Help with Jamaican Rum - %?

[Chrysostom83]

Hello,
I'm trying to create a rum tobacco recipe using a few ingredients and I'm having real problems working with the rum ingredient. I've tried both TFA Jamaican Rum and Flavour Art Jamaican Rhum and even mixing them. The rum flavour seems really "volatile" or ephemeral and seems to fade significantly quite quickly. I've tried with 1% ACV and it didn't work either. I've also added molasses to try to enhance that part of the rum. I've tried several variations but none seem to be right.

Where I'm at right now with the recipe is:


60/40 PG/VG-mix.

TFA black honey tobacco 3%
FA dark vapure 3%
TFA jamaican rum 10%
FA jamaica rhum 4%
TFA Molasses 3%
MTS VW 1%
EM 1%

Do any of you have any insight on what could be the problem, or know of a good starting % for mixing jamiacan rum with other flavours (either TFA or FA-versions).

Thank you,
Chrysostom

 

[we2rcool]

Our best guess is extremely overflavoring + additives that 'soften' and kill flavor. Too much flavor typically kills/decreases flavor.

Your flavor choices seem like they'd create an excellent vape!

Try something like this:

Black Honey tobacco 3-5%
Dark Vapure 1.5%
FA Rum 2%
No additives

We'd mix one with around 2% Molasses and one without.

The Black Honey Tobacco really needs about 5 weeks of steep time to fully develop. You might want to go with a less complex tobacco, like FAs Virginia (at around 1-2%).

Don't give up on this one - it's sure to be a winner!

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Dark Vapure is normally recommended at 1-2% as it's pretty concentrated, so I'd definitely drop it down to 1.5% as recommended by we2rcool. As for the Jamaican Rum, I'd use one or the other to start. Perhaps vape each rum independently to figure out which one you like the most and use that one in your mix. Since they come from two companies, using two different blends to create the flavor, they may not mesh well together, thus giving you a taste you may not take to.

As for MTS VW and EM, stick with one or the other. Both are used to soften flavors and using too much can kill flavor altogether. I prefer MTS VW over EM as EM, over time, really doesn't seem to add much to a mix. MTS VW was designed originally for use with tobacco flavors, IIRC, and since you're creating a tobacco blend, it would be the better option. They're both designed to alter the perception of flavor and vape, and neither are absolutely required, but MTS VW does tend to add a little something to a tobacco vape when used in small amounts.


As far as recipes go, here's a few to try. I'd start by mixing 5ml sample bottles (even if you only have 10ml/30ml/50ml bottles, just mix up 5ml at a time so as not to waste too much).

3% - TFA - Black Honey Tobacco
1% - FA - Dark Vapure
3% - FA - Jamaican Rum (or 7% TFA - Jamaican Rum)
1% - FA - MTS VW

- OR -

3% - TFA - Black Honey Tobacco
1% - FA - Dark Vapure
3% - FA - Jamaican Rum (or 7% TFA - Jamaican Rum)
1% - TFA - Molasses
1% - FA - MTS VW


For me, Dark Vapure is strong stuff. It comes off very grass-like (from what I've been told, it's the Perique?), and in the mixes I've tried, it can easily overpower and dominate, hence the lower percentages. I'm a fan of FA's Jamaican Rum over TFA's, but that's personal preference.


If neither of the three recipes work out for you (mine and we2rcool's), perhaps let us know more about what stage you're trying to get to. Describe the flavor profile you're looking for and maybe we can better help you out / recommend other flavors that may work well.

 

[Chrysostom83]

Thank you, both of you for the insight. I'll try lowering the percentages as you suggested - I've done so before, in a previous mix but I honestly didn't think it tasted that much - however, back then I was adding ACV and suspected it muted the flavours. I'm aware of the long steep time for BHT. Right now I steep my juices using an ultrasonic cleaner for about 2.5 hours and then let them sit for 24 hours.

I hope it's a case of over-flavouring, I've been mulling over that thought myself. I'll mix something up tomorrow and report back. Hopefully that batch will taste more.

Btw, do you know any other way to make flavours pop a little, like adding 1% brown sugar or something? Especially rum-based flavours (that's why I thought of using molasses).

Once again, thanks for the input!

 

[Chrysostom83]

Also, forgot to mention, it's quite puzzling yesterday the batch, which I still believe is quite possible over-flavoured, tasted a lot and came off as strong, this morning as I refilled my clearo (aspire bdc) I got nearly nothing and therefore wrote the first post. Now, after sitting in the clearo for a few hours the taste seemed to once again have returned strongly. Now the rum-aspect of it is almost too much. It's the stuff that can drive people crazy, ever changing taste.

I'll try your ideas, because you might be right. Less flavour should do the trick. But right now the batch I've made seems to work. Not sure what's going on. Could it be that since the batch is only 2 days old (although it has been steeped) that the tastes have not come together fully yet? I mean, I get that taste is subjective and that some people advocate just a few percentages and others 20-30% of one taste and that less often is more.

I've managed to create quite a few well-tasting recipes, this one is the only one really causing problems. I'll keep you posted of any developments.

 

[we2rcool]

Thank you, both of you for the insight. I'll try lowering the percentages as you suggested - I've done so before, in a previous mix but I honestly didn't think it tasted that much - however, back then I was adding ACV and suspected it muted the flavours. I'm aware of the long steep time for BHT. Right now I steep my juices using an ultrasonic cleaner for about 2.5 hours and then let them sit for 24 hours.

I hope it's a case of over-flavouring, I've been mulling over that thought myself. I'll mix something up tomorrow and report back. Hopefully that batch will taste more.

Btw, do you know any other way to make flavours pop a little, like adding 1% brown sugar or something? Especially rum-based flavours (that's why I thought of using molasses).

Once again, thanks for the input!

You're absolutely correct about the ACV - it temporarily pops flavors, and then it kills them permanently (more on that below).

If you'll be sure the ultrasonic is heating the juices to at least 150 degrees F, and run it for four hours, you'll almost always have perfectly steeped juices (more on that below). It took our Black Honey Tobacco 4 hours at 150F plus anothe week on the shelf.

And yes, we DO know something that will pop flavors (and relieve dry mouth/sinuses)...and that's adding a bit of .9% sterile saline solution.

From here (Post #413) http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-11.html

And here's a link to the same thread with all our posts containing the word: saline http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/search.php?searchid=22931168 (I just tested it and seems to work, but if it doesn't just search the thread for our posts + saline) Everyone that has tried it (that has posted) has found it to be a great addition to their juices.

As far as I can recall, I was the one who tested lemon juice and the effects it had on fruit flavors. At the time I was also using sucralose (ezsweets) in fruit/bakery flavors. I also tested distilled vinegar (not acv, I dont use it) on tobaccos.

What I found with fruit and bakery vapes is they were great initally with the additives, for about two days. Then on day 3 like clockwork the sharpness/crispness of the flavor was just... plain... gone. It never rebounded either. It just continued decline. So I started testing the same juices with lemon juice and sucralose separately. Trying to find the culprit. The result in my tests was that they BOTH decrease flavor output of ejuice. While they help initally boost and sweeten flavor, within a few days, they both cause ejuice to simply go flat. While its a more dramatic example, I feel the same way about ejuice with lemon or sucralose as I do about flat soda pop. Its just lackluster.

This occured in both high VG bases at 80% and high PG bases at 80%. I tested both because I didnt want people calling me out saying VG mutes flavor, which to this day I refute as utter nonsense.

I no longer use either in any of my mixing. I have found that using fruit flavors with alcohol bases provide more than enuff sweetening o. their own if they are steeped for 48-72 hours, and it helps that I use 80%VG in my juice.

As far as tobaccos go I also agree vinegar that after a few days it can flatten flavors over time. However!!! As I vape mostly tobacco ejuices I still add 1 drop/5ml of distilled white vinegar to my vapes. To counter the flattening I adjust by adding slightly more flavoring. About .5% to 1% more flavoring in a final mix. In my experience this counters the effect of flavor flattening with DV and allows mostly all tobacco vapes to round out immediately. (note: i also heat steep my juices at a constant 150° in a water bath in a crock pot for four hours after mixing and have found it it adds about 2 weeks to the aging process of ejuice). At the 2 weeks mark (in my case then this is 4 hours after mixing), all of your tobacco flavors will have a spike in flavor and will stay there, but only round more given time. Giving you a spiked up flavor but still rounded body to your vape. I found apple cider vinegar made bad and good juuces worse with no spike at all, but to be fair I barely ever tested acv.

All of my vapes... yes read that as ALL... are primed and full bodied in four hours. Period. Ultrasonic isnt the answer either. Hand shaking is enuff for juice. Heat allows flavor dissipation and release FAR FAR better.

Alot of what I do flys in the face of common and well "documented" processes others use like ultrasonic steeping tho. (if it works for ya, great. I know what I know and heat is the key, not vibration. And yeah, I tested that too about three months ago so I stand behind it).

People just pretty much ignored my testing. I took painstaking measures to control the samples and.prove to myself the results. Today when people say they use lemon juice, or sucralose and RAVE about the results.... I know they are NOT vaping stellar juice. They are absolutely, positively, better off without both. Unless they are going to vape what they make in under two days.

Note: I did not bother testing the effects of citric acid powder in juice, but I assume it has the same effect as lemon juice and mutes flavors.

 

[Chrysostom83]

And yes, we DO know something that will pop flavors (and relieve dry mouth/sinuses)...and that's adding a bit of .9% sterile saline solution.

Interesting, thanks for the advice. I'll try and get some and do some testing. I read your posts in the other thread and if I understood correctly you mix the saline in your VG-base liquid. Is it possible to add straight as "flavouring" when mixing certain juices and if so, what % would you recommend? 9% of the percentage of the VG liquid? Or like 2-3% as a flavouring?

 

[we2rcool]

Interesting, thanks for the advice. I'll try and get some and do some testing. I read your posts in the other thread and if I understood correctly you mix the saline in your VG-base liquid. Is it possible to add straight as "flavouring" when mixing certain juices and if so, what % would you recommend? 9% of the percentage of the VG liquid? Or like 2-3% as a flavouring?

Right, we premix the vg, water, saline solution & pga...and plug it into the calculator as "VG". But you can use it as a 'flavor' any percentage you'd prefer (as long as it doesn't thin a strong PG mix too much). One person said they could taste it at 9%, and uses 5% quite successfully.