proof cap.

IMO it all comes down to supervision and common sense around children, period, no matter what. Whether it's e-liquid, swimming pools, chemicals, or even pets it's been the same issue throughout time - children need to be supervised at all times.

Precisely, which is why we only offer child-proof bottles. If someone wants a non-childproof bottle, they have to request it specifically. In fact, we don't even mention anywhere on our website that there is the option to request non-childproof bottles, and we've only ever had 2 people make such a request.
 

kinabaloo

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Safety caps - sure.

No sale of e-juice in bottles - no way! This is exactly what BT and BP want - to control the juice and extract the maximum profits from monopoly sale of tiny portions in a proprietary format.

A house has electric wires and sockets, power tools, knives, guns, glass, drugs, cookers, boiling kettles, swimming pools, ... and outside are cars and skateboards, and ... you get the point.

Present carts don't really work (and present a choking hazard anyway).

A simple dripper bottle would go a long way to achieve extra safety from both spills and accidental drinking. A small plastic insert has a small outlet hole/tube so that only one drop will fall out after the bottle is upturned. This and child-proof caps would cost just pennies/cents.
 

Kewtsquirrel

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E-liquid is probably the least dangerous thing on my desk right now, and I think this report is way off. We already know that absorption levels are far lower than that of cigarettes, and we know that PG slows the absorption substantially - I coat my fingers in E-liquid and it has absolutely zero effect. This has a lot more to do with a scientist in someones pocket trying to crank up profit margins than safety.
 

nibb

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Letter to manufacturers/ distributors of e-cigarettes in the USA

Please see the health warning "Precautions with e-cigarettes" on my website.
[SIZE=+0]www.healthnz.co.nz/ecigarette.htm


3 June 2009 Health warning: precautions required with e-cigarettes
Avoid bottled nicotine. Liquid nicotine (e-liquid) is commonly sold in small bottles of up to 30 mL or more, on the internet, or from stores in the USA, often meant to last consumers one month; often unlabelled as to nicotine dose. Health New Zealand Ltd does not recommend sale or use of e-liquid permitting a lethal dose of nicotine to be swallowed.* Nicotine solution sold in child-proofed cartridges avoids this risk. Lethal dose for a child is 10mg nicotine. Many bottles on sale contain many times this amount. Even if the cap of a liquid nicotine bottle is child proofed, the risk remains if someone else leaves it open.
For adults, absorption of a fatal dose of 40-60 mg of nicotine could rapidly occur due to spilling the liquid on one’s skin while using liquid nicotine to (cheaply) fill an e-cigarette – a risk heightened by inattention (distraction, fatigue, alcohol, drugs). (Wash it off immediately). Gloves should always be worn.
Avoid gravity feed. E-cigarettes should not be tipped up above mouth level, as the e-cigarette liquid can ooze out and drain nicotine on to the lips.
Avoid child-openable brands of e-cigarette and refill cartridges. Some brands of e-cigarette and of refill cartridges can be pulled apart or opened by young children, giving access to the nicotine solution in which the refill wick is soaked. These brands are a potential hazard.*
*The solvents and flavours of the liquid in the wick can mask the bitter taste of nicotine, so when a child tastes it, the liquid is not immediately spat out, but absorbed from the mouth, with risk of nicotine overdose.
Dr Murray Laugesen, e-cigarette researcher, Health New Zealand Ltd. 3 June 2009


[SIZE=+0]

[SIZE=+0]In the past year I have concluded that cigarette smoke toxicants are unlikely to be produced at the low vapourising temperature produced by most e-cigarettes. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]However I remain concerned with a number of e-cigarette brands with respect to child safety, and this has been voiced to me by others researching e-cigarettes. I am willing to correct any errors of fact in the warning.[/SIZE]

From a public health point of view, e-cigarettes can save lives of smokers, but society won't permit the immediate deaths of even one child from nicotine poisoning arising from their sale.
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
From a business point of view however, now that e-cigarette sales are receiving public attention, it will only take one case of nicotine poisoning in a child from e-liquid, refills or loaded e-cigarette or to ensure an immediate ban on e-cigarettes in the USA and in many other countries. Bringing a total e-cigarette ban into effect in the USA, would also result in a public health setback, with thousands of e-smokers reverting to tobacco smoking.

This warning is thus designed

1) to protect children and e-smokers from nicotine poisoning,
2) to suggest ways in which e-products could in future be re-designed at source to design out the hazards.
3) to suggest a middle way for regulatory bodies to regulate e-cigarettes.
4) to set a standard for child safety for manufacture and sale of e-cigarettes, cartridge refills, and e-liquid.
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
Murray Laugesen
public health physician



[SIZE=+0]Health New Zealand Ltd. ph +64 (3) 3288 688 Cell (0274) 884 375 Skype: murraylaugesen
hnz@healthnz.co.nz www.healthnz.co.nz 36 Winchester St Lyttelton Christchurch 8082, New Zealand.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]copy Bill Godshall, CEO Smokefree Pennsylvania
[/SIZE]


Im sorry but that is just plain stupid.
Its more dangerous to leave your Zippo on the table on which a kid can burn the whole house down or even burn himself to death.

All this warnings are just like if real cigarrettes are the safest thing on earth. I have read several stories of people being drunk and leaving their cigarettes on and burning themself down on bed while they felt asleep. I also have heard stories of children playing with fire.

E-Liquid is not more dangerous then boiling hot water on the kitchen. There are millions of things on a household which are more dangerous and even more toxic. Of course you have to leave E-Liquid out of the hands of children but you also leave pills out of the hands of childrens. A bug killing spray can is probably more toxic and dangerous as well.

I tasted nicotine on the my mouth several times while puffing yersterday and besides the taste I did not go overdosed with it.

Im not sure how toxic it would be if I spill a bottle of nicotine over my hand but im sure there is a reason why they are small on the first place.

What I mean is I found it ridicolous how people are concerned whith this things while they leave real guns under their beds for children to play with them. There are worst things available for children we should take care first.

Its probably more dangerous a kid that runs outside and is hit by a car on the street then killing himself taking e-juice.

I dont get this warnings. Just a week ago an Air France plane crashed. They sure dont put a Warning on the Ticket when its sold "Be aware, the plane can crash under heavy storms"

They also dont put a warning on pump stations "Remember, your killing us all with each mile you drive"

Why they dont start making wine bottles against childrens. There are more kids that die because of alcohol each year. Thats a fact.

Its just like this non sense of the flue. How many people died? 80? Of 6,783,421,727 human beings that live on earth. But guess what the health organizations is "SUGGESTING" all states to buy anti flue medicines. Wow what a nice pharma business this is going to be. Millons of anti flue medicines sold for a desease that killed less then cough kills each year worldwide.
 
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Kitabz

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Lethal dose for a child is 10mg nicotine. Many bottles on sale contain many times this amount.

Three pieces of Nicorette gum would contain 12mg and five Nicorette microtabs (very small) would also contain 10mg. I don't recall either of these two products coming in child proof packaging AT ALL. Trying to ban liquid in bottles with child proof caps is just silly.

Sadly the more we over-protect like this, the higher everyone's expectations become to the extent that they don't check things [generally] because they assume that they'll be child-safe.

Irresponsible adults will always exist unfortunately and whilst very young children are more difficult to control/educate, teaching children what they can and cannot touch is far more worthwhile than packaging.
 

TropicalBob

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Let me make a few things clear: I don't like the reality. I only have to deal with it. The reality is that e-liquid must stand on its own, not compared to bleach or pool chemicals or spider spray. E-liquid, by itself, must be made safe.

It is unique in that it tastes and smells good. It has to. We're going to inhale it and want a pleasant taste in the process. That makes it far more attractive than any other dangerous product cited here.

If you have a syringe to refill carts, you'll see 1ml increments on it. Now, if you are using 36mg or 24mg liquid, half a single ml will kill a child. That's the amount you could put in half a thimble. That's a sip from an "afternoon tea" cup.

And what if your vial falls to the floor? It is childproof, in case inquisitive little hands find it? It smells good, feels nice, kind of like ... sunscreen or baby oil. Let's rub it all over!

I drip my e-cig. I refill my cartridges. I hold my penstyle battery-end up much of the time. I will hate restrictions on how I can use my devices. But I do see the danger. And I don't buy that authorities can leave such an important safety issue to parents (some of whom should be stripped of the title).

I think the warning is a bit extreme, and I think it serves Ruyan well, since that is the one company farthest along with a disposable on the market, and a company with a financial interest in carts, not liquid.

After watching the Senate hearings, however, do not dismiss anyone who shouts "this is for the children." Anything to "save the children" will have unanimous support in today's climate. We must remove that weapon from the opposition's arsenal. Make sure everything is childproofed -- and good for the supplier who makes it standard.
 

prr2freya

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I don't have children about... but I do have a cat that has a weird penchant for chewing on paper towels... So i make sure any paper towels I use to blow out my atties or wipe any spilled nic are disposed of out of reach of my dear sweet beautiful kitty.


My kitty Bryce:
4331_87647007900_543382900_1939217_8100508_n.jpg
 
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e-pipeman

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Wow - your cat looks just like my cat Harris (in his youth a great rabbiter - sadly for him he now lives in a city).

He's 15 yrs old (real years).

Responsibility? Well, I suppose that you either have it or you don't. There's a big debate going on in England at present about whether our politicians do or not. Hmmm. We'll see.

Poisons are poisons. If you let kids have 'em they won't be well.

Tobacco doesn't kill people. People do that.
 

eric

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Let me make a few things clear: I don't like the reality. I only have to deal with it. The reality is that e-liquid must stand on its own, not compared to bleach or pool chemicals or spider spray. E-liquid, by itself, must be made safe.

It is unique in that it tastes and smells good. It has to. We're going to inhale it and want a pleasant taste in the process. That makes it far more attractive than any other dangerous product cited here.

Declaring we must sell our liquid in childproof bottles is fair and I imagine would be accepted by most, if not all, rational advocates for electronic cigarettes. Banning the sell of liquid period, however, should be taken off the table completely.

I still don't think the comparison to other Household poisons is well rebutted here, but I respect your position of compliance. Nicotine gum tastes great. Something I've noticed, it burns a lot less than e-liquid does, and it already has a good burn to it. Toothpaste certainly tastes better than e-liquid as well.

Perhaps a twist to lock cartridge is in order.

I understand the laws and the loopholes, but I do not condone them, and neither should any other logical American citizen.

I, personally, am not willing to sacrifice my freedom and happiness and the success of my business to appease the ignorance of others. It is absolutely un-Constitutional.

With that said, it seems you're really just considering and stating a worst case scenario more so than a personal stance. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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techtravis

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I tend to agree with tropical bob here.

What sets E-liquid part from other poisons in the house is that.
1. The liquid is used in a perceivable 'fun' fashion to young kids. My youngest daughter laughs when she sees the vapor. So i have learned not to use it AT ALL around her.

2. The liquid is handled but us very frequently. Leaving the chance that it may drop out of a pocket, be left on a desk / table, ect well within the child's reach.

Not many other substances are handled this way. At least not any with as fatal consequences as the our liquid nicotine. (we'll leave illegal drugs out of the equation here)

Chalk it up to bad parenting if a kid gets a hold of it, or the parent not being attentive enough. But trust me. You can't control the outcome of things ALL the time. But you can provide as many roadblocks as possible to slow down the actions it would take for someone to end up extremely sick or dead.

Proper warnings? Yes
Consumer EDU? Yes
Child proof caps? Yes
Limit bottle size? Sure
Limit Nic level? ... ok (36mg is dwindling already) but to what level?

These companies are coming quite a ways in improving their products. Why? Because demand and competition is group. If one company doesn't do it, another one will.
 

eric

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I tend to agree with tropical bob here.

What sets E-liquid part from other poisons in the house is that.
1. The liquid is used in a perceivable 'fun' fashion to young kids. My youngest daughter laughs when she sees the vapor. So i have learned not to use it AT ALL around her.

2. The liquid is handled but us very frequently. Leaving the chance that it may drop out of a pocket, be left on a desk / table, ect well within the child's reach.

Not many other substances are handled this way. At least not any with as fatal consequences as the our liquid nicotine. (we'll leave illegal drugs out of the equation here)

Chalk it up to bad parenting if a kid gets a hold of it, or the parent not being attentive enough. But trust me. You can't control the outcome of things ALL the time. But you can provide as many roadblocks as possible to slow down the actions it would take for someone to end up extremely sick or dead.

Proper warnings? Yes
Consumer EDU? Yes
Child proof caps? Yes
Limit bottle size? Sure
Limit Nic level? ... ok (36mg is dwindling already) but to what level?

These companies are coming quite a ways in improving their products. Why? Because demand and competition is group. If one company doesn't do it, another one will.

I made sure the bottles I supplied to my customers were of a very thick glass, child-proofed and leak-proof. They also come with a warning label that lists the obvious safety measures, then links to the safety page of our website covering any other safety precautions not mentioned on the bottle.

Later tonight I'll test the bottles' durability out by dropping them from various heights while filled and while empty, record it all, and post a Youtube video.
 

RandallFlagg

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understood, but we all need to understand a child could drink clorox bleach or any other poisonious household liquid.
Just use common sense, that's all.

Remember. This is Washington we're talking about.
There's no such thing as common sense. We're all a bunch of ...... who need to be looked after so we don't hurt ourselves or others.
 
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