Taking my last waffle to go, along with the shot of vodka. Looks like this thread could end badly. Good luck.
Help passing Nic Test!!!
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However your agenda is Not to help others quit smoking. No, its so you can walk around anywhere you want vaping because you feel entitled, it's very immature. Of course you probably won't admit that but you know that's what it's really about. Your not fooling anyone. If people were more respectful with the whole vaping thing from the beginning this wouldn't even have to be discussed. Instead people wanted some even demanded they be allowed to vape anywhere they like and that's the problem in a nutshell.
Stop telling members to grow up. That's on the verge of a personal attack, which is not permitted here.
As to your stance on the FDA's proposed regulations, you really need to read them before you can debate them. In the FDA Regulations forum, there are several threads about them, many by non-smokers and non-vapers, specialists who want to ensure the status quo as much as many of us. The bottom line is, if the proposals go forth into policy, >99% of ecigs and components will be de facto banned.... it will be cigalikes only (Njoy, blu, etc.) because there is a precedent date set in 2007.
I was just about to comment on this. Instead of actually debating what has been proposed, this person calls us paranoid and tells us to grow up.
I didn't attack anyone on any level whatsoever not even close by any means. I'm very familiar with what's been going on but I'm not paranoid or spreading gossip to scare others.
Some here are more interestedin arguing then discussing actual facts. My entire point is nothing has been decided. I think that was clear. Instead of discussing the real issues some decided to pile on with their theories not fact.
Some here are more interestedin arguing then discussing actual facts. My entire point is nothing has been decided. I think that was clear. Instead of discussing the real issues some decided to pile on with their theories not fact.
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Yes, some are, no doubt about it. But if you educate yourself on the "actual facts" as discussed by the learned, professional, non-paranoid people (including the director of Smoke-Free Pennsylvania that has been around since the 80's), you'll see there is a lot of truth behind some of what has been said here (as opposed to "gossip" and "fear-mongering").
But, having said that, you are of course welcome to your own opinion, as long as it doesn't cross the line in a post.
Have a nice day.
Tell you what I'm talking about. Instead of being scared I'm going to be going to my local shops buying liquids and moving on with my life as usual. I will watch as new shops open, stores such as Walgreens, Walmart, 7 11, and many others are now stocking shelves with bottled e liquid and PVs. I won't live in fear. Tobacco isn't banned, booze isn't banned, and most likely we will be able to buy e liquid with some FDA oversight to insure we get what were paying for.
I thought you were all about discussing facts not theories. You make no sense.
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Exactly, nothing of significance will happen. Maybe safety caps, ingredients lists and the way e-nic is advertised, but not much else. A proposal is just a proposal. At the end of the day, I really don't thing the oh so scary regulations will change much...
You obviously haven't read the proposed regulations.
They have little to do with where you can/can't vape.
They have everything to do with controlling the supply of vape equipment.
The proposed testing will put most liquid suppliers out of business because they can't afford hundreds of thousands of dollars for approval of every liquid they sell. If a flavoring change is needed (supplier drops/changes the ingredient) new approval for everything that uses it.
Only the largest companies will be able to afford approval, and then only for a few flavors (of the ones the FDA decides to allow).
The big winners in this? Big Tobacco, as they can afford the approval for the 3-4 flavors they decide to market.
And the pharmaceutical companies as their ineffective NRT products and cessation drugs remain marketable.
Oh, and of course the government. They need to keep the tobacco tax and MSA money coming in or find a replacement.
Odd how Big Tobacco has so much power and influence... Too bad they haven't used that influence over the past 15 years as smoking laws, taxes and regulations have hurt them far more than electronic cigarettes...
I wish I had your confidence. But I say what they did to RYP tobacco (2000% increase in the taxes) and the industry that sprung up around it. For decades loose cigarette tobacco was taxed similar pipe tobacco and cigars. Then over night there raise the tax to be more than the tobacco.
I was there. I was buying a point for $17, including the $1.10/lb tax. The next day the taxes alone were $25 a pound.
Supposedly that was to achieve parity with mass market cigarettes ($1.95 a pack)
Now, imagine they tax liquids like that. Using myself as an example, I use ~ 3mL a day and smoked a pack a day (before I started rolling). So $1.95 tax for every 3mL. That nearly $20 in taxes on a $30mL bottle (That I currently get for $12).
So that would once again be a 200% price increase (and this stuff already costs me 3x what tobacco did)
No it hasn't. Their profits have continued to climb despite the regulations, taxes, and lawsuits. And the government was sure to not push hard enough to cause a major change in revenue (Imagine if they has done went from $1 to $10 a pack instead of $2. That would have had a much bigger impact on smoking)
The last thing that started to make a dent in their profits was RYO/MYO. The along comes S-CHIP and nearly kills that.
Now, here comes vaping. Finally making a dent (thanks to the multitude of flavors), with even greater potential than anything before.
Worldwide profits have risen- mostly in underdeveloped countries. You don't think tobacco companies would love regulations to go back to the day when smoking was allowed virtually everywhere?
Not as many people use electronic cigarettes as people on this forum think. I see lots of people smoking everyday, yet have never seen a vaper in the US...
Not as many people use electronic cigarettes as people on this forum think. I see lots of people smoking everyday, yet have never seen a vaper in the US...
I'm sure they would (so would I*), but given the alternatives? They are happy to work with the governemnt to maintain the status quo.
Like I said, a $10 tax instead of a $2 tax would have had a much bigger impact on smoker numbers.
But they didn't go there, they went smaller so as not to cut off the revenue.
If you double the taxes and loose 25% of the smokers, you still get more tax revenue.
(not that I think that increase caused that many to quit)
Not yet they don't, just as there weren't that many in RYO/MYO either. But it was enough that they got noticed.
I've run into a few. Know a few at work too.
One difference is that (at least here) it's not banned inside like smoking. So they stay inside to vape and you don't see them outside with the smokers. At least 4 people at work that I got to know in the "smoking area" vape full time now. They no longer leave their desk to vape, so I don't see them anymore. I still go down every few hours, just to get away for the desk, but I don't see as many smokers I did a few years ago. Are many of them vaping at their desk instead?
Was at a Christmas party last year and at least one other vaper was there using a cig-a-like (friend of the host from a different activity)
Saw many in Afghanistan this past winter. I saw none back in 2012.
I'm sure it's more common in other areas compared to where I am, places with much higher tobacco taxes and more stigma of smokers.
1%? 0.5%? dunno. I do know that the number of vape related shops and web sites implies 100s of thousands. 1 million vapers would be less than 0.5% of the population and I don't know that we are there yet.
Last I see says 42 million smokers (18% of adults). That's a big group to compare to.
Until we hit 10 million (~5% of the adult population) I think it will still be unusual to see often.
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Some regulations may past most probably will not. However I don't think these are meant to punish vapers as some may think. It's about safety of a product that people are ingesting. There's a reason a lot of people don't want to use imported liquids. Alot of us understand that many liquid suppliers don't care what they add and defiantley don't care about what's healthy or not for you. They care about profits. This is the reason for the standing ban of ecigs from China, its a safety issuse.
Lets not pretend vendors arent making giant profits on liquids because they are. Instead of trusting their sponsered independent testing that's paid for by the vendor I wouldnt mind seeing that the products they sell are tested by the FDA to insure they contain what were being told it does. This should be common sense.
St. Dog, thanks for speaking up in a proper manner and not being argumentive.
Lets not pretend vendors arent making giant profits on liquids because they are. Instead of trusting their sponsered independent testing that's paid for by the vendor I wouldnt mind seeing that the products they sell are tested by the FDA to insure they contain what were being told it does. This should be common sense.
St. Dog, thanks for speaking up in a proper manner and not being argumentive.
Sub,
If you took the time to read the proposed FDA regs, you would should have seen phrases like "some people believe e-cigarettes are safer than smoking", contextually implying that this is an unfounded and mistaken belief. If you share this belief, let is know so we can give up on this discussion.
If you read Carl Phillips' response on behalf of the CASAA, you will plainly see that that the regulations were very poorly written, very poorly researched (and use citations so badly it would be a failure as a research paper), and very clearly biased against e-cigarette use.
If you had followed the issue, you would know that if the FDA wants to pass these regulations, there is nothing stopping them. If Congress decides to stop the regulations, they will need to propose and pass a bill themselves (fat chance). You would also know that the FDA receives approximately 40% of it's funding by approval fees for food and drugs: the pharmaceutical industry keeps the FDA alive, and their profits are being cut into by smoking cessation via vaporizing.
If you've paid attention the the CDC, they've also released some very very inept "analysis" on how e-cigarettes are being taken up by children. Can you guess why?
The point is, they've shown their intentions. These groups have negligible interest in public health, and no business regulating what they are very clearly biased against. This is not idle speculation, and will affect the future of vaping in the USA. I never thought about the FDA before this debacle, and now I will never think any good thoughts about them. If I may, "just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after us".
I do apologize for the further derailment of the thread, but the FDA is in no sense our friend, and I do believe all vapers should be aware of this fact.
If you took the time to read the proposed FDA regs, you would should have seen phrases like "some people believe e-cigarettes are safer than smoking", contextually implying that this is an unfounded and mistaken belief. If you share this belief, let is know so we can give up on this discussion.
If you read Carl Phillips' response on behalf of the CASAA, you will plainly see that that the regulations were very poorly written, very poorly researched (and use citations so badly it would be a failure as a research paper), and very clearly biased against e-cigarette use.
If you had followed the issue, you would know that if the FDA wants to pass these regulations, there is nothing stopping them. If Congress decides to stop the regulations, they will need to propose and pass a bill themselves (fat chance). You would also know that the FDA receives approximately 40% of it's funding by approval fees for food and drugs: the pharmaceutical industry keeps the FDA alive, and their profits are being cut into by smoking cessation via vaporizing.
If you've paid attention the the CDC, they've also released some very very inept "analysis" on how e-cigarettes are being taken up by children. Can you guess why?
The point is, they've shown their intentions. These groups have negligible interest in public health, and no business regulating what they are very clearly biased against. This is not idle speculation, and will affect the future of vaping in the USA. I never thought about the FDA before this debacle, and now I will never think any good thoughts about them. If I may, "just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after us".
I do apologize for the further derailment of the thread, but the FDA is in no sense our friend, and I do believe all vapers should be aware of this fact.
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